MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[Blaze4G]

You do realize that AD is a net negative when Lebron is off the court right?

In that 8 game span you played some of those injured teams as well.

Your team is also very deep and can sustain an injury like that in the regular season vs those weaker east teams.

Giannis usage is also incredibly high.

You want to look at it as most VALUABLE player. Lebron has a higher net rating rn and besides AD and maybe Green, who are we really relying on here rn?

Or you want to talk about better player? Because there is no way I'm taking Giannis over Lebron when it counts in the finals as of rn.

Usage is a **** stat, if you want to see how much a player dominates the ball you use time of possession.

Giannis isn’t even in the top 20 in time of possession. He averages 5 minutes

Lebron is 6th at 7.7 minutes a game

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

And I keep hearing about how deep the bucks are but yet somehow they can’t do **** without Giannis.

I keep hearing how AD is a top 5 player yet the lakers net raring with him and no Lebron is NEGATIVE

Giannis' net rating off the court is still positive 1.5 somehow. O wait its all the DAMN DEPTH.

AD missed one game and lakers lost. Hmm.

[Homer38]

Usage is a **** stat, if you want to see how much a player dominates the ball you use time of possession.

Giannis isn’t even in the top 20 in time of possession. He averages 5 minutes

Lebron is 6th at 7.7 minutes a game

https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

And I keep hearing about how deep the bucks are but yet somehow they can’t do **** without Giannis.

I keep hearing how AD is a top 5 player yet the lakers net raring with him and no Lebron is NEGATIVE

Giannis' net rating off the court is still positive 1.5 somehow. O wait its all the DAMN DEPTH.

AD missed one game and lakers lost. Hmm.

Not true...Davis miss only one game and it was against the Warriors.

[freethedevil]

I keep hearing how AD is a top 5 player yet the lakers net raring with him and no Lebron is NEGATIVE

Giannis' net rating off the court is still positive 1.5 somehow. O wait its all the DAMN DEPTH.

First of all, I’ve never uttered the words “AD top 5 player”

And with all that net rating bs, Giannis still leads lebron in every single advanced stat and pure numbers.

MVP MVP MVP

“ every advanced stat” aka every box score driven stat.

You realize the gap widens the less we use box numbers? Box numbers **** on big man d and rim protection.

[freethedevil]

Giannis is comfortably better than AD, and probably better than LeBron too.

I have a feeling that post will age terribly come May 2020. AD is better on both ends, it's he who's comfortably better; Lebron is massively better on offense.

AD comfortably better than Giannis? How can you even justify that?

LeBron is better on offense but Giannis more than makes up the gap defensively.

It's pretty debatable if ad is even better than giannis defensively. AD's a better rim protector, but Giannis is still oen of the best rim protectors AND one of the league's best perimeter defender. Overall isn't a real discussion

[freethedevil]

I have a feeling that post will age terribly come May 2020. AD is better on both ends, it's he who's comfortably better; Lebron is massively better on offense.



Following the league/watching games? Especially having watched both of them in the playoffs, there's no doubt about whose game holds up better, Davis has playoff numbers that rival Jordan and Lebron (on much smaller sample size of course) having played 66% of his series against the dynasty Warriors, while Giannis was kinda exposed offensively last year.

The hell are you talking about? Are you mad?

Playoffs WS/48 and BPM

Lebrons .269 / 11.1
Jordans .255 / 10.1

AD .184/ 3.9

Did I say every stat rivaled Jordan/Lebron or that he was as good as them? Some do however. For instance, the top 2 per game scorers in NBA playoff history are Michael Jordan, followed by Anthony Davis. 5th highest PER in NBA playoff history; his true shooting % is top 15 (higher than Jordan/Lebron). Over his short playoff career, he's averaging 31/13/2, with 2 steals and 3 blocks, on 59% TS; in this case the short sample size actually works against him since the bulk of his games played were against the dynasty Warriors, who are also an elite playoff defense. We never saw anything close to this in Giannis's also short playoff career, in fact we saw some serious struggles on the offensive end.

Giannis's playoff numbers are better than AD's nut go off.

Giannis wasn't "exposed" by defenses that sagged off, he destroyed those. He was exposed as a playmaker, which may be relevant if AD could run an offense.

[freethedevil]

At this point, its not close, imo. Its giannis by a few tiers and then the arguments start for 2nd.

