Tatum VS Luka

[SelfishPlayer]

What defensive liability? I told you repeatedly that Luka leads Mavs in DBPM, DWS%, DWS, BPM, WS/48, Steals, Rebounds, Deflections per game, then he is 2nd in blocks, 3rd Contested total shots (he even leads Tatum in contested shots per game), 3rd in DFG%.

What are you talking about? What defensive liability? Because he doesn't have 2 guys behind him to protect his back like some other superstars, that's what you want to penalize him for? I'm not saying he's the best or whatever, i can admit that he is at least average and that's more than enough for this team. And that's the point everyone is trying to tell you, Mavs have way bigger issues than Doncic's defense.

Luka Doncic has a defensive rating of 111.4 in the playoffs. He is an absolute target!

That's a weak argument, every star player is a target. Curry is being targeted more than anyone but he survives because he has great defenders behind him to cover his back. Unless you think Curry is Kawhi on defense.

Mavs overachieved they got in to the WCF with Brunson as their 2nd guy. A player who had 2 dissapointing playoff years in a row and Dinwiddie, who was literally a Wizards reject. (These two guys were Luka's best sidekicks).
Kidd figured it out how to use them, give him credit for that, but on the other hand, their 2 centers COMBINED managed to average only 6.8 RPG and 1.1 BLK through playoffs and they still got in to the WCF.

Serious question, what the hell did you expect from these Mavs ????

Michael Jordan was a target on defense?

[Archx]

Luka Doncic has a defensive rating of 111.4 in the playoffs. He is an absolute target!

That's a weak argument, every star player is a target. Curry is being targeted more than anyone but he survives because he has great defenders behind him to cover his back. Unless you think Curry is Kawhi on defense.

Mavs overachieved they got in to the WCF with Brunson as their 2nd guy. A player who had 2 dissapointing playoff years in a row and Dinwiddie, who was literally a Wizards reject. (These two guys were Luka's best sidekicks).
Kidd figured it out how to use them, give him credit for that, but on the other hand, their 2 centers COMBINED managed to average only 6.8 RPG and 1.1 BLK through playoffs and they still got in to the WCF.

Serious question, what the hell did you expect from these Mavs ????

Michael Jordan was a target on defense?

So now you're comparing Luka to Jordan? Ok, that's insanely high bar and i do admit you got the point there

But 22/23yo Jordan also got swept in the playoffs, 2 times in a row so maybe he should have played a better defense even though he had insane PPG average.

[SelfishPlayer]

That's a weak argument, every star player is a target. Curry is being targeted more than anyone but he survives because he has great defenders behind him to cover his back. Unless you think Curry is Kawhi on defense.

Mavs overachieved they got in to the WCF with Brunson as their 2nd guy. A player who had 2 dissapointing playoff years in a row and Dinwiddie, who was literally a Wizards reject. (These two guys were Luka's best sidekicks).
Kidd figured it out how to use them, give him credit for that, but on the other hand, their 2 centers COMBINED managed to average only 6.8 RPG and 1.1 BLK through playoffs and they still got in to the WCF.

Serious question, what the hell did you expect from these Mavs ????

Michael Jordan was a target on defense?

So now you're comparing Luka to Jordan? Ok, that's insanely high bar and i do admit you got the point there

But 22/23yo Jordan also got swept in the playoffs, 2 times in a row so maybe he should have played a better defense even though he had insane PPG average.

You made an absolute statement. I simply used the GOAT in a question. You didn't answer the question. We have just witnessed Luka in his fourth season get targeted in the playoffs defensively. The GOAT in his fourth season won DPOY. Is that the comparison you were looking to receive?

[DroseReturnChi]

The general consensus for most of past 2 years by most pundits is that Luka is better than Tatum and the main argument has been Luka’s superior ability to make those around him better. This amazing turnaround by the Celtics has been largely the result of Tatum finally figuring out how to be a facilitator and how to use his gravity as a scorer to beat the defense with the pass. Luka may be better than Tatum but Tatum’s defensive impact is being seriously underrated here. As great as Smart and Horford and Rob have been defensively…..it is Tatum who has the largest impact on defense when he is on or off the court due to his length.

Anyway, if you ask me who is going to better for the next 5 years….it will be Tatum hands down. He is just starting to tap his full potential and barring unforeseen injury, I think he is less likely to break down due to wear and tear due to superior conditioning and better training habits. Kudos to Luka for reaching his ceiling at such a young age - it is Larry Bird like and remarkable.

