NBA MVP Discussion 20/21 (Fresh poll ➥ Vote)

[stormi]

I also am not trying to remove Embiid from the conversation, where did I say that? I literally said that Embiid's production and numbers speaks for itself. I also said it's an eye of the beholder situation where different people will weigh things differently.

Love that for you bestie and I agree one million %, glad we could reach mutual understanding

[KqWIN]

I also am not trying to remove Embiid from the conversation, where did I say that? I literally said that Embiid's production and numbers speaks for itself. I also said it's an eye of the beholder situation where different people will weigh things differently.

Love that for you bestie and I agree one million %, glad we could reach mutual understanding

I honestly don't even know who you're referring to I guess we're past the point of substantive discussion.

[Gibson22]

L for Lebron but he played very well and schroeder (and ad) was out

[trueballer7]

ESPN with the most dedicated propaganda campaign in history to get LeChina the MVP.

[chaimer]

ESPN with the most dedicated propaganda campaign in history to get LeChina the MVP.

You bet on Doncic MVP before the season, didn't you?

[eyeatoma]

Read on Twitter

Holy crap!!! Someone show that poll to Damian Lillard. I want to see him average 40/15 over the rest of the season and lead POR to the No. 1 seed in the West.

Damn! That is beyond disrespectful. Jason Tatum, leading his team to a .500 record in the East with worse numbers than Lillard, up 8 votes to 0. SMH!

That poll was from February 11th. Before Lillard really started turning it on.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[jokeboy86]

Lillard getting spat on in that poll

Honestly, Lillard has been spat on his whole career. I suspect some media people forget he exists.

Cause they want him to leave Portland. It’s apparent that the national media has disdain for small markets with big stars. Look what happened the 2nd Giannis signed his contract, they deemed him not interesting anymore cause there’s no free agency speculation news anymore. They’re already prepping their Zion strategy

[jokeboy86]

This may be the first time that voters may take a baseball type of approach based on stats, advanced stats, etc because I have no idea now who's the front runner.

Donovan Mitchell - No because despite the Jazz's record and if they finish on top of the West the voters will probably feel he doesn't average enough points and that Utah's success is due more to the team as a whole. Similar to why no one from the 00s Pistons ever came close to winning MVP despite them having seasons where they had the best record in the East.

Lebron - was the front runner but the Davis injury will probably hurt them enough to not getting the #1 seed in the West. I could see the Jazz creating some distance now plus the Lakers are only a game up on the Clippers and as great as Lebron is and as much as the media want to give him MVP they simply can't if he's not the top seed(they haven't before). And honestly if I'm the Lakers I don't care about the regular season and my main concern is making sure that Davis and James are completely healthy for a playoff run

Embiid - probably the new front runner since they're on top of the East but Brooklyn despite their injuries is right behind them and I'm also not ruling the Bucks completely out until Holiday comes back. Plus Embiid's health is always going to be something to watch.

Jokic - Having a spectacular season but I simply don't see the Nuggets getting the 1 or even 2 seed unless they get on a blazing run after the break.

Curry - See Jokic. Warriors aren't sniffing a top 2 seed and their ceiling is possibly the 4 seed but that's not high enough for a Curry MVP.

Durant - Won't matter if Brooklyn gets the top seed or not because the voters will penalize him since he plays with Harden and Irving and anytime they win when he's out also hurts him in the voters eyes too.

Leonard - Doesn't play enough games in the voters eyes(despite him actually playing in over 76% of them so far this year). Plus the Clippers will probably rest him close to the end if he has any nagging injuries which he always does.

Lillard & Doncic - Like Curry and Jokic, great stats but teams won't finish high enough.

Giannis- team trending down and regardless even if they get it together, he's not winning 3 MVPs in a row. Simply not going to happen.

Now this all could be moot if the voters decide for the first time in a long time to completely disregard team success(don't include Westbrook's because he accomplished the NBA's unofficial "triple crown" so it was more a historic nod). Then it could be wide open.

[RB34]

I honestly don’t see how the team not being high enough seed argument can work in regards to Dame.

I mean, POR are 4th at the moment. Realistically, how much higher do people expect them to be with the injuries/roster as it currently stands. The third seed has a good roster with two stars and the second seed has two NBA first teamers..

[eyeatoma]

Watch on YouTube

MVP!

[scrabbarista]

ESPN with the most dedicated propaganda campaign in history to get LeChina the MVP.

Here's a summary of the propaganda article I would write if I worked for ESPN.

