Can we admit the obvious yet? Jokic is the greatest offensive player ever

[atlantabbq99]

Wilt is better but Joker is making a strong argument for being 1b.

[SOA]

The answer is still no. Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.

This video game era of basketball has polluted a lot of thinking.

[EmpireFalls]

Steph: only won rings with HOFers. KD, Green
LeBron: only has won rings with HOFers. Wade, Kyrie, AD
Jordan: only won rings with HOFers. Pippen, and then Rodman
Magic: only won rings with HOFers. Kareem, Cooper, Worthy
Bird: only won rings with HOFers. McHale and Parish

If anything the list of guys you just gave, just should reinforce Jokic’s offensive greatness. He got a ring without having a HOF teammate.

All I think that proves is GOAT potential. If he gives us 6 years of offensive dominance I’m happy to give it to him. Until then I’m going to stick with the guys who have proven it beyond doubt

Jokic is showing why this “rangz” argument is so dumb. I honestly hope he keeps up this play for another like 6-7 years and keeps losing in 2nd rounds, due the TEAM he’s on. Maybe, just maybe, people will actually start understanding a few things about this sport.

All of your “rangz” leaders in your precious top tens, change their career paths from day one to lesser teams and they win exactly ZERO rangz lol

My argument has actually nothing to do with rings

I remain steadfast in my terms: 8-10 years of elite playoff offensive results, leading elite playoff offenses. Every single offensive GOAT candidate has done this, except for the “obvious” offensive GOAT in Jokic.

That would of course require you to read.

[Tha Cynic]

In a regular season where you're not allowed to defend I have a hard time crowning anyone based on those achievements.

Now do you really believe him to be the greatest offensive player in the NBA playoffs that you have ever seen?

lol what? Is this just a random comment? The dude had been elite in the playoffs

[Chuck Everett]

In a regular season where you're not allowed to defend I have a hard time crowning anyone based on those achievements.

Now do you really believe him to be the greatest offensive player in the NBA playoffs that you have ever seen?

lol what? Is this just a random comment? The dude had been elite in the playoffs

Not random at all. You didn't even answer the question I posed. Do you believe him to be the greatest offensive player in the NBA Playoffs that the league has ever seen?

I don't believe him to be that. You may disagree. That doesn't mean he hasn't been elite in the playoffs.

[The Explorer]

I call it like it is brother. I'm a straight shooter who only deals in facts.

I don't think you know what the word fact means.

LeBron is obviously still the GOAT,

Opinion

but Jokic is the offensive GOAT

Opinion

Jokic has done the best he can with his surrounding cast. Swap him with SGA and swap Hartenstein for the guard equivalent of him (impact wise) and Joker wins a title every damn season.

Hypothetical. Not a fact

and will be a GOAT candidate when all is said and done.

Prediction. Not a fact

[MavsDirk41]

All time nba OBPM leaders

Jokic 7.43
Jordan 7.17
James 6.86
Luka 6.51
Curry 6.24

Jokic certainly has a case for the greatest all time offensive player. Surprised he leads Jordan in this category.

Jokic has the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th highest BPMs of all time with Lebron sandwiched in at 3rd and Jordan not showing up until 6th which I thought was odd. This is one of the obvious cases of a stat not working as intended once you look into how its calculated. Jokic gets a 2x multiplier on his assists in the stat simply for being a center. It's an outdated methodology that Jokic is uniquely capable of exploiting given what an exceptional playmaker he is.

Similarly, Westbrook broke the original BPM and was topping the all time lists during his prime due to a similar issue with their methodology but in his case it was guard rebounds instead of center assists. They eventually had to correct that in BPM 2.0 and BPM 3.0 will most likely correct this center assist exploit.

Long story short you should take most if not all of his box score based advanced stats with a grain of salt.

No arguing with what you are saying, just thought it was interesting statistics. I dont think he is the greatest offensive player ever, but i think he is one of the most unique players that i have ever seen. He has a skill set similar to Larry Bird, just in a bigger, less unathletic body.

[sikma42]

All I think that proves is GOAT potential. If he gives us 6 years of offensive dominance I’m happy to give it to him. Until then I’m going to stick with the guys who have proven it beyond doubt

Jokic is showing why this “rangz” argument is so dumb. I honestly hope he keeps up this play for another like 6-7 years and keeps losing in 2nd rounds, due the TEAM he’s on. Maybe, just maybe, people will actually start understanding a few things about this sport.