Tatum figured out nothing. Same chucker that has brain lag issues and cant score efficiently nor in clutch. This is why euros are superior to american stars guys like doncic jokic they have the intangibles to be dominant for decades. Traes the only guy that can match but he is a midget and literally the worst defender. Tatum cannot score within the flow like Paul george he is awarkward number 1 option thats forced to take 30 shots in a offensively challenged team. You cannot simply improve feel for the game or intelligence.

[Archx]

Michael Jordan was a target on defense?

So now you're comparing Luka to Jordan? Ok, that's insanely high bar and i do admit you got the point there

But 22/23yo Jordan also got swept in the playoffs, 2 times in a row so maybe he should have played a better defense even though he had insane PPG average.

You made an absolute statement. I simply used the GOAT in a question. You didn't answer the question. We have just witnessed Luka in his fourth season get targeted in the playoffs defensively. The GOAT in his fourth season won DPOY. Is that the comparison you were looking to receive?

I was barely alive when Jordan was 22/23yo i have no clue how targeted he was. But it's no secret teams target best players to make them work on defense so they get tired on offense. Later on, yeah teams forced Jordan to play defense aswell, that much i can remember.

I told you Luka is average at best on defense, he needs help defenders behind him and basketball is played differently than it was in those Jordan days. You're literally trying everything to discredit what Mavs did this year.

[SelfishPlayer]

So now you're comparing Luka to Jordan? Ok, that's insanely high bar and i do admit you got the point there

But 22/23yo Jordan also got swept in the playoffs, 2 times in a row so maybe he should have played a better defense even though he had insane PPG average.

You made an absolute statement. I simply used the GOAT in a question. You didn't answer the question. We have just witnessed Luka in his fourth season get targeted in the playoffs defensively. The GOAT in his fourth season won DPOY. Is that the comparison you were looking to receive?

I was barely alive when Jordan was 22/23yo i have no clue how targeted he was. But it's no secret teams target best players to make them work on defense so they get tired on offense. Later on, yeah teams forced Jordan to play defense aswell, that much i can remember.

I told you Luka is average at best on defense, he needs help defenders behind him and basketball is played differently than it was in those Jordan days. You're literally trying everything to discredit what Mavs did this year.

You say that as if Giannis hasn't won DPOY. Is Giannis targeted defensively?

[Archx]

You made an absolute statement. I simply used the GOAT in a question. You didn't answer the question. We have just witnessed Luka in his fourth season get targeted in the playoffs defensively. The GOAT in his fourth season won DPOY. Is that the comparison you were looking to receive?

I was barely alive when Jordan was 22/23yo i have no clue how targeted he was. But it's no secret teams target best players to make them work on defense so they get tired on offense. Later on, yeah teams forced Jordan to play defense aswell, that much i can remember.

I told you Luka is average at best on defense, he needs help defenders behind him and basketball is played differently than it was in those Jordan days. You're literally trying everything to discredit what Mavs did this year.

You say that as if Giannis hasn't won DPOY. Is Giannis targeted defensively?

He was last time Mavs played him. Luka and others targeted him in the 4th and in clutch so that Bucks would have low interior presence with him on perimeter. Luka had 32/8/15, Mavs won.

Point is, every star gets targeted when it matters, it's a common tactic used since like forever.

Watch on YouTube

[SelfishPlayer]

I was barely alive when Jordan was 22/23yo i have no clue how targeted he was. But it's no secret teams target best players to make them work on defense so they get tired on offense. Later on, yeah teams forced Jordan to play defense aswell, that much i can remember.

I told you Luka is average at best on defense, he needs help defenders behind him and basketball is played differently than it was in those Jordan days. You're literally trying everything to discredit what Mavs did this year.

You say that as if Giannis hasn't won DPOY. Is Giannis targeted defensively?

He was last time Mavs played him. Luka and others targeted him in the 4th and in clutch so that Bucks would have low interior presence with him on perimeter. Luka had 32/8/15, Mavs won.

Point is, every star gets targeted when it matters, it's a common tactic used since like forever.

Watch on YouTube

Luka shot 9/22 that game with 6 turnovers. Luka is targeted defensively in the playoffs where there are no more back to back games and every team is executing a game plan designed specifically for their opponent.

[3toheadmelo]

Luka is def a big liability on defense. Can't really dispute that when you look at the stats which match the eye test.

