Shaq's defense vs. Jokic's offense

[Optms]

I would have to go back to the film. But I recall shaq in 2000's defense being really good. I don't recall it being anywhere close in 2001 or 2002. But xRAPM seems to think he dropped off in 2001 but recovered in 2002.

So I'd be interested in some takes there.

At the end of the day the issue is Shaq as dominate as he was...if you had the bodies to throw at him. You could limit his offensive dominance and without a Kobe/Penny/Wade...I'm not sure he wins with a Murray. So I'll take Jokic, but I'd be open to a strong case for him.

What absurdity.

How or who limited Shaq’s offensive dominance between 2000-2003? Unbelievable someone can even make this claim even without seeing prime Shaq. The numbers speak for themselves and they rank up there as one of the greatest peaks of all time. Almost as ridiculous as saying you could limit a prime Jordan.

There was no way Shaq was limited and there is no evidence for making that claim. In actuality, we have evidence of a prime Joker being limited by a smaller team in OKC just last season and without huge bodies. But you are still taking Joker? Alright.

[dhsilv2]

I would have to go back to the film. But I recall shaq in 2000's defense being really good. I don't recall it being anywhere close in 2001 or 2002. But xRAPM seems to think he dropped off in 2001 but recovered in 2002.

So I'd be interested in some takes there.

At the end of the day the issue is Shaq as dominate as he was...if you had the bodies to throw at him. You could limit his offensive dominance and without a Kobe/Penny/Wade...I'm not sure he wins with a Murray. So I'll take Jokic, but I'd be open to a strong case for him.

What absurdity.

How or who limited Shaq’s offensive dominance between 2000-2003? Unbelievable someone can even make this claim even without seeing prime Shaq. The numbers speak for themselves and they rank up there as one of the greatest peaks of all time. Almost as ridiculous as saying you could limit a prime Jordan.

There was no way Shaq was limited and there is no evidence for making that claim. In actuality, we have evidence of a prime Joker being limited by a smaller team in OKC just last season and without huge bodies. But you are still taking Joker? Alright.

You can limit any player in NBA history. Fouling Shaq did just that. It limited his ability to exert his max value offensively.

Now it seems you're saying you never saw prime Shaq which is odd. But as someone who did see him and went back and rewatched him, he very clearly did have one of the most dominate peaks ever. He also very clearly was limited by those fouls and the free throws.

[kcktiny]

I am a Jokic fanboy,

There's medication for that.

but a greater fan of basketball and good discussion

Good. Let's get at it.

You either believe: a) Dikembe Mutombo is a better player in total than Nikola Jokic

Never said this. Never hinted this (at least not yet). Only posted Mutombo defense > Jokic offense.

OR b) Shaq's defense is NOT worth more than Jokic's offense.

Never said this - either. Posted just the opposite.

You cannot logically defend both a) and b) at the same time

Hey Socrates where you going with this?

Because you said: Mutombo D > Shaq D > Jokic O, which given Jokic is defensively mediocre

Wow a Jokic fanboy admitting this. This is an historic occasion.

leads to: Mutombo > Jokic

How?

Look. Before we get into this let's make sure you know just exactly who Dikembe Mutombo is (err, was, unfortunately), because it's clear you do in fact know who Jokic is (mediocre defender).

Jokic has played 10 years in the league. Did you know that in Mutombo's first 10 years (1991-92 to 2000-01) in the league he lead all NBA players in:

- defensive rebounds (6593)
- blocks (2646), and no one else was within 582 blocks (that's like 2 additional seasons of 291 blocks each)
- and offensive rebounds (2861)
- total rebounds (9454), and 1100+ more rebounds than any other player in the league
- 8th in FTAs despite scoring just 12-13 pts/g

That's one player - just one single player - that over an entire decade lead the league in all 3 categories (OReb, DReb, blocks). That's damned impressive.

Want even more impressive? He did this in an era with Shaq, and Olajuwon, and DRob, and Kemp, and Mourning, and Barkley, etc. all playing 9-10 of those seasons.