All of your “rangz” leaders in your precious top tens, change their career paths from day one to lesser teams and they win exactly ZERO rangz lol

My argument has actually nothing to do with rings

I remain steadfast in my terms: 8-10 years of elite playoff offensive results, leading elite playoff offenses. Every single offensive GOAT candidate has done this, except for the “obvious” offensive GOAT in Jokic.

That would of course require you to read.

So it’s a team achievement.

[Tha Cynic]

In a regular season where you're not allowed to defend I have a hard time crowning anyone based on those achievements.

Now do you really believe him to be the greatest offensive player in the NBA playoffs that you have ever seen?

lol what? Is this just a random comment? The dude had been elite in the playoffs

Not random at all. You didn't even answer the question I posed. Do you believe him to be the greatest offensive player in the NBA Playoffs that the league has ever seen?

I don't believe him to be that. You may disagree. That doesn't mean he hasn't been elite in the playoffs.

I think I quoted the wrong post. I was actually typing this to the poster who said he has not shown this in the playoffs.

But I do think he is the greatest offensive of all time. If he was black American and played for a top American city he would definitely be getting way more recognition

[MavsDirk41]

I will say this as a pro MJ way to view this.

MJ vs his peers

MJ: 7.17
Magic: 5.93
Barkley: 5.36
Bird: 5.12

Now granted this is just one stat. But I think it’s safe to say it’s not always apples to apples when trying to compare different generations.

Going with this stat, I think you can make the argument that no one was a better offensive player vs his era and peers than MJ.

I think Bird was more skilled in that he had absolutely no weaknesses offensively but Jordan was more dominant offensively. And Jordan obviously had to carry a bigger load as Bird played with more offensive talent.

Ya that’s a good debate to have. Because I do agree I think Bird checked off more boxes. But the level of dominance by MJ can’t be overlooked either.

It would kind of like having a Jokic vs Shaq debate. Jokic the far more versatile player on offense. But prime Shaq was just so damn dominant. And he did that against some elite big men defenders. What would you prefer to have, the ultimate versatility guy, or just the sheer dominant guy.

I personally would go Jokic. But if someone says Shaq, I don’t have much of an argument against it. I grew up watching prime Shaq, there was no such thing as even slowing him down when he was fully checked in.

I would have liked to know how Jokic would have performed against bigs of the 90s….Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Mutumbo. Other than Embiid who is always hurt, there isnt any bigs with his size and skill set.

[Tha Cynic]

I think Bird was more skilled in that he had absolutely no weaknesses offensively but Jordan was more dominant offensively. And Jordan obviously had to carry a bigger load as Bird played with more offensive talent.

Ya that’s a good debate to have. Because I do agree I think Bird checked off more boxes. But the level of dominance by MJ can’t be overlooked either.

It would kind of like having a Jokic vs Shaq debate. Jokic the far more versatile player on offense. But prime Shaq was just so damn dominant. And he did that against some elite big men defenders. What would you prefer to have, the ultimate versatility guy, or just the sheer dominant guy.

I personally would go Jokic. But if someone says Shaq, I don’t have much of an argument against it. I grew up watching prime Shaq, there was no such thing as even slowing him down when he was fully checked in.

I would have liked to know how Jokic would have performed against bigs of the 90s….Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Mutumbo. Other than Embiid who is always hurt, there isnt any bigs with his size and skill set.

He’s probably the finished version of Shaq so I expect he would do very well. Would be interesting to see him and Shaq go at it. Brute strength and some finesse vs ultimate finesse and brute strength

[MavsDirk41]

Ya that’s a good debate to have. Because I do agree I think Bird checked off more boxes. But the level of dominance by MJ can’t be overlooked either.

It would kind of like having a Jokic vs Shaq debate. Jokic the far more versatile player on offense. But prime Shaq was just so damn dominant. And he did that against some elite big men defenders. What would you prefer to have, the ultimate versatility guy, or just the sheer dominant guy.

I personally would go Jokic. But if someone says Shaq, I don’t have much of an argument against it. I grew up watching prime Shaq, there was no such thing as even slowing him down when he was fully checked in.

