RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[nikster]

I'll just push back on the easy statistical era argument against Lebron. The league wide average ppg is actually lower overall during his career than is for MJ. Sure it's higher scoring now but this is the tail end of his career, he started his career in the lowest scoring era in NBA history.

Lebrons longevity makes it hard to grasp the changing eras he gone through (and people tend to forget how high scoring 80s were). Westbrook joined the league 5 years later and Luka is basically a new generation who's rookies season started a whole new jump in ppg.

League wide ppg during their careers
Lebron: 103.3
MJ: 104.3 (Chicago years only)
Westbrook 105.3
Luka: 112.5

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

League wide PPG was definitely higher in the 10's than the 90's and has been significantly peaking as Lebron ages, which would explain how good he looks in older age (statistically)

Jordan's entire 2 3-peats and finals appearances were spent with PPG in the 90's. Lebron's last two were at 105 and 108 ppg league wide. But that's not even the important trait.

The importances of the statistical blow up is how easy it is for the stars to drive/kick in the game, and sure enough, stars now control far more possession than those of the 90s. I forgot the stat but we discussed it in another thread (it was 13 players now have X possession or above and in the 90s it was like 1 or 2. I'll have to look it up again).

As a result - In terms of PER, it isn’t even close how inflated it is among the stars now compared to those of the 90s.

In the 90s, a 30 PER was unheard of and this was done without the help of three pointers as well. Stats have definitely been inflated. Westbrook averaged nearly a 30 point triple double across three seasons. There’s no chance he pulls that off in the 90s. You also had Isiah Thomas leading the league in points with a vastly inferior skill set- no chance in the 90s that he’d do that.

You’ve had years, even in Lebron’s prime where a player had a higher PER (Steph for example). In Jordan’s career, he was far ahead of the rest. Even Hakeem had a PER of 25. Are you telling me Embiid is better than Hakeem Olajuwon?

PER is inflated now and Jokic is continuing to expose that, as I predicted players would all the way back in the 2010’s. I can post the lists later and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Take a look at this list. Look at that anomaly. (PER leap)

2023-24 NBA Nikola Jokić 30.97 DEN
2022-23 NBA Nikola Jokić 31.51 DEN
2021-22 NBA Nikola Jokić 32.85 DEN
2020-21 NBA Nikola Jokić 31.28 DEN
2019-20 NBA Giannis Antetokounmpo 31.86 MIL
2018-19 NBA Giannis Antetokounmpo 30.88 MIL
2017-18 NBA James Harden 29.83 HOU
2016-17 NBA Russell Westbrook 30.63 OKC
2015-16 NBA Stephen Curry 31.46 GSW
2014-15 NBA Anthony Davis 30.81 NOP
2013-14 NBA Kevin Durant 29.82 OKC
2012-13 NBA LeBron James 31.59 MIA
2011-12 NBA LeBron James 30.74 MIA
2010-11 NBA LeBron James 27.27 MIA
2009-10 NBA LeBron James 31.10 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 31.67 CLE
2007-08 NBA LeBron James 29.14 CLE
2006-07 NBA Dwyane Wade* 28.91 MIA
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki* 28.06 DAL
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett* 28.20 MIN
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett* 29.44 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady* 30.27 ORL
2001-02 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 29.68 LAL
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 30.23 LAL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 30.65 LAL
1998-99 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 30.55 LAL
1997-98 NBA Shaquille O'Neal* 28.79 LAL
1996-97 NBA Karl Malone* 28.90 UTA
1995-96 NBA David Robinson* 29.41 SAS
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 29.13 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 30.66 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.70 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 27.75 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.63 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.18 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.14 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 31.71 CHI
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 29.78 CHI
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 25.61 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 26.54 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 24.64 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 25.12 PHI
1981-82 NBA

Now look at how many players in the 10's and 20's you have with 30 PER... Anthony Davis? James Harden? Giannis, Jokic, WESTBROOK?

PER has been heavily inflated ever since it the court became open, threes expanded the game and made it easier for players to drive and kick and remember,

All of Jokic, Giannis and Luka have confirmed the game to be easier for them, Jokic specifically singling out the 3-second rule, stating that he takes advantage of that and it makes the game "so easy"


Now, what do we notice about that PER list? Among the top are bigs or players who rebound/block a lot, and point scorers exclusively. And that's because PER favors raw stats, not necessarily how great a player is. Of course it won't favor shooting guards. It'll make Kobe look worse than he actually was, because he definitely was better than Lebron for the first six years of Lebron's career. The league knew it, the GM voting knew it, the media knew it, and they even knew it as late as the olympics. But that's when their careers were beginning to intersect and Lebron was taking over.

