Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation

[Baller 24]

Tracy McGrady led a team to the playoffs every year except 1 with a horrible supporting cast. He had Juwan Howard in the 2003-2004 season where they well basically tanked. Tracy McGrady in the 2002-2003 season was playing the best ball he has ever played, and yes IMO better then Wade ever has. His cast consisted of rookies Drew Gooden, and Gordan Gerick, Darell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, and Shawn Kemp, and he led them to the playoffs and was 1 game away from defeating the Pistons.

Dwayne Wade on the other hand made it to the 2nd round his rookie year without Shaq with Lamar Odom playing the best basketball of his career, Eddie Jones, Caron Butler, Haslem, Alston, Grant and Butler. And don't bring Grant Hill into this the guy averaged about 20 games a season while Tmac was in Orlando. Tmac hasn't ever had a cast as good as Wades. So IMO yes Wade is going to ultimately end up in that situation, if the Heat don't do something.

They have both played in the similar amounts of games the past 2 years, have put up almost similar stats, but Wade will receive less criticism because of that ring. And Tmac will receive more because of his playoff rep.

[BBallFreak]

Yes the situations are similar - anyone who says otherwise is just deluding themselves.

T-Mac supposedly gets criticized for not taking Orlando anywhere.

Wade took Miami to the playoffs every year but this one.

Had T-Mac taken the Magic to the second round his first year there, the conference finals his second year, and then to the Championship, would he have been criticized for not taking his team anywhere? NO!

That's why the situations are different. Whether the criticism is fair or not, you can't criticize Wade for the same thing...

[shaqfan1]

Tracy McGrady led a team to the playoffs every year except 1 with a horrible supporting cast. He had Juwan Howard in the 2003-2004 season where they well basically tanked. Tracy McGrady in the 2002-2003 season was playing the best ball he has ever played, and yes IMO better then Wade. His cast consisted of rookies Drew Gooden, and Gordan Gerick, Darell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, and Shawn Kemp, and he led them to the playoffs and was 1 game away from defeating the Pistons. Dwayne Wade on the other hand made it to the 2nd round his rookie year without Shaq with Lamar Odom playing the best basketball of his career, Eddie Jones, Caron Butler, Haslem, Alston, Grant and Butler. And don't bring Grant Hill into this the guy averaged about 20 games a season while Tmac was in Orlando. Tmac hasn't ever had a cast as good as Wades. So IMO yes Wade is going to ultimately end up in that situation, if the Heat don't do something.

Huh? Every offseason there's a thread about how Tmac's team is the best that he's ever had around him and how he will finally have playoff success. And every postseason he doesn't get out of the first round.

When Wade had a supporting cast Tmac has had for the past few years in Houston, he won a championship while Tmac was losing in the first round and not making the playoffs.

[Flash3]

Tracy McGrady in the 2002-2003 season was playing the best ball he has ever played, and yes IMO better then Wade ever has.

When you help lead your team to a title, and do it historically speaking, and put your name up with some of the GOATs/HOFs, you know you've done something special......

[Baller 24]

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When you help lead your team to a title, and do it historically speaking, and put your name up with some of the GOATs/HOFs, you know you've done something special......

Yeah but he did it with a cast that was about 100 times better then the 2002-2003 cast of Tmacs. And statistically Tmac was having his best season.

[Baller 24]

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Huh? Every offseason there's a thread about how Tmac's team is the best that he's ever had around him and how he will finally have playoff success. And every postseason he doesn't get out of the first round.

When Wade had a supporting cast Tmac has had for the past few years in Houston, he won a championship while Tmac was losing in the first round and not making the playoffs.

Yeah but their both different players currently. Tmac has decreased his effectivness in so many ways since leaving Orlando. He has turned into more of a playmaker, than a scorer. Sure the Rockets have a good supporting cast. But you have players like Shane Battier, Luther Head, Juwan Horward, and Chuck Hayes playing as your supporting cast. And that cast seriously has no experience, those players play well throughout the season. But when its time to shine in the playoffs there no where to be found. Just look at the stats from last seasons playoffs. While the Heat on the other hand have players like Shaq, Payton, Walker, Morning, and Posey who have been to the playoffs, have had success, and have LOADS of experience.

[Flash3]

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Yeah but he did it with a cast that was about 100 times better then the 2002-2003 cast of Tmacs. And statistically Tmac was having his best season.