I would have liked to know how Jokic would have performed against bigs of the 90s….Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Mutumbo. Other than Embiid who is always hurt, there isnt any bigs with his size and skill set.

He’s probably the finished version of Shaq so I expect he would do very well. Would be interesting to see him and Shaq go at it. Brute strength and some finesse vs ultimate finesse and brute strength

I dont think Shaq would do a very good job defending Jokic at the 3 point line, and Jokic would prolly get Shaq in foul trouble. But on defense i think Jokic would struggle defending Shaq on the block. Young Shaq was extremely athletic and quick while older Shaq was just a beast. It would be a matchup for the ages. It would be like prime Jordan and prime Kobe going at it.

[Infinite Llamas]

I think Bird was more skilled in that he had absolutely no weaknesses offensively but Jordan was more dominant offensively. And Jordan obviously had to carry a bigger load as Bird played with more offensive talent.

Ya that’s a good debate to have. Because I do agree I think Bird checked off more boxes. But the level of dominance by MJ can’t be overlooked either.

It would kind of like having a Jokic vs Shaq debate. Jokic the far more versatile player on offense. But prime Shaq was just so damn dominant. And he did that against some elite big men defenders. What would you prefer to have, the ultimate versatility guy, or just the sheer dominant guy.

I personally would go Jokic. But if someone says Shaq, I don’t have much of an argument against it. I grew up watching prime Shaq, there was no such thing as even slowing him down when he was fully checked in.

I would have liked to know how Jokic would have performed against bigs of the 90s….Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Mutumbo. Other than Embiid who is always hurt, there isnt any bigs with his size and skill set.

I mean, for every Shaq and Hakeem there was an Ostertag or Terry Davis or Mark West or Oliver Miller. There were plenty of big men in the 90’s not up to snuff. Seattle made the Finals starting Ervin Johnson. Utah did it with Ostertag.

[Quattro]

In a regular season where you're not allowed to defend I have a hard time crowning anyone based on those achievements.

Now do you really believe him to be the greatest offensive player in the NBA playoffs that you have ever seen?

Nah. He just lives to start these passive aggressive anti MJ threads. Hes moved from LeBron to Jokic now.

MJ is the greatest offensive player ever OP. You know it. You can admit it.

[Daddy 801]

At this point I think so. I think you could replace him with any 1a star on a championship team and they still win. I am not convinced you could do that with any other player.

I still have Jordan, Bron, and other players ahead of him in the Goat conversation. But there is no denying his offensive ability. What he is doing this season is beyond absurd. Joker has not had the supporting cast others have had. Only championship I can think of like Jokers is Dirks. Dirks championship is either the most impressive or really close to the most impressive. And what Joker is doing year after year is like what Dirk did on that championship run.

Joker is amazing. Not sure why people can’t just admit he’s on a generational run which is probably the best offensive run of all time. It’s either this run or Jordan’s prime as the best ever IMO.

I don’t really compare current players to players past the Bird and Magic era. It’s just to hard to compare what Wilt did. It’s such a different brand of basketball and the sport is so much larger and international that it’s basically futile IMO to bother comparing. So if someone has Wilt or Bill or whomever as their Goat or best offensive player I just say ok and move on. I didn’t see them play and I haven’t seen enough footage to say one way or another. And I think besides the really old heads most on here are in the same boat.

[AleksandarN]

The answer is still no. Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.

This video game era of basketball has polluted a lot of thinking.

What era is only valid in your books then?

[AleksandarN]

All I think that proves is GOAT potential. If he gives us 6 years of offensive dominance I’m happy to give it to him. Until then I’m going to stick with the guys who have proven it beyond doubt

Jokic is showing why this “rangz” argument is so dumb. I honestly hope he keeps up this play for another like 6-7 years and keeps losing in 2nd rounds, due the TEAM he’s on. Maybe, just maybe, people will actually start understanding a few things about this sport.

All of your “rangz” leaders in your precious top tens, change their career paths from day one to lesser teams and they win exactly ZERO rangz lol

My argument has actually nothing to do with rings

I remain steadfast in my terms: 8-10 years of elite playoff offensive results, leading elite playoff offenses. Every single offensive GOAT candidate has done this, except for the “obvious” offensive GOAT in Jokic.