Jordan, however, was an anomaly. He was automatic. He got that high of a PER without the rebounds/assists playing shooting guard in a system. The only other player to somewhat replicate that dominance (scoring at will) was Steph during his freakish year when he was lights out. But once again, PER has been inflated since and he couldn't replicate it in the playoffs.

Lot to unpack here. "Jordan's entire 2 3-peats and finals appearances were spent with PPG in the 90's. Lebron's last two were at 105 and 108 ppg league wide" Straight up not true. League average ppg was over 105.3 for Jordan's first 3 peat.

Really confused as to why your so focused on PER? It's only one catch all stat with significant flaws. Like you said it's just raw stats so what does it matter Lebron didn't always lead the league? And once again it's a matter of the different eras of Lebrons career. Lebrons 6 highest PER seasons came before the guys you are complaining about, and before he started making a high volume of 3s.

And the archetypes it benefits don't really apply to Lebron. Harden, Westbrook and Luka really dominate the ball Significantly more than Lebron ever did. Westbrook and Harden had had a time of possesion average above 9.2 seconds in 16-17, Luka was 9.1 his career PER year. The stat isn't available for Lebrons top 4 PERs but his 5th highest PER his time of possession was 5.5

Then like you said it benefits guys with rebounds/blocks, and in that sense Lebron is not on the level of racking up those kind of stats with guys like AD, Giannis and Jokic. While Jordan was an anomaly in terms of leading the league in PER with out very high rebounds and assists, his shooting volume was an anomaly. He took almost 5 more shots a game than Lebron during their respective stretches of leading the league in PER

[NZB2323]

I said three HOFers sir

Okay, so then in 1991, 1992, and 1993 Jordan wasn’t on a superteam, and in 1998 one of his hall of fame teammates only played in 44 games and had a back injury in the finals and his other hall of fame teammate was 36, skipped practice to do WWE during the finals, and washed out of the league afterwards.

And if you want to include HOF players then Jordan went against 5 hall of famers in the 86 and 87 playoffs.

Also, who played with more hall of fame players?

LeBron had Wade, Bosh, and Ray Allen in Miami.

Kyrie and Kevin Love in Cleveland.

Anthony Davis, Rondo, and Dwight in 2020.

Westbrook, Melo, Dwight, AD, Rondo in 2022. (Deleted a tweet encouraging people to keep the same level of energy up about criticizing his team’s age and won 33 games… Jordan won with the oldest championship group ever in 1998, having the only game in Finals history where 1 player outscored all his teammates, and with Pippen only playing 44 games. Lebron has never won a championship when his #2 only played 44 games.)

I’m amazed at how hard you all are trying to not get it

1998 was not a superteam, it was a carry job. Pippen only played in 44 games and was injured in the Finals. Rodman was 36 and washed out of the league. Kukoc is in the HOF because of his international accomplishments like Big Z, who played with LeBron.

Game 6 of the 1998 NBA finals is the only game in NBA history where 1 player outscored all of his teammates.

[Iwasawitness]

Okay, so then in 1991, 1992, and 1993 Jordan wasn’t on a superteam, and in 1998 one of his hall of fame teammates only played in 44 games and had a back injury in the finals and his other hall of fame teammate was 36, skipped practice to do WWE during the finals, and washed out of the league afterwards.

And if you want to include HOF players then Jordan went against 5 hall of famers in the 86 and 87 playoffs.

Also, who played with more hall of fame players?

LeBron had Wade, Bosh, and Ray Allen in Miami.

Kyrie and Kevin Love in Cleveland.

Anthony Davis, Rondo, and Dwight in 2020.

Westbrook, Melo, Dwight, AD, Rondo in 2022. (Deleted a tweet encouraging people to keep the same level of energy up about criticizing his team’s age and won 33 games… Jordan won with the oldest championship group ever in 1998, having the only game in Finals history where 1 player outscored all his teammates, and with Pippen only playing 44 games. Lebron has never won a championship when his #2 only played 44 games.)

I’m amazed at how hard you all are trying to not get it

1998 was not a superteam, it was a carry job. Pippen only played in 44 games and was injured in the Finals. Rodman was 36 and washed out of the league. Kukoc is in the HOF because of his international accomplishments like Big Z, who played with LeBron.

Game 6 of the 1998 NBA finals is the only game in NBA history where 1 player outscored all of his teammates.

I’m fine with people preferring MJ but we really got to stop with this revisionist history. 98 wasn’t a carry job at all.