Yet its extremely close and its Lebron

Looking at point diff and sos, The bucks are playing at a 68 win pace, the lakers a 62 win pace.

Giannis beats out lebron in box based advanced stats and destroys him in the most accurate plus minus stats(because those do a better job accounting for defense).

[freethedevil]

Very convincing argument. You sure showed him

Thanks, when one player is **** on the other like this in advanced metrics


Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM / DPIPM 3.30
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM / DPIPM 0.65

Trying to act like they’re remotely close in MVP standings is nothing but blind Stan hood. Using team impact metrics when it’s due to lebron just straight up dominating the ball.

Giannis is the MVP rn by a comfortable margin

The problem is people like you will spout out these “advanced” stats (that really aren’t all that advanced) as the be all-end all determinants of who’s playing better without even knowing what really goes into those stats. Do you even know how they’re calculated? I do. And they basically all tell you the same thing by trying to create some all-in-one metric based on the box score

Good job. You've just exposed you have zero idea how these stats work. PIPM doesnot just look at box score. Neither does BPM or Winshares.

[Joey Wheeler]

I have a feeling that post will age terribly come May 2020. AD is better on both ends, it's he who's comfortably better; Lebron is massively better on offense.

AD comfortably better than Giannis? How can you even justify that?

LeBron is better on offense but Giannis more than makes up the gap defensively.

It's pretty debatable if ad is even better than giannis defensively. AD's a better rim protector, but Giannis is still oen of the best rim protectors AND one of the league's best perimeter defender. Overall isn't a real discussion

AD being better defensively isn't debatable at all. He's the better rim protector and shot blocker, he's the better perimeter defender, he can sometimes guard both guys on the pick and roll at the same time. Giannis has zero argument on defense.

On offense it's more of a debate, Giannis is better at running an offense, but AD's more versatile scoring and overall skillset, namely his leagues better off ball game, make him a better fit in most offenses while Giannis pretty much has to run the entire offense to be maximized and he has never shown the ability to lead an elite playoff offense.

The hell are you talking about? Are you mad?

Playoffs WS/48 and BPM

Lebrons .269 / 11.1
Jordans .255 / 10.1

AD .184/ 3.9

Did I say every stat rivaled Jordan/Lebron or that he was as good as them? Some do however. For instance, the top 2 per game scorers in NBA playoff history are Michael Jordan, followed by Anthony Davis. 5th highest PER in NBA playoff history; his true shooting % is top 15 (higher than Jordan/Lebron). Over his short playoff career, he's averaging 31/13/2, with 2 steals and 3 blocks, on 59% TS; in this case the short sample size actually works against him since the bulk of his games played were against the dynasty Warriors, who are also an elite playoff defense. We never saw anything close to this in Giannis's also short playoff career, in fact we saw some serious struggles on the offensive end.

Giannis's playoff numbers are better than AD's nut go off.

Giannis wasn't "exposed" by defenses that sagged off, he destroyed those. He was exposed as a playmaker, which may be relevant if AD could run an offense.

And as a scorer, his playoff scoring leaves a lot to be desired and is clearly inferior to AD's. His lack of shooting, poor free throw shooting and turnover proneness mean he can and has been exploited in key moments of games. Overall, he's averaging 23 on 56% TS in the playoffs; in the only series where he faced an opponent somewhat comparable to the dynasty Warriors (against whom most of AD's playoff body of work has occured) he averaged 23 on 52% TS; it's hard to imagine AD ever having such a poor scoring series given the robustness of his scoring skillset.

Being exposed as a playmaker is a big deal because Giannis has to be the primary playmaker in his team's offense due to his lack of off ball game, while AD doesn't.

As for Giannis's playoff numbers being better than AD, I don't know why you keep inventing stuff that is so obviously false, it's not the first or second time you do that when debating with me. Why? You could just say the sample size is too small or whatever.

[clyde21]

lol @ AD being better than Giannis

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

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[Joey Wheeler]

It's very telling that in this discussion no one has really given a real argument for Giannis being better than AD unless we're counting variations of "Lol at AD being better" as argument, seems like we're just supposed to assume he is.

Oh well, as always the playoffs reveal everything and we'll know the answer to this and who's right come May and June assuming both are healthy. I feel very confident in my assessment of AD being a tier above at both ends though, he's just a more complete player with a more resilient skillset.