That would of course require you to read.

You ignore context as usually. But that requires insight and intelligence.

[ballzboyee]

Efficiency and many advanced metrics are simply broken compared to past eras. TS% has gone parabolic in the last 7 or 8 years. Teams don't construct rosters anymore to defend elite bigs and instead prioritize guard skills that spread the floor and hunt for efficiency. So you have a lot of finesse lineups that have no answer for him. He can basically roam anywhere on the court and there is nothing anybody can do about it. You really need an Oakley-style defender or two to deal with somebody like Jokic, and teams simply do not have this level of physicality or defensive mentality on their rosters anymore. Teams can't slow the pace these days due to rule changes, so this allows Denver to run in him in a high post hub and just accumulate stats. Denver basically has a money-printing machine with Jokic right now.

Sure, he'll get all-star numbers regardless, but he's not experiencing anywhere close to the physical slugfest and grind-it-out pace that players used to face when teams would roll out the beef squad to make sure every offensive set is pure torture for the other team's star big. Go watch how teams would put bookend 7 footers against Barkley in the post and just beat the hell out of him. Couple the above trends with the refs having the green light to call cheap fouls, he basically can do whatever he wants out there. Teams have to be careful when guarding him or the run the risk of ruining their fourth quarter defensive matchup. They can't be hyper-aggressive, which is how he needs to be defended. Jokic needs to be touched up every time he gets the ball. No finesse possessions, ever.

Not saying he isn't great, but he is by no means the most skilled offensive player of all-time. Look at the big picture. His numbers are certainly somewhat of a product of the era.

[Alatan]

I think Bird was more skilled in that he had absolutely no weaknesses offensively but Jordan was more dominant offensively. And Jordan obviously had to carry a bigger load as Bird played with more offensive talent.

Ya that’s a good debate to have. Because I do agree I think Bird checked off more boxes. But the level of dominance by MJ can’t be overlooked either.

It would kind of like having a Jokic vs Shaq debate. Jokic the far more versatile player on offense. But prime Shaq was just so damn dominant. And he did that against some elite big men defenders. What would you prefer to have, the ultimate versatility guy, or just the sheer dominant guy.

I personally would go Jokic. But if someone says Shaq, I don’t have much of an argument against it. I grew up watching prime Shaq, there was no such thing as even slowing him down when he was fully checked in.

I would have liked to know how Jokic would have performed against bigs of the 90s….Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Mutumbo. Other than Embiid who is always hurt, there isnt any bigs with his size and skill set.

You can also turn this around and ask how would Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Mutambo do in the 3point spamming, freedom of movement era.

If anything the slower era with a more crowded paint would help teams hide Jokic on D. He might even play PF in such conditions.

Also this era also has had some good bigs that competed or still compete against Jokic. Embiid, Davis, Wembenyama, Towns. Heck, you can even throw in Gobert since some people think he is good.

[MavsDirk41]

Ya that’s a good debate to have. Because I do agree I think Bird checked off more boxes. But the level of dominance by MJ can’t be overlooked either.

It would kind of like having a Jokic vs Shaq debate. Jokic the far more versatile player on offense. But prime Shaq was just so damn dominant. And he did that against some elite big men defenders. What would you prefer to have, the ultimate versatility guy, or just the sheer dominant guy.

I personally would go Jokic. But if someone says Shaq, I don’t have much of an argument against it. I grew up watching prime Shaq, there was no such thing as even slowing him down when he was fully checked in.

I would have liked to know how Jokic would have performed against bigs of the 90s….Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Mutumbo. Other than Embiid who is always hurt, there isnt any bigs with his size and skill set.

I mean, for every Shaq and Hakeem there was an Ostertag or Terry Davis or Mark West or Oliver Miller. There were plenty of big men in the 90’s not up to snuff. Seattle made the Finals starting Ervin Johnson. Utah did it with Ostertag.

Yea Johnson started for Seattle but Perkins played more minutes at the 5. Perkins was always solid as a defender, shot blocker, and big with range. Ostertag kind of shared the 5 spot with Carr and Keefe in 98. But yea you are right, the Bulls won 6 titles wth Cartwright, Longley, Perdue, Stacy King, Bill Wennington and more scrubs at center.