PPG = Jokic
RPG = Jokic
APG = Jokic
BPG = Jokic
SPG = Jokic
FG% = Jokic
3P% = Jokic
FT% = Jokic
TO'S = Jokic (fewer per game)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

FGA = James
FTA = James
3PA = James
All-NBA teammates = James
ESPN propaganda = James

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion: LeBron James is the MVP.

[The411]

Read on Twitter

Statistically we have a Jokic/Embiid partnership at the top, with Kawhi right there and Lebron a bit behind him for your top 4 candidates. This, of course excluding factors like team success and durability that would hit some of these players' campaign. The narrative factor as well.

So basically you have 8 statistical measurements that show how terribly inaccurate +/- is as a statistical measure with wildly varying outcomes depending on the criteria used and the 9th which seems to show us the clearest picture as to who adds the greatest win probability.

Steph Curry adds the most win probability by a fairly substantial margin.

[Gibson22]

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-19-edition

1) Lebron
2) Embiid
3) Dame
4) Steph
5) Jokic
6) Mitchell
7) Giannis
8) KD
9) Leonard
10) Harden

Advanced metrics don't win you the mvp, it's about counting stats+wins (possibly, winning more than you're expected to win or than the previous year, unlike what jokic and giannis are doing)+not missing games+narrative

At a certain point this thread gotta realize that Lebron has been 1° in all three of the ladders, and in that voters straw poll that that twitter guy did. Obviously I don't agree with it all (jokic at 5th is too low considering he's been the best as far as individual level, kd has no business being that high, etc) but again, lebron has good ppg/rpg/assists, respectable ts% and defense and tos, hasn't missed a game and has a good record (the 2nd best in the nba), he's borderline top 5/easy top 10 best as far as advanced metrics go. Also 5-2 without ad as of now. Embiid has missed 6 games, leonard has missed 7, jokic is 15-13 and he wasn't expected to lose this much after going 46-27 last year, dame is a bad defender and he isn't a stat sheet filler like some other guys, giannis is 16-13 after going 56-17 last year, steph is 16-13 (+ same flaws as dame), mitchell and gobert have an incredible record but they aren't good enough, kd misses and loses too many games, harden doesn't have the insane stat sheet he used to have + he's losing too much, doncic is losing too much.

Narrative wise:
Lebron is the only guy to have a positive narrative on his side, the others either have a neutral one or a negative one. His narrative is: 36 years old goat who has just won the championship and hasn't won an mvp since 2013 despite being the best player in the world (player of the year) in most of those years, meanwhile those who do win the mvp often don't step up or have something missing from their game to maintain their level in the playoffs, while he's notorious to step up his game in the playoffs. That's a great narrative to have.
Other guys have a neutral narrative (embiid, dame, jokic, leonard), meaning that they are just superstar players having great seaons, there isn't anything new to them as far as storyline. Leonard also has a slightly negative narrative in the fact that as he was being considered the best player in the world and better than lebron, rightfully, after being the player of the year in 2019, he failed big time choking a 3-1 lead
Giannis, harden have a negative narrative in being past mvp winners who don't step up in the playoffs and lack something to maintain their level in post season.
Steph has a slightly positive narrative being the unlucky player (because of klay's injury, obviously kd's departure 2 years ago) who's carrying a trash team.
Mitchell and Gobert also slight positive being "newcomers" (as far as mvp candidacy) and being the unexpected first seed playing beautiful basketball.

All in all if you don't understand why Lebron is first and you've followed the nba for a while you're really dumb or a hater.

Also put it this way: there are a number of guys who can be ahead of lebron in one are: -overall individual level/-offensive production/team record/two way level, but all of them have a big disadvantage in some other areas

-Jokic has way better numbers than Lebron, but better enough to overcome a 6 wins, 6 positions (2th seed to 8th seed) difference?
-Embiid has better numbers than lebron, enough to overcome 6 more missed games and 2.5 wins?
-Mitchell and Gobert have 2.5 more wins (while being expected to win less than the lakers on paper), is it enough to put them ahead despite being considerably worse than him as far as numbers/individual level of play?
-Leonard is probably playing slightly better than lebron, enough to overcome 7 more missed games?
-Dame has a more impressive record (compared to supporting cast and expectations), and you can argue he's been better than lebron offensively, but the defensive gap is bag, plus he has 3 less wins and 1 more missed game
--Giannis has been better than lebron if the two ends of the floor (more scoring on higher efficiency, more rebounds and defense), but is it enough to overcome 5.5 wins, 1 more missed game difference?
-Steph has been better offensively, but again, big defense/rebounds/record gap
-Doncic bigger overall production, but even if you'd put his offensive value above lebron's, lebron's defense and record>
-KD way better scoring, and he also has nice rebounds and assists, and I'd say his defense has been superior to lebron's, but his missed games put him out of the equation.
-Harden, way better on offense as he averages 24.4/11.3/7 on 65% TS, but his record, missed games and change of team put him out of the equation


please refer to this post from now on instead of just trolling, if you think lebron has an undeserved lead or the media is just handing it to him