[LesGrossman]

Stats aside and ignoring the fact that AD is a top player in this league, do you not see that LeBron isnt contributing a bit on defense? He plays zero help, does not box out but just tries to get in position to grab a rebound. Noone noticed? He goes for one or two highlight chasedowns per game but otherwise its 4 on 5 on D for the Lakers.

Also i am impressed how Kawhi gets so little discussion. Year after year people fall for the chest pounding showboaters while Kawhi is about to earn the third title with the third team.

[GeorgeMarcus]

It's very telling that in this discussion no one has really given a real argument for Giannis being better than AD, seems like we're just supposed to assume he is.

Oh well, as always the playoffs reveal everything and we'll know the answer to this and who's right come May and June assuming both are healthy. I feel very confident in my assessment of AD being a tier above at both ends though, he's just a more complete player with a more resilient skillset.

You kind of just stated areas of the game you believe AD is better without providing evidence. I think you'd have a hard time convincing most people AD has a decisive defensive advantage. Giannis had a better DRAPM and DRPM while anchoring the #1 defense in the league last season. Their defensive skillsets are almost indistinguishable.

[yoyoboy]

Thanks, when one player is **** on the other like this in advanced metrics


Giannis: 12.2 BPM / .285 WS/48 / 32.9 PER / 8.36 PIPM / DPIPM 3.30
LeBron: 9.5 BPM / .252 WS/48 / 27.8 PER / 5.84 PIPM / DPIPM 0.65

Trying to act like they’re remotely close in MVP standings is nothing but blind Stan hood. Using team impact metrics when it’s due to lebron just straight up dominating the ball.

Giannis is the MVP rn by a comfortable margin

The problem is people like you will spout out these “advanced” stats (that really aren’t all that advanced) as the be all-end all determinants of who’s playing better without even knowing what really goes into those stats. Do you even know how they’re calculated? I do. And they basically all tell you the same thing by trying to create some all-in-one metric based on the box score

Good job. You've just exposed you have zero idea how these stats work. PIPM doesnot just look at box score. Neither does BPM or Winshares.

They’re all “based” on the box score... I never said they’re all calculated the exact same way and I know for example that PIPM incorporates tracking data while Win Shares essentially try to assign value based on a team’s wins - something that’s problematic by the way. Hell BPM literally stands for box plus minus. The point is that they’re not true “impact stats.” Stats like PIPM which try to utilize elements of the box score to form a plus/minus stat are defeating the purpose but that’s besides the point I guess. I also have issues with the luck adjusted aspect, which in my opinion isn’t purely due to luck, unless you truly believe that the extent of a shot contest has no actual impact on the probability that an opposing player makes the shot.

In a nutshell...Giannis has the advantage in the box score. We already know this. So all the metrics that use the box score to try to create an all-in-one valuation are going to give him the edge, even the ones you mentioned that give weight to some outside factors. You’re not providing much new information by showing that he checks more of those boxes. All you’re doing is further solidifying that he does in fact have better box score numbers. If you look at plus/minus data and metrics that lean more towards impact over production though...that’s where LeBron makes his case this season.

[GeorgeMarcus]

It's very telling that in this discussion no one has really given a real argument for Giannis being better than AD, seems like we're just supposed to assume he is.

Oh well, as always the playoffs reveal everything and we'll know the answer to this and who's right come May and June assuming both are healthy. I feel very confident in my assessment of AD being a tier above at both ends though, he's just a more complete player with a more resilient skillset.

You kind of just stated areas of the game you believe AD is better without providing evidence. I think you'd have a hard time convincing most people AD has a decisive defensive advantage. Giannis had a better DRAPM and DRPM while anchoring the #1 defense in the league last season. Their defensive skillsets are almost indistinguishable.

I'll add that Giannis has #6 defensive rating at 98.6 pts/100 poss versus AD at #49 with 102.9 pts/100 poss. Giannis comfortably has the best defensive rating on his team while AD is #4 on the Lakers behind Avery Bradley, Danny Green and LeBron. Yep, LeBron

[yoyoboy]

Stats aside and ignoring the fact that AD is a top player in this league, do you not see that LeBron isnt contributing a bit on defense? He plays zero help, does not box out but just tries to get in position to grab a rebound. Noone noticed? He goes for one or two highlight chasedowns per game but otherwise its 4 on 5 on D for the Lakers.