[DimesandKnicks]

Okay, so then in 1991, 1992, and 1993 Jordan wasn’t on a superteam, and in 1998 one of his hall of fame teammates only played in 44 games and had a back injury in the finals and his other hall of fame teammate was 36, skipped practice to do WWE during the finals, and washed out of the league afterwards.

And if you want to include HOF players then Jordan went against 5 hall of famers in the 86 and 87 playoffs.

Also, who played with more hall of fame players?

LeBron had Wade, Bosh, and Ray Allen in Miami.

Kyrie and Kevin Love in Cleveland.

Anthony Davis, Rondo, and Dwight in 2020.

Westbrook, Melo, Dwight, AD, Rondo in 2022. (Deleted a tweet encouraging people to keep the same level of energy up about criticizing his team’s age and won 33 games… Jordan won with the oldest championship group ever in 1998, having the only game in Finals history where 1 player outscored all his teammates, and with Pippen only playing 44 games. Lebron has never won a championship when his #2 only played 44 games.)

I’m amazed at how hard you all are trying to not get it

1998 was not a superteam, it was a carry job. Pippen only played in 44 games and was injured in the Finals. Rodman was 36 and washed out of the league. Kukoc is in the HOF because of his international accomplishments like Big Z, who played with LeBron.

Game 6 of the 1998 NBA finals is the only game in NBA history where 1 player outscored all of his teammates.

So the LA ship wasn’t a superteam

The Cleveland ship wasn’t a super team because Kevin Love was Trash

And the second Heat championship wasn’t a superteam because Wade was hurt?

Right?

And Jordan beat Malone and friends.

Can I ask you a series question. How did the Bulls manage to win 55 games and take the conference champions to 7 games after losing their best player if the addition of MJ doesn’t put them over the edge and make them a superteam?

[bledredwine]

I’m amazed at how hard you all are trying to not get it

1998 was not a superteam, it was a carry job. Pippen only played in 44 games and was injured in the Finals. Rodman was 36 and washed out of the league. Kukoc is in the HOF because of his international accomplishments like Big Z, who played with LeBron.

Game 6 of the 1998 NBA finals is the only game in NBA history where 1 player outscored all of his teammates.

So the LA ship wasn’t a superteam

The Cleveland ship wasn’t a super team because Kevin Love was Trash

And the second Heat championship wasn’t a superteam because Wade was hurt?

Right?

And Jordan beat Malone and friends.

Can I ask you a series question. How did the Bulls manage to win 55 games and take the conference champions to 7 games after losing their best player if the addition of MJ doesn’t put them over the edge and make them a superteam?

Why did the team, who added players Jordan didn’t play with, go from having a mediocre season, barely above .500 in 94-95 to finishing the season 13-4 with a rusty Jordan, then the following season, crush the all time regular season NBA record with a 72-10 season, sweeping Shaq and Penny?

aka barely above .500 to 85-14 with MJ?

Then there’s that whole 3-peat thing happening again.
By the way, it's not "Malone and friends". It's Karl Malone and John Stockton's Utah Jazz. They were stellar
and that pairing would be known as one of the GOAT duos if not for the Bulls.
Heck, they still are.

Calling 1998 a superteam is wild, by the way. Did you not know that Pippen was a shell (injured) version o[f himself?

Gamescore
Jordan - 21.4
Pippen - 13.0
Kukoc - 11.5
Harper - 5.4
Longley - 3.7

Even in old age, Jordan had a huge impact on winning.
Take his season with injury on the Wizards.

In Jordan’s 46 games before knee injury the Wiz had a 26–20 (0.565 win%).
In games without MJ and post-injury, the Wizards had a 11–25 (0.300 win%)

This is also despite the absence of Rip Hamilton for about a month during Jordan’s 26–20 stretch.

There was also a thread on the player comparison forum comparing Jordan, Pippen and Rodman's records without each other in the lineup. Jordan had the best and it wasn't remotely close.

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron never quit on his team and retired because he was a addict and gambler.

Lebrons Longevity and Beating a 73-9 team & Winning Gold/Olympics MVP at 39yrs old will never be topped by Jordan

Lebron quit on teams many many times. Why do you think he switched on teams so often and colluded?

Nobody gives a **** about the Olympics, especially for team USA that is massive favorites every what. Lebron will never win defensive player of the year and scoring title in the same season

LeBron’s played out every single contract he’s ever had while never once requesting a trade, something even Jordan did.

Stop with this nonsense.