[Roy The Natural]

Read on Twitter

Statistically we have a Jokic/Embiid partnership at the top, with Kawhi right there and Lebron a bit behind him for your top 4 candidates. This, of course excluding factors like team success and durability that would hit some of these players' campaign. The narrative factor as well.

So basically you have 8 statistical measurements that show how terribly inaccurate +/- is as a statistical measure with wildly varying outcomes depending on the criteria used and the 9th which seems to show us the clearest picture as to who adds the greatest win probability.

Steph Curry adds the most win probability by a fairly substantial margin.

Flair for that analysis checks out. No bias there at all. Funny thing about WPA is Curry actually doesn't lead it once you factor in other boxscore stats. He's 9th in kWPA.

[Roy The Natural]

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-19-edition

1) Lebron
2) Embiid
3) Dame
4) Steph
5) Jokic
6) Mitchell
7) Giannis
8) KD
9) Leonard
10) Harden

Advanced metrics don't win you the mvp, it's about counting stats+wins (possibly, winning more than you're expected to win or than the previous year, unlike what jokic and giannis are doing)+not missing games+narrative

At a certain point this thread gotta realize that Lebron has been 1° in all three of the ladders, and in that voters straw poll that that twitter guy did. Obviously I don't agree with it all (jokic at 5th is too low considering he's been the best as far as individual level, kd has no business being that high, etc) but again, lebron has good ppg/rpg/assists, respectable ts% and defense and tos, hasn't missed a game and has a good record (the 2nd best in the nba), he's borderline top 5/easy top 10 best as far as advanced metrics go. Also 5-2 without ad as of now. Embiid has missed 6 games, leonard has missed 7, jokic is 15-13 and he wasn't expected to lose this much after going 46-27 last year, dame is a bad defender and he isn't a stat sheet filler like some other guys, giannis is 16-13 after going 56-17 last year, steph is 16-13 (+ same flaws as dame), mitchell and gobert have an incredible record but they aren't good enough, kd misses and loses too many games, harden doesn't have the insane stat sheet he used to have + he's losing too much, doncic is losing too much.

Narrative wise:
Lebron is the only guy to have a positive narrative on his side, the others either have a neutral one or a negative one. His narrative is: 36 years old goat who has just won the championship and hasn't won an mvp since 2013 despite being the best player in the world (player of the year) in most of those years, meanwhile those who do win the mvp often don't step up or have something missing from their game to maintain their level in the playoffs, while he's notorious to step up his game in the playoffs. That's a great narrative to have.
Other guys have a neutral narrative (embiid, dame, jokic, leonard), meaning that they are just superstar players having great seaons, there isn't anything new to them as far as storyline. Leonard also has a slightly negative narrative in the fact that as he was being considered the best player in the world and better than lebron, rightfully, after being the player of the year in 2019, he failed big time choking a 3-1 lead
Giannis, harden have a negative narrative in being past mvp winners who don't step up in the playoffs and lack something to maintain their level in post season.
Steph has a slightly positive narrative being the unlucky player (because of klay's injury, obviously kd's departure 2 years ago) who's carrying a trash team.
Mitchell and Gobert also slight positive being "newcomers" (as far as mvp candidacy) and being the unexpected first seed playing beautiful basketball.

All in all if you don't understand why Lebron is first and you've followed the nba for a while you're really dumb or a hater.