Not only that - during that time Mutombo was named DPOY four times, most ever named by a player in league history (tied with Ben Wallace).

Was he mediocre on offense like Jokic is on defense? You tell me. Over an entire decade Mutombo was first in the league in offensive rebounds, and also 8th in FTAs. Sounds to me like the kind of C I'd love on my team - an all-time great defender, an offensive rebounder, and a C that can draw fouls.

In that decade he averaged playing 76 games/season and 2771 minutes/season. Played 3000+ minutes in a season twice and 2900+ minutes in a season five times. As durable as they come.

He averaged playing more minutes in a season over an entire decade than Jokic has ever actually played in just a single season.

Not only that, but you said you started watching the NBA (with orthodoxy) in what 1995-96? If so then that means you've seen a player block 300+ shots in a season just twice - just twice in 30 years. Mutombo in 1995-96 and Theo Ratliff in 2003-04.

Wemby blocked 254 shots in a season 2 years ago, and that was the first time a player had blocked as many as 250 shots in a season in 8 years, and only the second time in 17 years.

So you (and anyone not watching the NBA prior to 1995-96) really have no concept of the impact of a defensive minded C blocking 300+ shots a year, let alone one that does so over a number of seasons.

And the fact is Mutombo had a stretch of six straight seasons where he averaged 300+ blocks/season (1992-93 to 1997-98), while also grabbing both the 2nd most offensive rebounds and the 2nd most defensive rebounds by any player in the league. All while being a legitimate DPOY candidate each season.

So is Mutumbo > Jokic?

I'll tell you this much - I'd take a single season from a C that plays 76+ games and close to 3000 minutes a season, 37-38 min/g, that blocks 300+ shots and is both a very good offensive and defensive rebounder, that is a DPOY or all-defensive 1st team candidate, and that draws fouls, over any season of Jokic, a player who in a decade in the league has not played as much as 2740 minutes in a single season and who has once - and only once - played as much as 2600 minutes in a season.

[SonicMcMahon]

I am a Jokic fanboy,

There's medication for that.

but a greater fan of basketball and good discussion

Good. Let's get at it.

You either believe: a) Dikembe Mutombo is a better player in total than Nikola Jokic

Never said this. Never hinted this (at least not yet). Only posted Mutombo defense > Jokic offense.

OR b) Shaq's defense is NOT worth more than Jokic's offense.

Never said this - either. Posted just the opposite.

You cannot logically defend both a) and b) at the same time

Hey Socrates where you going with this?

Because you said: Mutombo D > Shaq D > Jokic O, which given Jokic is defensively mediocre

Wow a Jokic fanboy admitting this. This is an historic occasion.

leads to: Mutombo > Jokic

How?

Look. Before we get into this let's make sure you know just exactly who Dikembe Mutombo is (err, was, unfortunately), because it's clear you do in fact know who Jokic is (mediocre defender).

Jokic has played 10 years in the league. Did you know that in Mutombo's first 10 years (1991-92 to 2000-01) in the league he lead all NBA players in:

- defensive rebounds (6593)
- blocks (2646), and no one else was within 582 blocks (that's like 2 additional seasons of 291 blocks each)
- and offensive rebounds (2861)
- total rebounds (9454), and 1100+ more rebounds than any other player in the league
- 8th in FTAs despite scoring just 12-13 pts/g

That's one player - just one single player - that over an entire decade lead the league in all 3 categories (OReb, DReb, blocks). That's damned impressive.

Want even more impressive? He did this in an era with Shaq, and Olajuwon, and DRob, and Kemp, and Mourning, and Barkley, etc. all playing 9-10 of those seasons.

Not only that - during that time Mutombo was named DPOY four times, most ever named by a player in league history (tied with Ben Wallace).

Was he mediocre on offense like Jokic is on defense? You tell me. Over an entire decade Mutombo was first in the league in offensive rebounds, and also 8th in FTAs. Sounds to me like the kind of C I'd love on my team - an all-time great defender, an offensive rebounder, and a C that can draw fouls.

In that decade he averaged playing 76 games/season and 2771 minutes/season. Played 3000+ minutes in a season twice and 2900+ minutes in a season five times. As durable as they come.