Jordan spent his entire career with one team. Lebron bailed on every team once the going got tough. Would have left the lakers by now if it wasn’t the end of his career. Hell, lebron is always known as a de facto GM unlike MJ who never told Krause what to do:

https://lasportshub.com/posts/lebron-james-wont-be-happy-this-new-cavs-report-01hz2sre9x9c



And never forget:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2014/08/lebron_james_i_dont_plan_on_go.html


Spoiler: he lied

[Rust_Cohle]

I’m amazed at how hard you all are trying to not get it

1998 was not a superteam, it was a carry job. Pippen only played in 44 games and was injured in the Finals. Rodman was 36 and washed out of the league. Kukoc is in the HOF because of his international accomplishments like Big Z, who played with LeBron.

Game 6 of the 1998 NBA finals is the only game in NBA history where 1 player outscored all of his teammates.

I’m fine with people preferring MJ but we really got to stop with this revisionist history. 98 wasn’t a carry job at all.

It 1000% was a carry job. Pippen was out half the season and was mediocre in those 98 finals. That team had a worst supporting cast and were terribly old and weaker teammates than any lebron title winning team. MJ carried them that year more than any other title winning Bulls team.


https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/15/sports/the-nba-finals-pippen-s-pain-pushes-jordan-to-greatest-feat.html

[LaLover11]

Lebron quit on teams many many times. Why do you think he switched on teams so often and colluded?

Nobody gives a **** about the Olympics, especially for team USA that is massive favorites every what. Lebron will never win defensive player of the year and scoring title in the same season

LeBron’s played out every single contract he’s ever had while never once requesting a trade, something even Jordan did.

Stop with this nonsense.

Jordan spent his entire career with one team. Lebron bailed on every team once the going got tough. Would have left the lakers by now if it wasn’t the end of his career. Hell, lebron is always known as a de facto GM unlike MJ who never told Krause what to do:

https://lasportshub.com/posts/lebron-james-wont-be-happy-this-new-cavs-report-01hz2sre9x9c



And never forget:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2014/08/lebron_james_i_dont_plan_on_go.html


Spoiler: he lied

MJ literally is on live video crying that if Pippen doesn't resign or gets traded from the bulls he will retire again lmao

[One Last Shot]

1998 was not a superteam, it was a carry job. Pippen only played in 44 games and was injured in the Finals. Rodman was 36 and washed out of the league. Kukoc is in the HOF because of his international accomplishments like Big Z, who played with LeBron.

Game 6 of the 1998 NBA finals is the only game in NBA history where 1 player outscored all of his teammates.

So the LA ship wasn’t a superteam

The Cleveland ship wasn’t a super team because Kevin Love was Trash

And the second Heat championship wasn’t a superteam because Wade was hurt?

Right?

And Jordan beat Malone and friends.

Can I ask you a series question. How did the Bulls manage to win 55 games and take the conference champions to 7 games after losing their best player if the addition of MJ doesn’t put them over the edge and make them a superteam?

Why did the team, who added players Jordan didn’t play with, go from having a mediocre season, barely above .500 in 94-95 to finishing the season 13-4 with a rusty Jordan, then the following season, crush the all time regular season NBA record with a 72-10 season, sweeping Shaq and Penny?

aka barely above .500 to 85-14 with MJ?

Then there’s that whole 3-peat thing happening again.
By the way, it's not "Malone and friends". It's Karl Malone and John Stockton's Utah Jazz. They were stellar
and that pairing would be known as one of the GOAT duos if not for the Bulls.
Heck, they still are.

Calling 1998 a superteam is wild, by the way. Did you not know that Pippen was a shell (injured) version o[f himself?

Gamescore
Jordan - 21.4
Pippen - 13.0
Kukoc - 11.5
Harper - 5.4
Longley - 3.7

Even in old age, Jordan had a huge impact on winning.
Take his season with injury on the Wizards.

In Jordan’s 46 games before knee injury the Wiz had a 26–20 (0.565 win%).
In games without MJ and post-injury, the Wizards had a 11–25 (0.300 win%)

This is also despite the absence of Rip Hamilton for about a month during Jordan’s 26–20 stretch.

There was also a thread on the player comparison forum comparing Jordan, Pippen and Rodman's records without each other in the lineup. Jordan had the best and it wasn't remotely close.

is this the comparison you are talking about? I dont have the data with Rodman but they only played for 3 years and these two played for most of their careers.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron’s played out every single contract he’s ever had while never once requesting a trade, something even Jordan did.

Stop with this nonsense.