Also i am impressed how Kawhi gets so little discussion. Year after year people fall for the chest pounding showboaters while Kawhi is about to earn the third title with the third team.

This is just false. LA has the number one defense in the league. You don’t achieve that if one guy is causing you to play 4 on 5 defensively every possession he’s on the floor.

Lakers’ DRTG:

Davis ON, LeBron OFF:
109.5 DRTG

Davis ON, LeBron ON:
102.9 DRTG

Dwight ON, LeBron OFF:
106.0 DRTG

Dwight ON, LeBron ON:
103.5 DRTG

Davis ON, Dwight ON, LeBron OFF:
104.8 DRTG

Davis ON, Dwight ON, LeBron ON:
95.0 DRTG

LeBron is very clearly the third best defender on the #1 rated defensive team. And once you factor in minutes (considering he’s playing 35 mpg to Dwight’s 20) he’s providing the second most defensive value on the Lakers behind Anthony Davis. Which isn’t an insult considering he’s the league’s DPOY thus far.

[Joey Wheeler]

It's very telling that in this discussion no one has really given a real argument for Giannis being better than AD, seems like we're just supposed to assume he is.

Oh well, as always the playoffs reveal everything and we'll know the answer to this and who's right come May and June assuming both are healthy. I feel very confident in my assessment of AD being a tier above at both ends though, he's just a more complete player with a more resilient skillset.

You kind of just stated areas of the game you believe AD is better without providing evidence. I think you'd have a hard time convincing most people AD has a decisive defensive advantage. Giannis had a better DRAPM and DRPM while anchoring the #1 defense in the league last season. Their defensive skillsets are almost indistinguishable.

I'll add that Giannis has #6 defensive rating at 98.6 pts/100 poss versus AD at #49 with 102.9 pts/100 poss. Giannis comfortably has the best defensive rating on his team while AD is #4 on the Lakers behind Avery Bradley, Danny Green and LeBron. Yep, LeBron

Is that the kind of "evidence" you're looking for? What are we supposed to extract from that - that Davis is the 4th best defender on the Lakers and barely top 50 in the league?

Yes, my arguments aren't filled with "hard evidence" because they're based around an analysis of the players skillsets rather than just regurgitating stats. I don't generally feel sports can be captured accurately by stats, but this is even more true of basketball since the gap in level between the regular season and high leverage playoff series is just so huge. We saw it with Giannis last season when his amazing stats took a massive nosedive in the ECF; the fact that AD remained dominant when facing great playoff teams is a decisive factor for me in this argument since it shows his game translate into high stakes situations. Also, AD being able to mesh with someone like Lebron on offense due to his ability to dominate without the ball in his hands is something that is not captured by any stat but which is unbelievably valuable.

Looking at the two and what they can do, I'm taking AD every day of the week; better rim protector, shot blocker and perimeter/wing defender on defense, more versatile scorer (and crucially much better from the free throw line) and off ball player on offense. If you think Giannis is better, what exactly does he do better than AD aside from being able to quarterback an offense (but not to an elite level like a Lebron or James Harden anyway)?

But as I said, Giannis is the current flavor of the month while AD's last year in NO made no favors to his reputation so most people will say he's better now, but we'll know the answer in May and June.

[GeorgeMarcus]

You kind of just stated areas of the game you believe AD is better without providing evidence. I think you'd have a hard time convincing most people AD has a decisive defensive advantage. Giannis had a better DRAPM and DRPM while anchoring the #1 defense in the league last season. Their defensive skillsets are almost indistinguishable.

I'll add that Giannis has #6 defensive rating at 98.6 pts/100 poss versus AD at #49 with 102.9 pts/100 poss. Giannis comfortably has the best defensive rating on his team while AD is #4 on the Lakers behind Avery Bradley, Danny Green and LeBron. Yep, LeBron

Is that the kind of "evidence" you're looking for? What are we supposed to extract from that - that Davis is the 4th best defender on the Lakers and barely top 50 in the league?