He averaged playing more minutes in a season over an entire decade than Jokic has ever actually played in just a single season.

Not only that, but you said you started watching the NBA (with orthodoxy) in what 1995-96? If so then that means you've seen a player block 300+ shots in a season just twice - just twice in 30 years. Mutombo in 1995-96 and Theo Ratliff in 2003-04.

Wemby blocked 254 shots in a season 2 years ago, and that was the first time a player had blocked as many as 250 shots in a season in 8 years, and only the second time in 17 years.

So you (and anyone not watching the NBA prior to 1995-96) really have no concept of the impact of a defensive minded C blocking 300+ shots a year, let alone one that does so over a number of seasons.

And the fact is Mutombo had a stretch of six straight seasons where he averaged 300+ blocks/season (1992-93 to 1997-98), while also grabbing both the 2nd most offensive rebounds and the 2nd most defensive rebounds by any player in the league. All while being a legitimate DPOY candidate each season.

So is Mutumbo > Jokic?

I'll tell you this much - I'd take a single season from a C that plays 76+ games and close to 3000 minutes a season, 37-38 min/g, that blocks 300+ shots and is both a very good offensive and defensive rebounder, that is a DPOY or all-defensive 1st team candidate, and that draws fouls, over any season of Jokic, a player who in a decade in the league has not played as much as 2740 minutes in a single season and who has once - and only once - played as much as 2600 minutes in a season.

Honestly, that is fine. I totally disagree, but I'd rather we at least understand each other. Deke was an elite defender and rebounder and a swell guy to boot.

Until next time.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

What absurdity.

How or who limited Shaq’s offensive dominance between 2000-2003? Unbelievable someone can even make this claim even without seeing prime Shaq. The numbers speak for themselves and they rank up there as one of the greatest peaks of all time. Almost as ridiculous as saying you could limit a prime Jordan.

There was no way Shaq was limited and there is no evidence for making that claim. In actuality, we have evidence of a prime Joker being limited by a smaller team in OKC just last season and without huge bodies. But you are still taking Joker? Alright.

Shaq had a long history of getting swept out of the PO, before 2000. There's tons of evidence showing that Shaq could be limited, without the right supporting cast and against the right opponents.
As it's true for everybody, of course. But I feel people are losing touch of the difference between highlights Shaq and the real one, on both sides of the court.
And they are also not understanding howbmuch more difficult it would be for Shaq ro play the way he did in the modern NBA.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I know it's not the end of all, but if we look at 3y def RAPM we have, according to NBARAPM.com:
Shaq
99 +1.5
00 +1.2
01 -0.9
02 +0.4
Jokic
22 0.0
23 +0.8
24 +2.3
25 +1.1

I really see no eviden e that Shaq was a vastly superior defender, even relative to era.

[moderndarwin]

what a wild topic.

Shaq would destroy Joker. shaq when it mattered absolutely was a super elite defender. he’d crush joker.

[kcktiny]

I know it's not the end of all, but if we look at 3y def RAPM we have, according to NBARAPM.com:
Shaq
99 +1.5
00 +1.2
01 -0.9
02 +0.4
Jokic
22 0.0
23 +0.8
24 +2.3
25 +1.1

I really see no evidence that Shaq was a vastly superior defender, even relative to era.

From 1998-99 to 2001-02 the Lakers as a team allowed the 4th lowest opponent 2pt FG% at just 44.8%. Shaq was on the floor 70% of the time for the Lakers, had 662 blocks, no one else on the team had more than 262 blocks.

From 2021-22 to 2024-25 Denver as a team allowed the 12th lowest opponent 2pt FG% at 54.2%. Jokic was on the floor 64% of the time for the Nuggets, had just 160 blocks (that's an average of just 40 per season), and even 6-7 Peyton Watson - who played less than half the time Jokic did - had more blocks than Jokic.