Jordan spent his entire career with one team. Lebron bailed on every team once the going got tough. Would have left the lakers by now if it wasn’t the end of his career. Hell, lebron is always known as a de facto GM unlike MJ who never told Krause what to do:

https://lasportshub.com/posts/lebron-james-wont-be-happy-this-new-cavs-report-01hz2sre9x9c



And never forget:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2014/08/lebron_james_i_dont_plan_on_go.html


Spoiler: he lied

MJ literally is on live video crying that if Pippen doesn't resign or gets traded from the bulls he will retire again lmao

And yet Pippen begs for MJ to come back after having the bulls be a total disaster in 1995 until MJ returned:

https://youtu.be/N2wLmzXsuQw?si=q6KaGsfo_W0OnXJc

[LaLover11]

Jordan spent his entire career with one team. Lebron bailed on every team once the going got tough. Would have left the lakers by now if it wasn’t the end of his career. Hell, lebron is always known as a de facto GM unlike MJ who never told Krause what to do:

https://lasportshub.com/posts/lebron-james-wont-be-happy-this-new-cavs-report-01hz2sre9x9c



And never forget:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2014/08/lebron_james_i_dont_plan_on_go.html


Spoiler: he lied

MJ literally is on live video crying that if Pippen doesn't resign or gets traded from the bulls he will retire again lmao

And yet Pippen begs for MJ to come back after having the bulls be a total disaster in 1995 until MJ returned:

https://youtu.be/N2wLmzXsuQw?si=q6KaGsfo_W0OnXJc

Nobody is discussing Pippen as the Goat in this thread
Nice try

[LaLover11]

Read on Twitter

This is your Goat?

Biggest Quitter in NBA history
He knew that without Pippen & Phil he would've got exposed

[bledredwine]

So the LA ship wasn’t a superteam

The Cleveland ship wasn’t a super team because Kevin Love was Trash

And the second Heat championship wasn’t a superteam because Wade was hurt?

Right?

And Jordan beat Malone and friends.

Can I ask you a series question. How did the Bulls manage to win 55 games and take the conference champions to 7 games after losing their best player if the addition of MJ doesn’t put them over the edge and make them a superteam?

Why did the team, who added players Jordan didn’t play with, go from having a mediocre season, barely above .500 in 94-95 to finishing the season 13-4 with a rusty Jordan, then the following season, crush the all time regular season NBA record with a 72-10 season, sweeping Shaq and Penny?

aka barely above .500 to 85-14 with MJ?

Then there’s that whole 3-peat thing happening again.
By the way, it's not "Malone and friends". It's Karl Malone and John Stockton's Utah Jazz. They were stellar
and that pairing would be known as one of the GOAT duos if not for the Bulls.
Heck, they still are.

Calling 1998 a superteam is wild, by the way. Did you not know that Pippen was a shell (injured) version o[f himself?

Gamescore
Jordan - 21.4
Pippen - 13.0
Kukoc - 11.5
Harper - 5.4
Longley - 3.7

Even in old age, Jordan had a huge impact on winning.
Take his season with injury on the Wizards.

In Jordan’s 46 games before knee injury the Wiz had a 26–20 (0.565 win%).
In games without MJ and post-injury, the Wizards had a 11–25 (0.300 win%)

This is also despite the absence of Rip Hamilton for about a month during Jordan’s 26–20 stretch.

There was also a thread on the player comparison forum comparing Jordan, Pippen and Rodman's records without each other in the lineup. Jordan had the best and it wasn't remotely close.

is this the comparison you are talking about? I dont have the data with Rodman but they only played for 3 years and these two played for most of their careers.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

You're really leaving out context, like Jordan being injured with a broken foot for a season?
Enjoy the read! This'll help you understand those earlier Jordan seasons, since you're posting tweets without the understanding
behind why they're bad tweets.

JORDAN’S 1–9 PLAYOFF RECORD BEFORE PLAYING WITH SCOTTIE PIPPEN
Having no Scottie Pippen was not the only reason for Jordan’s struggles in the first 3 seasons of his career.
Jordan was drafted to a team of multiple cocaine addicts, including Orlando Woolridge and Quintin Dailey — both of whom eventually left the team due to their addictions.
Jordan also missed nearly his entire 2nd season due to a broken foot, during which the Bulls went 21–43 without Jordan. Do you really expect him to make it out the first round after missing nearly the entire season with a 21–43 team, and with crack addicts on top of that?
Jordan only played 2 full seasons before playing with Pippen thanks to his injury. Going off an extremely selective 2 season sample size, one can point out that LeBron didn’t even make the playoffs his first 2 seasons, or that Shaq had an 0–3 playoff record after his first 2 seasons.