I didn't say otherwise.

But, what you do in the playoffs always more times than not, speaks volumes about you as a player; see this thread going on here.....

[RoxFan08]

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Wade led the league in PER last year. That means statistically, he was the best player last year. How is that declining?

Tmac posted one of the top 10 PER seasons OF ALL TIME in 02-03, and STILL lost in the 1st round to Detroit. He is among the leaders in scoring per game ALL TIME in the postseason. His numbers in the Jazz series last year were RIDICULOUS! And yet the guy gets so much flak, so much flak. Tmac has only been on the team favored to win a playoff series ONCE in his career, which was last year. In those previous appearances, his team was considered a HEAVY underdog, yet they took the Pistons and Mavericks to seven.

LAST YEAR against the Jazz, the two teams were considered more or less even, the edge given to the Rockets due to home court advantage. Nothing more. They lost in the FINAL MINUTE of game 7, when his "great supporting cast" failed to get a defensive rebound following 3 consecutive shots.

The man is one of the greatest playoff performers in NBA history, and people crap all over his name with their hate. People compare him to people like Wade and Lebron, wondering why he can never get out of the 1st round. People fail to take into account the circumstances in which they played.

Lebron's Cavs made it to the finals last year. Anyone who thinks those Cavs could have beaten the Rockets in seven games, please feel free to raise your hand and be laughed at.

It's no secret that the 2 playoff appearances Tracy has made in a Rockets uni have been against teams that would EASILY have been a top 3 seed in the East that respective year. Hell, the Rockets themselves would have been #2 in the east last year. You don't really think they couldn't have beaten the Nets or whoever the hell else who makes the lower playoff spots in the East. He would be out of the 1st round, playing the Spurs in the finals, if Houston was just located about 1000 miles East.

People need to take into account circumstances before making blanket statements about great players like Tracy McGrady. No one has ever been expected to do so much with so little.

He's not Hakeem Olajuwon, one of the only players to have won a title with a worthless support cast. But anyone who thinks he isn't a top 15 player, especially if its based on the fact he's a "first round virgin", needs to have their heads examined.

[Baller 24]

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I didn't say otherwise.

But, what you do in the playoffs always more times than not, speaks volumes about you as a player; see this thread going on here.....

Yeah thats true, thats why Wade currently is recieving less criticism then Tmac, even though both have played in almost the same exact games and averaged almost the same stats year in and year out. Tmac's inability to get himself out of the first round gives him so much more criticism. The Ring makes a whole lot difference if what I'm trying to say.

[shaqfan1]

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Yeah but there both different players currently. Tmac is decreased his effectivness in so many ways since leaving Orlando. He has turned into more of a playmaker, than a scorer. Sure the Rockets have a good supporting cast. But you have players like Shane Battier, Luther Head, Juwan Horward, and Chuck Hayes playing as your supporting cast. And is that cast seriously has no experience, those players play well throughout the season. But when its time to shine in the playoffs there no where to be found. Just look at the stats from last season playoffs.

Tmac still has a 25/10 center with him.
Tmac still has one of the best defenders/role player in the league with him.
Tmac still has Rafer Alston, Steve Francis (a former All-Star), and Mike James (averaged 20+ for the Raptors) to play point guard for him.
Tmac still has Chuck Hayes who, according to Rockets fans, is one of the better defenders at pf.
Tmac still has has two forwards off the bench (or starting, I'm not sure) that'll give him 10 and 5 each off the bench.
Tmac still has Luther Head, one of the best 3 point shooters last year.

Seriously, the excuses for Tmac not getting out of the first round were understandable when he was playing with the Magic, but now they're just getting ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be getting out of the first round. Blaming his lack of success on his teammates has to stop. Seriously, whose fault is it that the Rockets are this bad this season? Can you honestly sit there and blame anyone but Tmac for the Rockets bad record this season? It's completely his fault and its stupid when his fans don't accept.

And its stupider to compare Tmac to Wade. Wade has proven that when he has a semi good supporting cast around him, he can bring you success in the playoffs. Tmac hasn't.

[nycballer718]

theres a reason why ppl consider the heat one of the worst championship teams of alltime and not just cause they think the refs were bad ... the roster wasn't that great ...wade carried a bunch of avg players and single handely willed them to the finals putting up 40 ppg in the last 4 games ... a player has to be special when u got a washed up shaq, fatoine walker and jwill as starters in ur lineup when u win a championship ...