What do you see now?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I know it's not the end of all, but if we look at 3y def RAPM we have, according to NBARAPM.com:
Shaq
99 +1.5
00 +1.2
01 -0.9
02 +0.4
Jokic
22 0.0
23 +0.8
24 +2.3
25 +1.1

I really see no evidence that Shaq was a vastly superior defender, even relative to era.

From 1998-99 to 2001-02 the Lakers as a team allowed the 4th lowest opponent 2pt FG% at just 44.8%. Shaq was on the floor 70% of the time for the Lakers, had 662 blocks, no one else on the team had more than 262 blocks.

From 2021-22 to 2024-25 Denver as a team allowed the 12th lowest opponent 2pt FG% at 54.2%. Jokic was on the floor 64% of the time for the Nuggets, had just 160 blocks (that's an average of just 40 per season), and even 6-7 Peyton Watson - who played less than half the time Jokic did - had more blocks than Jokic.

What do you see now?

I still see no real evidence, as there's more to defense than opp 2pt% and there are other players on the floor.
RAPM might be noisy, but great defenders have many seasons over +3.5 (Timmeh, Garnett, Wallace, Gobert), bad defenders are consistently in very negative territories (Amare, Towns).
Shaq and Jokic have different strengths and weaknesses, but a similar signal. In this thread you argue like we had a Gobert vs Towns comparison, when this is very obviously not true.

[kcktiny]

I still see no real evidence

Exactly what a true Jokic fanboy would say. Deny what is true to make your obsession look better than he is.

as there's more to defense than opp 2pt%

Again, exactly what a Jokic fanboy would say, knowing Jokic is so poor in interior shot defense.

Care to explain to all of us what is more important to a team's defense than holding your opponent to as low a 2pt FG% as possible? The past 4 seasons league-wide 60% of all FGAs have been 2pt FGAs.

you argue like we had a Gobert vs Towns comparison

Excellent comparison.

Because just this past 2024-25 season of the 37 players to face 450+ FGAs on defense from <10' of the basket, Towns allowed the 2nd highest/worst FG% at 61.5%, Jokic the 5th highest/worst FG% at 61.1%, and Gobert was best allowing the lowest FG% at just 49.8%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt10?CF=FGA_LT_10*GE*450&PerMode=Totals&Season=2024-25&dir=D&sort=LT_10_PCT

Jokic was just as bad in 2023-24, among the 58 players to face 450+ FGAs on defense from <10' of the basket allowing the 8th highest/worst FG% at 59.7%, 2nd best being Gobert at 47.9%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt10?CF=FGA_LT_10*GE*450&PerMode=Totals&Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=LT_10_PCT

Or in 2022-23, Jokic among the 56 players to face 450+ FGAs on defense from <10' of the basket allowing the 10th highest/worst FG% at 60.1%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt10?CF=FGA_LT_10*GE*450&PerMode=Totals&Season=2022-23&dir=D&sort=LT_10_PCT

What do you see now? You see a pattern here?

when this is very obviously not true.

Look - we get it, you really like Jokic. Great passer, heckuva a player on offense.

But you have blinders on when it comes to his defense as you ignore true data versus some mathematical concoction that professes to measure defense and clearly does not.

You have difficulty comprehending what is in fact true.

Shaq and Jokic have different strengths and weaknesses, but a similar signal.

The past 8 seasons (2017-18 to 2024-25) Denver has allowed the 8th highest/worst 2pt FG% on defense among the 30 teams in the league. And Jokic played - by far - the most minutes on the team, 4846 minutes more than any other Nuggets player, 1/8 to 1/7 of the team's total minutes played.

The Lakers with Shaq in 8 seasons (1996-97 to 2003-04) allowed on defense a league 5th best/lowest 45.4% 2pt FG%.

Don't plan on joining the signal corp any time soon.

RAPM might be noisy, but great defenders have many seasons over +3.5 (Timmeh, Garnett, Wallace, Gobert), bad defenders are consistently in very negative territories (Amare, Towns).

Really? What does it show for all-time great defenders like Gary Payton and Alvin Robertson?

Shaq had a long history of getting swept out of the PO

Are you lucid? His 8 seasons with the Lakers they had 78 playoff wins. No other team had more that 53. Oh, and 3 championships.