Luka defended 1,042 possessions these playoffs. His matchups scored 303 points on 48 FG% and 34% from 3 shooting w/ 61 assists, 39 turnovers and 8 blocked shots.

Read on Twitter

[ChartFiction]

Luka is def a big liability on defense. Can't really dispute that when you look at the stats which match the eye test.

Luka defended 1,042 possessions these playoffs. His matchups scored 303 points on 48 FG% and 34% from 3 shooting w/ 61 assists, 39 turnovers and 8 blocked shots.

Read on Twitter

So he's giving up better than his own percentages which goes back to explaining his poor on/off numbers

[Bob8]

I totally respect the the fact that Tatum as a two way player and clearly a player with an extremely high basketball IQ did what he could to help the team win when his shot wasn’t falling. Tatum had 13 assist and 2 TOs cause he was making a ton - correction - a crap ton for good reads.

I will say this as often as I can...people don’t respect or give enough credit to winning when it comes to certain players.

But Draymond and Bill Russell and Simmons are considered great players even though they can’t score like the best scorers... so when I see a guy like Tatum having a low scoring but high assist game - I go...OK Tatum has learned how to win regardless....give him credit for that

Yep, 13 assists and 2 TO in a finals debut is extremely impressive. The ability to dominate the game in other areas like defense and playmaking when his shot isnt failling is what seperates players from good to great. You know who did this a lot too.. his idol Kobe. He really could be the Kobe of this generation IMO.

100000% agree....you can respect how good Tatum is and has been without diminishing anyone else. Tatum is a monster and if they win a ring he is in the mvp convo over everyone but Giannis and Jokic

You're impressed with 3/17 shooting?

Kobe?

[sam_I_am]

The general consensus for most of past 2 years by most pundits is that Luka is better than Tatum and the main argument has been Luka’s superior ability to make those around him better. This amazing turnaround by the Celtics has been largely the result of Tatum finally figuring out how to be a facilitator and how to use his gravity as a scorer to beat the defense with the pass. Luka may be better than Tatum but Tatum’s defensive impact is being seriously underrated here. As great as Smart and Horford and Rob have been defensively…..it is Tatum who has the largest impact on defense when he is on or off the court due to his length.

Anyway, if you ask me who is going to better for the next 5 years….it will be Tatum hands down. He is just starting to tap his full potential and barring unforeseen injury, I think he is less likely to break down due to wear and tear due to superior conditioning and better training habits. Kudos to Luka for reaching his ceiling at such a young age - it is Larry Bird like and remarkable.

Tatum figured out nothing. Same chucker that has brain lag issues and cant score efficiently nor in clutch. This is why euros are superior to american stars guys like doncic jokic they have the intangibles to be dominant for decades. Traes the only guy that can match but he is a midget and literally the worst defender. Tatum cannot score within the flow like Paul george he is awarkward number 1 option thats forced to take 30 shots in a offensively challenged team. You cannot simply improve feel for the game or intelligence.

How many career NBA finals assists does George have? Zero! Doncic? 0. Jokic? 0. Tatum is averaging 13/game.

[Bob8]

I keep seeing posts talking about swapping the two and how Luka would be in the same position if he was on the Celtics, but that logic is flawed. One the biggest strengths of the current team, and the reason they're in the finals is the ability to switch on defense. The whole defensive system breaks down with Luka in place of Tatum. Now, would the increase in offensive output mitigate the loss of defense? Maybe, but it's not an absolute.

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=V5r45Ey5MRWkFWJrwAYdLg

Boston is only where they are because of two way play..._I agree that Luka would not make them better...you can’t just swap a 6’10” in shape dude that can give you 46 against Giannis and D up Giannis with a guy that could give you 40 as well but not stop KD or Giannis or Butler if the switch came. Again doesn’t make Tatum better per say...just means the team built around Tatum is built on defense.


Funny thing is the thing that made Dallas better was defense too... so the better question would be - would DALLAS be in the finals with Tatum because their defense would be that much better ...

What do you think happens with Mavs D, if they have DPOY and rim protector instead Brunson/Powell?

Tatum wouldn't change anything, because they still couldn't defend and would rebound even worse. 0:4 against Suns.

[Bob8]

The general consensus for most of past 2 years by most pundits is that Luka is better than Tatum and the main argument has been Luka’s superior ability to make those around him better. This amazing turnaround by the Celtics has been largely the result of Tatum finally figuring out how to be a facilitator and how to use his gravity as a scorer to beat the defense with the pass. Luka may be better than Tatum but Tatum’s defensive impact is being seriously underrated here. As great as Smart and Horford and Rob have been defensively…..it is Tatum who has the largest impact on defense when he is on or off the court due to his length.