JORDAN HAVING 5 LOSING SEASONS IN ALL 5 SEASONS WITHOUT PIPPEN
The first 3 seasons have already been explained. Lets take a look at Jordan’s Wizards years with FULL context.
MJ ’01-’02 SEASON BEFORE INJURY (AGE 38) THROUGH 46 GAMES
25.1 pts — 6.2 reb — 5.3 ast — 1.5 stl — 0.5 blk on 42%.
slightly better than his ’96 Finals MVP averages.
T-Mac was the only player to finish the season averaging at least 25–6–5
Defensively Jordan also had an impact even at this late stage of his career.
’01 Wizards — 2nd worst in ppg allowed the year before.
UP TO THE INJURY GAME ’02 WIZARDS
Allowed 92.2 ppg through 47 games (Jordan missed 1 game).
Would be tied for 6th-best in the league with the Pistons.
Allowed 92.0 ppg in the 46 games Jordan played.
Would be tied for 5th best in the league with the Nets.
AFTER JORDAN’S INJURY ’02 WIZARDS
Allowed 96.8 ppg in the remaining 35 games
Would be ranked 19th in the league
And fell to 11th in ppg allowed for the overall season.
The only negative of Jordan’s game was FG%, which is to be expected at the tail end of your career, and his low FG% had much more to do with his back, rib, knee, and wrist injuries along with his old age, rather than the defense he was facing. However, low FG% doesn’t necessarily equate to a negative effect on your team’s win column.
In Jordan’s 46 games before knee injury the Wiz had a 26–20 (0.565 win%).
In games without MJ and post-injury, the Wizards had a 11–25 (0.300 win%)
This is also despite the absence of Rip Hamilton for about a month during Jordan’s 26–20 stretch. In the last 16 games that Rip and Jordan played together prior to Jordan’s knee collision, the Wizards went 15–1, and they won 13 straight games when both of them played together. Had both Rip and MJ stayed healthy, they very well could have cracked 50 wins overall despite starting the season 2–9 and being a 19-win team the previous year. After Jordan’s injury, Rip went 9–24 (0.273 win%) in the remaining games he played, so it was clearly Jordan who had by far the most impact on the W column. The following season, Jordan didn’t have as much of an impact on the W column in the ’02-’03 season as they went 37–45. His impact prior to injury is unquestionable, however.
SOME MORE FACTS
Jordan — 31–12 (0.721 win%) without Pippen in the last 3peat.
Jordan — 36–9 (0.800 win%) without Rodman in ’95-’96 and ’96-’97 seasons.
In the ’97-’98 season, The Bulls started off 9–7 without Pippen and then went 15–4 in their next 19 games before Pippen’s return. Once they found their rhythm, they were playing exceptionally well without him.
The ’93-’94 Bulls had a similar scenario where they started off the season 4–7, but ended up with 55 wins, and the same thing happened with the ’01-’02 Wizards starting 2–9 but going 26–20 overall in the games Jordan played pre-injury, even with Rip Hamilton missing about a month.


from:
https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/the-truth-about-michael-jordan-without-scottie-pippen-780fbc23640f

[Rust_Cohle]

:lol:

Read on Twitter

This is your Goat?

Biggest Quitter in NBA history
He knew that without Pippen & Phil he would've got exposed

Lebron got exposed in the finals with one of the worst finals winning percentage in nba history. And it is easy to see why when the going gets tough for him:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/7zfcm3/eddie_house_says_lebron_james_quit_during_2011/

[DimesandKnicks]

Why did the team, who added players Jordan didn’t play with, go from having a mediocre season, barely above .500 in 94-95 to finishing the season 13-4 with a rusty Jordan, then the following season, crush the all time regular season NBA record with a 72-10 season, sweeping Shaq and Penny?

aka barely above .500 to 85-14 with MJ?

Then there’s that whole 3-peat thing happening again.
By the way, it's not "Malone and friends". It's Karl Malone and John Stockton's Utah Jazz. They were stellar
and that pairing would be known as one of the GOAT duos if not for the Bulls.
Heck, they still are.

Calling 1998 a superteam is wild, by the way. Did you not know that Pippen was a shell (injured) version o[f himself?

Gamescore
Jordan - 21.4
Pippen - 13.0
Kukoc - 11.5
Harper - 5.4
Longley - 3.7

Even in old age, Jordan had a huge impact on winning.
Take his season with injury on the Wizards.

In Jordan’s 46 games before knee injury the Wiz had a 26–20 (0.565 win%).
In games without MJ and post-injury, the Wizards had a 11–25 (0.300 win%)

This is also despite the absence of Rip Hamilton for about a month during Jordan’s 26–20 stretch.

There was also a thread on the player comparison forum comparing Jordan, Pippen and Rodman's records without each other in the lineup. Jordan had the best and it wasn't remotely close.

is this the comparison you are talking about? I dont have the data with Rodman but they only played for 3 years and these two played for most of their careers.

