Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again)

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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1001 » by HardenToSixers » Tue May 10, 2022 10:29 pm

rapstarter wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Honestly what are you talking about? I have no clue how you read my entire post and came away thinking that I believe VORP is the end all for this discussion. Either reading comprehension isnt your thing, or youre a little too emotionally invested to see the forest for the trees on this one.

your argument boils down to

1. Without his two best teammates: I don't care. Sixers dealt with plenty of roster turmoil. Tobias Harris played godawful for most of the year and Sixers fans were calling for his head, Maxey is a 2nd year player, Simmons was sitting out, questionable role player depth in the front court and on the wing, issues integrating Harden caused a late season slide.

2. Wins column: once again, don't care. They're close enough that it shouldn't factor in hugely. Saying "played in more wins" is a stupid argument and splitting hairs. Sixers are a higher seed in the playoffs which offsets that.

So again, your argument mostly boils down to Jokic's advanced stats were better. Congrats.


People "don't care" about any of your nonsensical arguments either. Congrats, at least you make people laugh.

It's nonsensical that the Sixers roster around Embiid is marginally better and not as deep as Denver's? Then why is our record terrible without him? Why were we blown out for 2 straight games of this series with him gone and came back and won convincingly with him in the lineup?

It's nonsensical that we are splitting hairs in the win column? So you think an MVP should be chosen because he "played in more wins" than the competitor, even though the difference is marginal at best and the competitor had more wins overall and was the higher seed?

Not sure what is so nonsensical for you to wrap your head around chief.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1002 » by HardenToSixers » Tue May 10, 2022 10:32 pm

AleksandarN wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season. :lol: :lol:


Or we can go by the polls they have every year on who they think is the best center in the game. Guess who the NBA execs choose last year by an overwhelming margin? Hint it was not Embiid.

lol good thing that was last year?
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1003 » by AleksandarN » Tue May 10, 2022 10:39 pm

HardenToSixers wrote:
AleksandarN wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season. :lol: :lol:


Or we can go by the polls they have every year on who they think is the best center in the game. Guess who the NBA execs choose last year by an overwhelming margin? Hint it was not Embiid.

lol good thing that was last year?

And the year before that. Lets see if this is actually close this year. It might be this time.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1004 » by eathb_au » Tue May 10, 2022 10:40 pm

The thing that bugs me is how hard critics are sticking to the analytics line, as if that is the only reason Jokic won MVP.

His counting stats were 27, 14, and 8 on 66% true shooting lmao.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1005 » by velkisimo » Tue May 10, 2022 10:42 pm

Change of pace from bickering over something that cannot be changed. Just saw this trailer and can't wait to watch it!

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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1006 » by Cubbies2120 » Tue May 10, 2022 10:43 pm

HardenToSixers wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:your argument boils down to

1. Without his two best teammates: I don't care. Sixers dealt with plenty of roster turmoil. Tobias Harris played godawful for most of the year and Sixers fans were calling for his head, Maxey is a 2nd year player, Simmons was sitting out, questionable role player depth in the front court and on the wing, issues integrating Harden caused a late season slide.

2. Wins column: once again, don't care. They're close enough that it shouldn't factor in hugely. Saying "played in more wins" is a stupid argument and splitting hairs. Sixers are a higher seed in the playoffs which offsets that.

So again, your argument mostly boils down to Jokic's advanced stats were better. Congrats.


People "don't care" about any of your nonsensical arguments either. Congrats, at least you make people laugh.

It's nonsensical that the Sixers roster around Embiid is marginally better and not as deep as Denver's? Then why is our record terrible without him? Why were we blown out for 2 straight games of this series with him gone and came back and won convincingly with him in the lineup?
.


Marginally better? :lol:

All defensive wing
2nd year player capable of dropping 35+, 20+ in a half, etc.
A guy who can carry you in the 4th quarter to a win where you score 1 FG in the final 20 minutes of a game against the best team in your conference

I need to ask a serious question - do you know the definition of marginal?

The Sixers NEED Embiid to be competitive against the best team in the conference. They also NEED Harden as was evidenced last night.

You’re purposely (I hope it’s on purpose…) mixing two arguments:

1. That Embiid is not the most valuable player in the entire league (this is true, it is Joki)
2. That Embiid, because he’s not the most valuable player in the entire league, is suddenly not an extremely valuable player (he absolutely is, top 5 in the league with ZERO DOUBT).