Anyway, if you ask me who is going to better for the next 5 years….it will be Tatum hands down. He is just starting to tap his full potential and barring unforeseen injury, I think he is less likely to break down due to wear and tear due to superior conditioning and better training habits. Kudos to Luka for reaching his ceiling at such a young age - it is Larry Bird like and remarkable.

Tatum figured out nothing. Same chucker that has brain lag issues and cant score efficiently nor in clutch. This is why euros are superior to american stars guys like doncic jokic they have the intangibles to be dominant for decades. Traes the only guy that can match but he is a midget and literally the worst defender. Tatum cannot score within the flow like Paul george he is awarkward number 1 option thats forced to take 30 shots in a offensively challenged team. You cannot simply improve feel for the game or intelligence.

How many career NBA finals assists does George have? Zero! Doncic? 0. Jokic? 0. Tatum is averaging 13/game.

...and 3/17 shooting.

How many points and assists has MJ had in Finals, when he was 23 years old?

[sam_I_am]

Tatum figured out nothing. Same chucker that has brain lag issues and cant score efficiently nor in clutch. This is why euros are superior to american stars guys like doncic jokic they have the intangibles to be dominant for decades. Traes the only guy that can match but he is a midget and literally the worst defender. Tatum cannot score within the flow like Paul george he is awarkward number 1 option thats forced to take 30 shots in a offensively challenged team. You cannot simply improve feel for the game or intelligence.

How many career NBA finals assists does George have? Zero! Doncic? 0. Jokic? 0. Tatum is averaging 13/game.

...and 3/17 shooting.

How many points and assists has MJ had in Finals, when he was 23 years old?

3/17 and still dominated the GS Warriors on their home court means you are really good. Triple team defense from second rated defense in NBA shows the respect GS has for Tatum.

[tsherkin]

This is why euros are superior to american stars guys like doncic jokic they have the intangibles to be dominant for decades.

Why would you making such a sweeping, broad generalization that is so obviously not a universal or even majority-rooted truth? You have to know how wrong that is and being doing it on purpose to troll...

[Bob8]

How many career NBA finals assists does George have? Zero! Doncic? 0. Jokic? 0. Tatum is averaging 13/game.

...and 3/17 shooting.

How many points and assists has MJ had in Finals, when he was 23 years old?

3/17 and still dominated the GS Warriors on their home court means you are really good. Triple team defense from second rated defense in NBA shows the respect GS has for Tatum.

Tatum didn't dominate anyone. Jaylen has dominated GSW in Q4.

Can you please answer MJ question?

[Archx]

Luka is def a big liability on defense. Can't really dispute that when you look at the stats which match the eye test.

Luka defended 1,042 possessions these playoffs. His matchups scored 303 points on 48 FG% and 34% from 3 shooting w/ 61 assists, 39 turnovers and 8 blocked shots.

Read on Twitter

So he's giving up better than his own percentages which goes back to explaining his poor on/off numbers

Before the GSW series Luka had +13 On/Off if i remember correctly. And in his last graphic author made a mistake, he included Jordan Clarkson in it.

And if you take even a closer look, you'll see that Luka was forced to play center defense on a much bigger and stronger Looney. He shot 10/11 vs Luka. I think the only chance Mavs would have to win this series if Doncic turned into combination of prime Lebron/Kawhi so that he could guard centers, wings and guards and then still average over 30ppg to give Mavs enough boost lol...


All in all, if you go by this graphic they scored 95 points (50.6%) on him and Luka scored 160 on them. So

[sam_I_am]

...and 3/17 shooting.

How many points and assists has MJ had in Finals, when he was 23 years old?

3/17 and still dominated the GS Warriors on their home court means you are really good. Triple team defense from second rated defense in NBA shows the respect GS has for Tatum.

Tatum didn't dominate anyone. Jalen has dominated GSW in Q4.

Can you please answer MJ question?

Was Brown triple teamed even once?

MJ had zero points and assists in finals at age 23. In fact he had zero points and zero assists in ECF games at age 24….the age Tatum led his team to ECF for third time.

[Bob8]

If narrative 3/17 is a great game wins, we can't debate about anything, because every Tatum's game will be great. I see no point in continuing this.