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You're really leaving out context, like Jordan being injured with a broken foot for a season?
Enjoy the read! This'll help you understand those earlier Jordan seasons, since you're posting tweets without the understanding
behind why they're bad tweets.

JORDAN’S 1–9 PLAYOFF RECORD BEFORE PLAYING WITH SCOTTIE PIPPEN
Having no Scottie Pippen was not the only reason for Jordan’s struggles in the first 3 seasons of his career.
Jordan was drafted to a team of multiple cocaine addicts, including Orlando Woolridge and Quintin Dailey — both of whom eventually left the team due to their addictions.
Jordan also missed nearly his entire 2nd season due to a broken foot, during which the Bulls went 21–43 without Jordan. Do you really expect him to make it out the first round after missing nearly the entire season with a 21–43 team, and with crack addicts on top of that?
Jordan only played 2 full seasons before playing with Pippen thanks to his injury. Going off an extremely selective 2 season sample size, one can point out that LeBron didn’t even make the playoffs his first 2 seasons, or that Shaq had an 0–3 playoff record after his first 2 seasons.

JORDAN HAVING 5 LOSING SEASONS IN ALL 5 SEASONS WITHOUT PIPPEN
The first 3 seasons have already been explained. Lets take a look at Jordan’s Wizards years with FULL context.
MJ ’01-’02 SEASON BEFORE INJURY (AGE 38) THROUGH 46 GAMES
25.1 pts — 6.2 reb — 5.3 ast — 1.5 stl — 0.5 blk on 42%.
slightly better than his ’96 Finals MVP averages.
T-Mac was the only player to finish the season averaging at least 25–6–5
Defensively Jordan also had an impact even at this late stage of his career.
’01 Wizards — 2nd worst in ppg allowed the year before.
UP TO THE INJURY GAME ’02 WIZARDS
Allowed 92.2 ppg through 47 games (Jordan missed 1 game).
Would be tied for 6th-best in the league with the Pistons.
Allowed 92.0 ppg in the 46 games Jordan played.
Would be tied for 5th best in the league with the Nets.
AFTER JORDAN’S INJURY ’02 WIZARDS
Allowed 96.8 ppg in the remaining 35 games
Would be ranked 19th in the league
And fell to 11th in ppg allowed for the overall season.
The only negative of Jordan’s game was FG%, which is to be expected at the tail end of your career, and his low FG% had much more to do with his back, rib, knee, and wrist injuries along with his old age, rather than the defense he was facing. However, low FG% doesn’t necessarily equate to a negative effect on your team’s win column.
In Jordan’s 46 games before knee injury the Wiz had a 26–20 (0.565 win%).
In games without MJ and post-injury, the Wizards had a 11–25 (0.300 win%)
This is also despite the absence of Rip Hamilton for about a month during Jordan’s 26–20 stretch. In the last 16 games that Rip and Jordan played together prior to Jordan’s knee collision, the Wizards went 15–1, and they won 13 straight games when both of them played together. Had both Rip and MJ stayed healthy, they very well could have cracked 50 wins overall despite starting the season 2–9 and being a 19-win team the previous year. After Jordan’s injury, Rip went 9–24 (0.273 win%) in the remaining games he played, so it was clearly Jordan who had by far the most impact on the W column. The following season, Jordan didn’t have as much of an impact on the W column in the ’02-’03 season as they went 37–45. His impact prior to injury is unquestionable, however.
SOME MORE FACTS
Jordan — 31–12 (0.721 win%) without Pippen in the last 3peat.
Jordan — 36–9 (0.800 win%) without Rodman in ’95-’96 and ’96-’97 seasons.
In the ’97-’98 season, The Bulls started off 9–7 without Pippen and then went 15–4 in their next 19 games before Pippen’s return. Once they found their rhythm, they were playing exceptionally well without him.
The ’93-’94 Bulls had a similar scenario where they started off the season 4–7, but ended up with 55 wins, and the same thing happened with the ’01-’02 Wizards starting 2–9 but going 26–20 overall in the games Jordan played pre-injury, even with Rip Hamilton missing about a month.


from:
https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/the-truth-about-michael-jordan-without-scottie-pippen-780fbc23640f

John Stockton injured his mcl at 36 and pretty much had the impact of Jason Kidd on the mavs.

Was that Jazz team a super team?

What do you think there record would have been if Malone retired the following season?

The question I asked was about them winning 55 games after Jordan left and still being a title contender.