The Sixers need him, and they need Harden.

There were multiple games of the 8 games that Embiid played in in these playoffs that Embiid was AT BEST the 2nd most important player of the game.

Not that it matters for regular season award, but since you brought up playoffs specifically, and somehow tried to compare their supporting casts (laughable).
Jokic 5x MVP train
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1007 » by losmi » Tue May 10, 2022 10:46 pm

HardenToSixers wrote:
AleksandarN wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season. :lol: :lol:


Or we can go by the polls they have every year on who they think is the best center in the game. Guess who the NBA execs choose last year by an overwhelming margin? Hint it was not Embiid.

lol good thing that was last year?


NBA.com 2021-22 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 63%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 23%

NBA.com 2020-21 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 50%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 0%

NBA.com 2019-20 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver — 48%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia — 28%

I guess GMs are analytic nerds.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1008 » by Admiral-Kizaru » Tue May 10, 2022 10:54 pm

Maybe I'm wrong but.... I feel like there might be a bit of a racial undertone to certain former players coming out and saying that Jokic didn't deserve MVP just like they did with Nash. To preface, I'm black but I can't help but feel like this is a racial dig towards Joker who has been nothing but spectacular and rightly deserved what is a regular-season award.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1009 » by Bergmaniac » Tue May 10, 2022 11:14 pm

eathb_au wrote:The thing that bugs me is how hard critics are sticking to the analytics line, as if that is the only reason Jokic won MVP.

His counting stats were 27, 14, and 8 on 66% true shooting lmao.
They have got nothing else so they parrot the nonsense of ignorant media personalities who don't have any idea what basketball analytics actually are.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1010 » by hardenASG13 » Tue May 10, 2022 11:17 pm

losmi wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:
AleksandarN wrote:
Or we can go by the polls they have every year on who they think is the best center in the game. Guess who the NBA execs choose last year by an overwhelming margin? Hint it was not Embiid.

lol good thing that was last year?


NBA.com 2021-22 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 63%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 23%

NBA.com 2020-21 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 50%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 0%

NBA.com 2019-20 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver — 48%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia — 28%

I guess GMs are analytic nerds.


https://www.complex.com/sports/nba-gm-survey/

Yeah those GMs just nail it year after year haha
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1011 » by losmi » Tue May 10, 2022 11:18 pm

HardenToSixers wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:Jokic had a great season no doubt and is deserving even though I disagree. But I will never be able to take someone seriously who says Jokic deserved it because he broke the single-season PER record as if that is something anybody should actually care about or any all-encompassing, single-number metrics. It's lazy and takes all context out of discussion.


That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season. :lol: :lol:


Daryl Morey would trade Embiid for Jokic in a heartbeat.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1012 » by eyeatoma » Tue May 10, 2022 11:22 pm

losmi wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
That is one stat of many that people have pointed to with Jokic on why he should've won, I dont think anyone is saying the only argument needed for Jokic is PER. Whether its VORP, BPM, WS/48, RAPTOR, or practically all of the advanced metrics. The vast majority of them all had Jokic as the leader. Many people point to his dominance in all these advanced metrics as an argument on why he won. Again I think the number of people who think he deserved to win only off his PER is extremely low.

When it comes to Jokic the argument is pretty easy to understand and the vast majority are making the same argument. The fact that Jokic had such a fantastic season statistically (raw and advanced), then add in he was without his 2 best teammates, then add in the other two MVP contenders didnt have much of a separation in the win column (again Jokic actually played in more wins). When you combine it all, Jokic is the MVP. That is the argument that the vast majority of Jokic fans (or people who just thought he deserved to win) are making.

I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season. :lol: :lol:


Daryl Morey would trade Embiid for Jokic in a heartbeat.


LOL, do you have a poster of Joker above your bed that you fondle yourself to every night?

User has been dealt with. Ignore and don't reply.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1013 » by velkisimo » Tue May 10, 2022 11:28 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
losmi wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:lol good thing that was last year?


NBA.com 2021-22 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 63%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 23%

NBA.com 2020-21 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 50%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 0%

NBA.com 2019-20 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver — 48%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia — 28%

I guess GMs are analytic nerds.


https://www.complex.com/sports/nba-gm-survey/

Yeah those GMs just nail it year after year haha


Not that i consider GMs takes to be the guiding star, but there is a significant difference in predicting a future vs. making a decision based on what they saw.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1014 » by losmi » Tue May 10, 2022 11:33 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
losmi wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:lol good thing that was last year?