Also put it this way: there are a number of guys who can be ahead of lebron in one are: -overall individual level/-offensive production/team record/two way level, but all of them have a big disadvantage in some other areas

-Jokic has way better numbers than Lebron, but better enough to overcome a 6 wins, 6 positions (2th seed to 8th seed) difference?
-Embiid has better numbers than lebron, enough to overcome 6 more missed games and 2.5 wins?
-Mitchell and Gobert have 2.5 more wins (while being expected to win less than the lakers on paper), is it enough to put them ahead despite being considerably worse than him as far as numbers/individual level of play?
-Leonard is probably playing slightly better than lebron, enough to overcome 7 more missed games?
-Dame has a more impressive record (compared to supporting cast and expectations), and you can argue he's been better than lebron offensively, but the defensive gap is bag, plus he has 3 less wins and 1 more missed game
--Giannis has been better than lebron if the two ends of the floor (more scoring on higher efficiency, more rebounds and defense), but is it enough to overcome 5.5 wins, 1 more missed game difference?
-Steph has been better offensively, but again, big defense/rebounds/record gap
-Doncic bigger overall production, but even if you'd put his offensive value above lebron's, lebron's defense and record>
-KD way better scoring, and he also has nice rebounds and assists, and I'd say his defense has been superior to lebron's, but his missed games put him out of the equation.
-Harden, way better on offense as he averages 24.4/11.3/7 on 65% TS, but his record, missed games and change of team put him out of the equation


please refer to this post from now on instead of just trolling, if you think lebron has an undeserved lead or the media is just handing it to him

Disagree with your narrative take. Lillard 100% has a good narrative is the Blazers continue streaking. With the injuries they have, the Blazers are vastly less talented then many teams below them in the standings. If Lillard spends a large portion of the season dominating in the clutch and the Blazers manage to sneak into the top 3 in the Western Conference, I'm not sure there's a stronger narrative in the NBA than that. Lillard already has 3-4 of the most memorable games of the season. The Bulls game, the Thunder game, the Pelicans game, and the 76ers game. He's just completely taking games over down the stretch right now and willing his team to incredible wins in a way that no one else in the league currently is. If that narrative continues and he keeps piling up end of game heroics while keeping his overall statistics hovering around the 30ppg and 64TS% area, he has an incredibly strong narrative built on clutch time heroics and iconic/memorable games.

[Impuniti]

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-19-edition

Updated MVP race

1. Lebron (1)
2. Embiid (2)
3. Dame (8)
4. Curry (7)
5. Joker (3)

Next 5
6. Spider
7. Greek Freek
8. KD
9. Klaw
10. Harden


Gobert unsurprisingly getting shafted over his inferior partner.

[Statlanta]

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-19-edition

1) Lebron
2) Embiid
3) Dame
4) Steph
5) Jokic
6) Mitchell
7) Giannis
8) KD
9) Leonard
10) Harden

Advanced metrics don't win you the mvp, it's about counting stats+wins (possibly, winning more than you're expected to win or than the previous year, unlike what jokic and giannis are doing)+not missing games+narrative

You are missing one thing. It's about new narrative. LeBron has the same old tired narrative. Consistency. He always coasts in the regular season and all these close games with trash teams, with the full roster, are indicative of it. Guys like Lillard, Gobert, Embiid and Jokic have improved and their season highlights show new things we haven't seen from them. It's hard to say LeBron has improved just changed his focus to other areas(reliance on jumpshots less paint dominance). Considering the narrative heading into the season was that the team around LeBron got better(possibly being his greatest supporting casts) thus influencing wins and certain counting stats like assists there's a reason even Zach Lowe is pushing the other guys right now.

[Gibson22]

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-19-edition

1) Lebron
2) Embiid
3) Dame
4) Steph
5) Jokic
6) Mitchell
7) Giannis
8) KD
9) Leonard
10) Harden

Advanced metrics don't win you the mvp, it's about counting stats+wins (possibly, winning more than you're expected to win or than the previous year, unlike what jokic and giannis are doing)+not missing games+narrative

You are missing one thing. It's about new narrative. LeBron has the same old tired narrative. Consistency. He always coasts in the regular season and all these close games with trash teams, with the full roster, are indicative of it. Guys like Lillard, Gobert, Embiid and Jokic have improved and their season highlights show new things we haven't seen from them. It's hard to say LeBron has improved just changed his focus to other areas(reliance on jumpshots less paint dominance). Considering the narrative heading into the season was that the team around LeBron got better(possibly being his greatest supporting casts) thus influencing wins and certain counting stats like assists there's a reason even Zach Lowe is pushing the other guys right now.

So, why has lebron been first in all the ladders and in the first voters straw pall?

[eminence]

Luckily Gobert has 205 million examples of how much the Jazz value him, cause damn the media doesn't.

[Gibson22]

Luckily Gobert has 205 million examples of how much the Jazz value him, cause damn the media doesn't.

He's still top 15 in the ladder. Not too bad.