There's tons of evidence showing that Shaq could be limited

Shaq has 4 NBA titles - was all-NBA 1st team 8 times (7 consecutive) - and this is your assessment of him?

But I feel people are losing touch of the difference between highlights Shaq and the real one, on both sides of the court.

If anyone has lost touch here it is clearly you.

[GrindCityHustle]

Teams can figure out Jokic in the playoffs if he is gassed or unmotivated. If he is motivated he plays like the Dream with that passing. Truly a marvel to watch. He is definitely more enjoyable to watch than Shaq if you like spacing basketball

Shaq is just Shaq. Even with the free throw percentage and lack of range dude is still like the best big man of all time after Wilt. When he was in full motivation mode I don't think you could stop him which is why Kobe couldn't figure out why slack with that lack of talent. That's Kobe talking so he just don't give compliments out lightly.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I still see no real evidence

Exactly what a true Jokic fanboy would say. Deny what is true to make your obsession look better than he is.

as there's more to defense than opp 2pt%

Again, exactly what a Jokic fanboy would say, knowing Jokic is so poor in interior shot defense.

Care to explain to all of us what is more important to a team's defense than holding your opponent to as low a 2pt FG% as possible? The past 4 seasons league-wide 60% of all FGAs have been 2pt FGAs.

you argue like we had a Gobert vs Towns comparison

Excellent comparison.

Because just this past 2024-25 season of the 37 players to face 450+ FGAs on defense from <10' of the basket, Towns allowed the 2nd highest/worst FG% at 61.5%, Jokic the 5th highest/worst FG% at 61.1%, and Gobert was best allowing the lowest FG% at just 49.8%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt10?CF=FGA_LT_10*GE*450&PerMode=Totals&Season=2024-25&dir=D&sort=LT_10_PCT

Jokic was just as bad in 2023-24, among the 58 players to face 450+ FGAs on defense from <10' of the basket allowing the 8th highest/worst FG% at 59.7%, 2nd best being Gobert at 47.9%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt10?CF=FGA_LT_10*GE*450&PerMode=Totals&Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=LT_10_PCT

Or in 2022-23, Jokic among the 56 players to face 450+ FGAs on defense from <10' of the basket allowing the 10th highest/worst FG% at 60.1%:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt10?CF=FGA_LT_10*GE*450&PerMode=Totals&Season=2022-23&dir=D&sort=LT_10_PCT

What do you see now? You see a pattern here?

when this is very obviously not true.

Look - we get it, you really like Jokic. Great passer, heckuva a player on offense.

But you have blinders on when it comes to his defense as you ignore true data versus some mathematical concoction that professes to measure defense and clearly does not.

You have difficulty comprehending what is in fact true.

Shaq and Jokic have different strengths and weaknesses, but a similar signal.

The past 8 seasons (2017-18 to 2024-25) Denver has allowed the 8th highest/worst 2pt FG% on defense among the 30 teams in the league. And Jokic played - by far - the most minutes on the team, 4846 minutes more than any other Nuggets player, 1/8 to 1/7 of the team's total minutes played.

The Lakers with Shaq in 8 seasons (1996-97 to 2003-04) allowed on defense a league 5th best/lowest 45.4% 2pt FG%.

Don't plan on joining the signal corp any time soon.

RAPM might be noisy, but great defenders have many seasons over +3.5 (Timmeh, Garnett, Wallace, Gobert), bad defenders are consistently in very negative territories (Amare, Towns).

Really? What does it show for all-time great defenders like Gary Payton and Alvin Robertson?

Shaq had a long history of getting swept out of the PO

Are you lucid? His 8 seasons with the Lakers they had 78 playoff wins. No other team had more that 53. Oh, and 3 championships.

There's tons of evidence showing that Shaq could be limited

Shaq has 4 NBA titles - was all-NBA 1st team 8 times (7 consecutive) - and this is your assessment of him?

But I feel people are losing touch of the difference between highlights Shaq and the real one, on both sides of the court.

If anyone has lost touch here it is clearly you.

not worth answering. bye!