[Storm Surge]

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Tmac still has a 25/10 center with him.
Tmac still has one of the best defenders/role player in the league with him.
Tmac still has Rafer Alston, Steve Francis (a former All-Star), and Mike James (averaged 20+ for the Raptors) to play point guard for him.
Tmac still has Chuck Hayes who, according to Rockets fans, is one of the better defenders at pf.
Tmac still has has two forwards off the bench (or starting, I'm not sure) that'll give him 10 and 5 each off the bench.
Tmac still has Luther Head, one of the best 3 point shooters last year.

Seriously, the excuses for Tmac not getting out of the first round were understandable when he was playing with the Magic, but now they're just getting ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be getting out of the first round. Blaming his lack of success on his teammates has to stop. Seriously, whose fault is it that the Rockets are this bad this season? Can you honestly sit there and blame anyone but Tmac for the Rockets bad record this season? It's completely his fault and its stupid when his fans don't accept.

And its stupider to compare Tmac to Wade. Wade has proven that when he has a semi good supporting cast around him, he can bring you success in the playoffs. Tmac hasn't.

Shaq is a former MVP, most dominant in the league, Finals MVP, one of the top 5 Centers in the game(if you're going to use Francis former All Star)
Alonzo Mourning is a DPOY/shotblocking machine(if you're going to use Francis who is injured, Alonzo counts too)
Ricky Davis is a 20 PPG scorer
Jason Williams aka White Chocolate is one of the more exciting PGs to watch.
Haslem is a great PF and a great rebounder, shuts down Dirk so is a great defender.
Cook has shown the ability to play very well as a rookie
Wright according to Heat fans has crazy potential and has shown the ability to live up to it
Blount can stretch the defense like no other C
Wade is in the worst division in the worst Conference by far

Your examples are so flawed.

[jzmagik]

theres a reason why ppl consider the heat one of the worst championship teams of alltime and not just cause they think the refs were bad ... the roster wasn't that great ...wade carried a bunch of avg players and single handely willed them to the finals putting up 40 ppg in the last 4 games ... a player has to be special when u got a washed up shaq, fatoine walker and jwill as starters in ur lineup when u win a championship ...

Jwill and Antoined both had great playoff performances when they won the chip, and Shaq was still being argued as the best center in the league ahead of Yao lol.. Wade did not singlehandedly carry his team, its a misconception. The title of single-handedly carrying a team belongs to the likes of Hakeem.

[RoxFan08]

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Tmac still has a 25/10 center with him.
Tmac still has one of the best defenders/role player in the league with him.
Tmac still has Rafer Alston, Steve Francis (a former All-Star), and Mike James (averaged 20+ for the Raptors) to play point guard for him.
Tmac still has Chuck Hayes who, according to Rockets fans, is one of the better defenders at pf.
Tmac still has has two forwards off the bench (or starting, I'm not sure) that'll give him 10 and 5 each off the bench.
Tmac still has Luther Head, one of the best 3 point shooters last year.

Seriously, the excuses for Tmac not getting out of the first round were understandable when he was playing with the Magic, but now they're just getting ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be getting out of the first round. Blaming his lack of success on his teammates has to stop. Seriously, whose fault is it that the Rockets are this bad this season? Can you honestly sit there and blame anyone but Tmac for the Rockets bad record this season? It's completely his fault and its stupid when his fans don't accept.

And its stupider to compare Tmac to Wade. Wade has proven that when he has a semi good supporting cast around him, he can bring you success in the playoffs. Tmac hasn't.

What. The. Hell. Dude. You have some serious, Serious man hate on Tmac. Last I checked:

Basketball is played 5v5.

Rafer Alston on a good day is a top 25 PG, Steve Francis and Mike James aren't even worth mentioning. I cannot believe you had the guts (stupidity?) to bring Francis' former all star days and James' Toronto days into the discussion. THEY BOTH SUCK NOW!! What they've done in the past is completely irrelevant, especially since the last time Tmac last in the first round, NEITHER ONE OF THEM WAS HERE!

Chuck Hayes is probably a bottom 5 starting PF, and in fact has a case as the worst starter in the league. He plays great defense, but the man is an offensive black hole. And the worst free throw shooter in the NBA, bar no one.