Yes, my arguments aren't filled with "hard evidence" because they're based around an analysis of the players skillsets rather than just regurgitating stats. I don't generally feel sports can be captured accurately by stats, but this is even more true of basketball since the gap in level between the regular season and high leverage playoff series is just so huge. We saw it with Giannis last season when his amazing stats took a massive nosedive in the ECF; the fact that AD remained dominant when facing great playoff teams is a decisive factor for me in this argument since it shows his game translate into high stakes situations. Also, AD being able to mesh with someone like Lebron on offense due to his ability to dominate without the ball in his hands is something that is not captured by any stat but which is unbelievably valuable.

Looking at the two and what they can do, I'm taking AD every day of the week; better rim protector, shot blocker and perimeter/wing defender on defense, more versatile scorer (and crucially much better from the free throw line) and off ball player on offense. If you think Giannis is better, what exactly does he do better than AD aside from being able to quarterback an offense (but not to an elite level like a Lebron or James Harden anyway)?

But as I said, Giannis is the current flavor of the month while AD's last year in NO made no favors to his reputation so most people will say he's better now, but we'll know the answer in May and June.

Evaluating a player's impact on team defense should be the foundation of this discussion. Otherwise anyone could say anything and chalk it up to the "eye test".

The truth is, AD would have been stunted by the Raps last year just like every other big man they faced. It had nothing to do with Giannis being exposed, which is such a lazy narrative.

[Joey Wheeler]

I'll add that Giannis has #6 defensive rating at 98.6 pts/100 poss versus AD at #49 with 102.9 pts/100 poss. Giannis comfortably has the best defensive rating on his team while AD is #4 on the Lakers behind Avery Bradley, Danny Green and LeBron. Yep, LeBron

Is that the kind of "evidence" you're looking for? What are we supposed to extract from that - that Davis is the 4th best defender on the Lakers and barely top 50 in the league?

Yes, my arguments aren't filled with "hard evidence" because they're based around an analysis of the players skillsets rather than just regurgitating stats. I don't generally feel sports can be captured accurately by stats, but this is even more true of basketball since the gap in level between the regular season and high leverage playoff series is just so huge. We saw it with Giannis last season when his amazing stats took a massive nosedive in the ECF; the fact that AD remained dominant when facing great playoff teams is a decisive factor for me in this argument since it shows his game translate into high stakes situations. Also, AD being able to mesh with someone like Lebron on offense due to his ability to dominate without the ball in his hands is something that is not captured by any stat but which is unbelievably valuable.

Looking at the two and what they can do, I'm taking AD every day of the week; better rim protector, shot blocker and perimeter/wing defender on defense, more versatile scorer (and crucially much better from the free throw line) and off ball player on offense. If you think Giannis is better, what exactly does he do better than AD aside from being able to quarterback an offense (but not to an elite level like a Lebron or James Harden anyway)?

But as I said, Giannis is the current flavor of the month while AD's last year in NO made no favors to his reputation so most people will say he's better now, but we'll know the answer in May and June.

Evaluating a player's impact on team defense should be the foundation of this discussion. Otherwise anyone could say anything and chalk it up to the "eye test".

The truth is, AD would have been stunted by the Raps last year just like every other big man they faced. It had nothing to do with Giannis being exposed, which is such a lazy narrative.

Based on? We've seen AD in the playoffs and he's been dominant. 2 of his 3 series were against the dynasty Warriors, an elite playoff defense with Draymond Green as his direct matchup. That dominance was also achieved with a far inferior supporting cast and spacing than what Giannis had.

It is very lazy to assume AD would have struggled vs the Raptors like Giannis and Embiid did when AD's playoff history suggests he can't really be stunted by elite defense + his offensive skillset is more varied and he's better playing off the ball than those two. Giannis struggling offensively isn't a "lazy narrative", it's based on fact, I mean I doubt even his most ardent fans will claim he had a good offensive series; AD being hypothetically stunted otoh is fabrication not grounded on any real precedent in his career considering how most of his short playoff history consists of dropping an efficient 30ppg against an elite defense anchored by a DPOY at his position.

Regarding defense, I agree, all those I'm complimenting AD on obviously help at the team level, him protecting the rim, blocking shots, guarding smaller players on the perimeter, etc... make his team defense better. Yes, I'm confident any team's defense will improve substantially if they introduce AD into the mix. Can I quantify this improvement? Well, of course not, nobody can and it'll be different depending on the particular situation anyway.

[truly]

LMAO at this guy writing essays based on his eye test.