[MavsDirk41]

I said three HOFers sir

I am going to assume that Westbrook, Davis, Howard, and Carmelo will eventually be inducted into the nba HOF. If that is the case were the 33-49 21/22 Lakers with James, Davis, Howard, and Carmelo a superteam? What about the 43-39 22/23 Lakers with James, Davis, and Westbrook?

The Bulls had HOF George Gervin on the bench in the 1986 playoffs and Jordan could still not win a single game against Larry Bird.The only time Jordan beat Larry Bird in the playoffs it was when he was head coach of the pacers

Ok so does that mean Larry Bird is better than Jordan?

James is:
5-11 against Duncan in the playoffs
11-17 against Curry in the playoffs
5-9 against Jokic in the playoffs

Are they better than James? Of course not lol. Not sure what point you are trying to make with this Bird/ Jordan thing. The Bulls team sucked in 86 minus Jordan.

[bledredwine]

:lol:

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This is your Goat?

Biggest Quitter in NBA history
He knew that without Pippen & Phil he would've got exposed

Lebron got exposed in the finals with one of the worst finals winning percentage in nba history. And it is easy to see why when the going gets tough for him:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/7zfcm3/eddie_house_says_lebron_james_quit_during_2011/

Not only that, but he has some of the worst finals slaughters of all time.... against his own team.

I'm talking point differential for the series, not a game.

[bledredwine]

I am going to assume that Westbrook, Davis, Howard, and Carmelo will eventually be inducted into the nba HOF. If that is the case were the 33-49 21/22 Lakers with James, Davis, Howard, and Carmelo a superteam? What about the 43-39 22/23 Lakers with James, Davis, and Westbrook?

The Bulls had HOF George Gervin on the bench in the 1986 playoffs and Jordan could still not win a single game against Larry Bird.The only time Jordan beat Larry Bird in the playoffs it was when he was head coach of the pacers

Ok so does that mean Larry Bird is better than Jordan?

James is:
5-11 against Duncan in the playoffs
11-17 against Curry in the playoffs
5-9 against Jokic in the playoffs

Are they better than James? Of course not lol. Not sure what point you are trying to make with this Bird/ Jordan thing. The Bulls team sucked in 86 minus Jordan.

The ironic thing is they're just reminding me of how badass Jordan was on those poor early Bulls squads

Watch on YouTube

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OMAbudTomjw[/youtube]

Watch on YouTube

Bulls were supposed to lose the above series! If he misses that shot, they're eliminated, if he made it, they win the series.

And who can forget? The only back to back 50 point playoff games in history!

Watch on YouTube

[Homer38]

The Bulls had HOF George Gervin on the bench in the 1986 playoffs and Jordan could still not win a single game against Larry Bird.The only time Jordan beat Larry Bird in the playoffs it was when he was head coach of the pacers

Ok so does that mean Larry Bird is better than Jordan?

James is:
5-11 against Duncan in the playoffs
11-17 against Curry in the playoffs
5-9 against Jokic in the playoffs

Are they better than James? Of course not lol. Not sure what point you are trying to make with this Bird/ Jordan thing. The Bulls team sucked in 86 minus Jordan.

The ironic thing is they're just reminding me of how badass Jordan was on those crap early Bulls squads

Watch on YouTube

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OMAbudTomjw[/youtube]

LeBron had also some great game in a losing effort with a poor supporting cast against a great team....And he did not take 41 FGA and like 20 FTA to have his points

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Homer38]

The Bulls had HOF George Gervin on the bench in the 1986 playoffs and Jordan could still not win a single game against Larry Bird.The only time Jordan beat Larry Bird in the playoffs it was when he was head coach of the pacers

Ok so does that mean Larry Bird is better than Jordan?

James is:
5-11 against Duncan in the playoffs
11-17 against Curry in the playoffs
5-9 against Jokic in the playoffs

Are they better than James? Of course not lol. Not sure what point you are trying to make with this Bird/ Jordan thing. The Bulls team sucked in 86 minus Jordan.

The ironic thing is they're just reminding me of how badass Jordan was on those poor early Bulls squads

Watch on YouTube

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OMAbudTomjw[/youtube]

Watch on YouTube

Bulls were supposed to lose the above series! If he misses that shot, they're eliminated, if he made it, they win the series.

And who can forget? The only back to back 50 point playoff games in history!

Watch on YouTube

True it was an upset in 1989 when they won against the cavs, but I also think Mark Price's injury didn't help... He even missed 1 game in that serie and he had been very poor in that series with below 40% from the field and almost the same that turnovers that assists with a 22-19 ratio

Also, the cavs during that time were a perfect matchup for Jordan since Jordan's greatest strength was as a scorer and the cavs let Jordan take as many shots as he wanted without adjusting once