Battier is a great defensive player as well. He doesn't have any offensive game either. Last year he hit some threes. This year he isn't.

You can't win consistently with 3 offensive black holes in your lineup. Add that to the fact the Rockets' bench was crap for years before this one. Anyone who ever watches the Rockets play sees that it is 2v5 on offense every possession. That is slowly changing this year, but its been true for both playoff appearances in a Rockets uni, which is what we are discussing.

Talk all you want about Luther Head's shooting ability. IN THE PLAYOFFS he shot below 25% from the field. He and Rafer pulled off a masterful chokejob.

And then you go and make completely stupid, erroneous comments like this one. I challenge you to take a look at Tracy's playoff stats from last year, hell, from his career. I'm pretty sure he's top 5 all time in postseason scoring average, and his numbers last year were SICK. He had numerous 20+ point 12+ assist games. His teammates choked. Tracy brought them to the doorstep and they tripped.

Take a look at Yao's numbers from last year's playoff series. He was terrible. Tracy was a one man army on the floor, just like in Orlando. And he had it, down to the final minute.

Take your hate elsewhere. Or at least make comments that are relevant.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

[quote="RoxFan08"][/quote]

Tmac shot 39% that series and was horrible on the road...

I can understand the other exits BUT this one is no excuse .. i saw every game..he was being guarded by Fisher and shooting jumpshots.

Tmacs best season was the one when he was #1 in PER but exited in the 1st round...Wades worst season was the one he was #1 in PER and exited in the 1st round. The year before that he won the tite, before that he lost in Game 7 of the Conference Finals, and before that he led his team to the 2nd round.

[shaqfan1]

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Shaq is a former MVP, most dominant in the league, Finals MVP, one of the top 5 Centers in the game(if you're going to use Francis former All Star)
Alonzo Mourning is a DPOY/shotblocking machine(if you're going to use Francis who is injured, Alonzo counts too)
Ricky Davis is a 20 PPG scorer
Jason Williams aka White Chocolate is one of the more exciting PGs to watch.
Haslem is a great PF and a great rebounder, shuts down Dirk so is a great defender.
Cook has shown the ability to play very well as a rookie
Wright according to Heat fans has crazy potential and has shown the ability to live up to it
Blount can stretch the defense like no other C
Wade is in the worst division in the worst Conference by far

Your examples are so flawed.

So Tmac isn't at fault for never getting out of the first round?

So it was his teammates' fault that he didn't get out of the first round last year. It's his teammates' fault that his team is hovering around .500 this year?

Please answer these questions?

[BBallFreak]

So Tmac isn't at fault for never getting out of the first round?

So it was his teammates' fault that he didn't get out of the first round last year. It's his teammates' fault that his team is hovering around .500 this year?

Please answer these questions?

It's a team game, dude.

[RoxFan08]

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Tmac shot 39% that series and was horrible on the road...

I can understand the other exits BUT this one is no excuse .. i saw every game..he was being guarded by Fisher and shooting jumpshots.

Tmacs best season was the one when he was #1 in PER but exited in the 1st round...Wades worst season was the one he was #1 in PER and exited in the 1st round. The year before that he won the tite, before that he lost in Game 7 of the Conference Finals, and before that he led his team to the 2nd round.

Did you even look at his other numbers? His assist numbers where through the roof, and everyone knows that the Jazz home arena is one of the most hostile in the NBA. Tmac, again, did practically everything he possibly could. Game 7 he had something like 30 and 16 assists, and his "great role players" couldn't get a defensive rebound on the last possession of the game to seal the win. Utah went on to the WCF and lost to the eventual champion Spurs.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

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Did you even look at his other numbers? His assist numbers where through the roof, and everyone knows that the Jazz home arena is one of the most hostile in the NBA. Tmac, again, did practically everything he possibly could. Game 7 he had something like 30 and 16 assists, and his "great role players" couldn't get a defensive rebound on the last possession of the game to seal the win. Utah went on to the WCF and lost to the eventual champion Spurs.

he was great that Game 7, but im talking about the series as a whole..

Utah got killed that year by guards, their interior defense was suspect..yet all he did was shoot jumpshots especially on the road.

[bigkevatoz]

wade>>>jordan