NBA.com 2021-22 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 63%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 23%

NBA.com 2020-21 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 50%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 0%

NBA.com 2019-20 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver — 48%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia — 28%

I guess GMs are analytic nerds.


https://www.complex.com/sports/nba-gm-survey/

Yeah those GMs just nail it year after year haha


Who will win something, if that's what you're referring to, and who is the best are very different question.

Who will win a title, award, etc., is a prediction that can go wrong for various reasons.

Who is the best means which player do they value more, and top basketball professionals obviously value Jokic more than Embiid.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1015 » by losmi » Tue May 10, 2022 11:50 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
losmi wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:I'm sure when Daryl Morey and Masai Ujiri are evaluating trade candidates they rank all the players by their VORP and use that as their primary gauge for player impact. I bet you Miami is really kicking themselves right now because they have Jimmy Butler instead of Trae Young. If only they had the guy with the 0.4 higher VORP they would've had more success this season. :lol: :lol:


Daryl Morey would trade Embiid for Jokic in a heartbeat.


LOL, do you have a poster of Joker above your bed that you fondle yourself to every night?


I do, because I can. Daryl can't, but he hides a small photo in his wallet.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1016 » by eyeatoma » Tue May 10, 2022 11:51 pm

losmi wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
losmi wrote:
Daryl Morey would trade Embiid for Jokic in a heartbeat.


LOL, do you have a poster of Joker above your bed that you fondle yourself to every night?


I do, because I can. Daryl can't, but he hides a small photo in his wallet.
Of Harden, yeah you're right.

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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1017 » by HardenToSixers » Tue May 10, 2022 11:52 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
losmi wrote:
HardenToSixers wrote:lol good thing that was last year?


NBA.com 2021-22 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 63%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 23%

NBA.com 2020-21 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 50%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 0%

NBA.com 2019-20 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver — 48%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia — 28%

I guess GMs are analytic nerds.


https://www.complex.com/sports/nba-gm-survey/

Yeah those GMs just nail it year after year haha

Yeah this is such a dumb data point i'm not even sure what to say lol. GM surveys that they probably have their intern reply to. This is a new one.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1018 » by AleksandarN » Wed May 11, 2022 12:10 am

HardenToSixers wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
losmi wrote:
NBA.com 2021-22 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 63%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 23%

NBA.com 2020-21 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 50%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 0%

NBA.com 2019-20 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver — 48%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia — 28%

I guess GMs are analytic nerds.


https://www.complex.com/sports/nba-gm-survey/

Yeah those GMs just nail it year after year haha

Yeah this is such a dumb data point i'm not even sure what to say lol. GM surveys that they probably have their intern reply to. This is a new one.

Those interns are so consistent year after year. Choosing Jokic over Embiid.
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1019 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 11, 2022 12:17 am

velkisimo wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
losmi wrote:
NBA.com 2021-22 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 63%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 23%

NBA.com 2020-21 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 50%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 0%

NBA.com 2019-20 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver — 48%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia — 28%

I guess GMs are analytic nerds.


https://www.complex.com/sports/nba-gm-survey/

Yeah those GMs just nail it year after year haha


Not that i consider GMs takes to be the guiding star, but there is a significant difference in predicting a future vs. making a decision based on what they saw.


Dont they predict the future based on what they saw from the previous year?
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Re: Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again) 

Post#1020 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 11, 2022 12:18 am

losmi wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
losmi wrote:
NBA.com 2021-22 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 63%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 23%

NBA.com 2020-21 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver – 50%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia – 0%

NBA.com 2019-20 GM Survey
Who is the best center in the NBA?
Nikola Jokic, Denver — 48%
Joel Embiid, Philadelphia — 28%

I guess GMs are analytic nerds.


https://www.complex.com/sports/nba-gm-survey/

Yeah those GMs just nail it year after year haha


Who will win something, if that's what you're referring to, and who is the best are very different question.

Who will win a title, award, etc., is a prediction that can go wrong for various reasons.

Who is the best means which player do they value more, and top basketball professionals obviously value Jokic more than Embiid.


Didnt they have KAT as the player they would most like to build around after his second season?
https://www.foxsports.com/north/story/nba-gm-survey-minnesota-timberwolves-karl-anthony-towns-100417?amp=true

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