MVP Discussion [19/20] [part I] - voting reopened

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Giannis was ok with his 19 minutes and a blowout

[freethedevil]

AD comfortably better than Giannis? How can you even justify that?

LeBron is better on offense but Giannis more than makes up the gap defensively.

It's pretty debatable if ad is even better than giannis defensively. AD's a better rim protector, but Giannis is still oen of the best rim protectors AND one of the league's best perimeter defender. Overall isn't a real discussion

AD being better defensively isn't debatable at all. He's the better rim protector and shot blocker

Shot blocking is covered by rim protection.

, he's the better perimeter defender, he can sometimes guard both guys on the pick and roll at the same time. Giannis has zero argument on defense.

Absolutely ridiculous assertion. Giannis had the biggest effect of the effiency of the players he guarded. He covers ground much quicker, contests far more shots, and can guard more positions. Giannis is indisputably the better perimiter defender. If rim protection wasn't more important than perimiter d, ad would have no case. As it is tho, Giannis has been more impactful defensively by the most predictive metrics this and last season and is still one of the league's best rim protectors. AD's case is a pretty weak one.

On offense it's more of a debate, Giannis is better at running an offense,

Yes.

but AD's more versatile scoring and overall skillset, namely his leagues better off ball game, make him a better fit in most offenses while Giannis pretty much has to run the entire offense to be maximized and he has never shown the ability to lead an elite playoff offense.

Giannis is the more effecient scorer and scores at higher volume. If defenses could get away with sagging off Giannis, your shooting point might be slightly more compelling,but given that both the celtics and the -10 raptors D got eviscerated when they gave Giannis space to drive/shoot, it really isn't. As it is, Giannis has been shooting as well as AD since last year's asb after he changed his shooting.

Did I say every stat rivaled Jordan/Lebron or that he was as good as them? Some do however. For instance, the top 2 per game scorers in NBA playoff history are Michael Jordan, followed by Anthony Davis. 5th highest PER in NBA playoff history; his true shooting % is top 15 (higher than Jordan/Lebron). Over his short playoff career, he's averaging 31/13/2, with 2 steals and 3 blocks, on 59% TS; in this case the short sample size actually works against him since the bulk of his games played were against the dynasty Warriors, who are also an elite playoff defense. We never saw anything close to this in Giannis's also short playoff career, in fact we saw some serious struggles on the offensive end.

Giannis's playoff numbers are better than AD's but go off.

Giannis wasn't "exposed" by defenses that sagged off, he destroyed those. He was exposed as a playmaker, which may be relevant if AD could run an offense.

[/quote]

And as a scorer, his playoff scoring leaves a lot to be desired and is clearly inferior to AD's.

18-19 Giannis managed comparable effiency on higher usage against better playoff defenses. Clearly inferioir,is a laughable claim. Giannis is probably better, and given it's the only thing davis has an argument on, that's pretty sad.

in the only series where he faced an opponent somewhat comparable to the dynasty Warriors (against whom most of AD's playoff body of work has occured) he averaged 23 on 52% TS; it's hard to imagine AD ever having such a poor scoring series given the robustness of his scoring skillset.

The raptors were a VASTLY better defense than anyone AD's played. I also have to think you don't understand what happened in the playoffs if you're still rambling about AD's shooting. The raptors tried to sag off Giannis like the celtics did in the first two games. As a result, they ,a -10 defense, got destroyed, even though the bucks were shooting significantly worse from threes and open looks. The raptors stopped sagging off in game 3 and decided to leave the paint to blitz him with three to four people. As AD is even worse as a playmaker, isn't nearly as good at maneuvering around defenders and doesn't have nearly the amount of gravity Giannis does, I think we can safely say AD would have done worse with no one to run the offense for him.

Being exposed as a playmaker is a big deal because Giannis has to be the primary playmaker in his team's offense due to his lack of off ball game, while AD doesn't.

Ad doesn't have an off-ball game, sorry. Giannis's screens are more valuable than ad's below average shooting,which by the way, Giannis has replicated for almost a year now.

As for Giannis's playoff numbers being better than AD, I don't know why you keep inventing stuff that is so obviously false, it's not the first or second time you do that when debating with me. Why? You could just say the sample size is too small or whatever.

You not knowing the numbers doesn't make you right. Giannis's 18/19 playoffs were better than any of AD's in pipm, backpicks bpm, and luck adjusted rapm. In case you're wondering, all those stats do a vastly better job predicting winning and induvidual impact then ws/48 or per. Though if you insist onusing those, you should know Giannis's per, bpm, and ws/48 throughout the first two rounds were higher than any of AD's playoff runs.

But I guess AD's better cause he couldn't get past the second round. Maybe if he could lead a +8 srs team, he wouldn't have had to keep getting swept aside by the warriors.

[RB34]

+50 is insane.

[GeorgeMarcus]

.

I agree with most of what you said above, but AD is very good off-ball. He's an excellent rim runner/finisher around the basket whereas Giannis is more comfortable creating for himself. I think that's why the LeBron/AD combo has worked so seamlessly.

[Dupp]

AD not having an off the ball game? That’s not really true. There’s more to plying off the ball than jump shooting. He had a very good off ball game.


Weird people go to extremes saying players can’t do things or suck at this or that to prop up their own guy.

[freethedevil]

.

I agree with most of what you said above, but AD is very good off-ball. He's an excellent rim runner/finisher around the basket whereas Giannis is more comfortable creating for himself. I think that's why the LeBron/AD combo has worked so seamlessly.

The post is a comparison. Giannis is the better rim runner, the better screener and a comparably bad shooter. Giannis also has drawn doubles without the ball on the post. Davis doesn't really have an off-ball advantage over giannis.

[freethedevil]

AD not having an off the ball game? That’s not really true. There’s more to plying off the ball than jump shooting. He had a very good off ball game.


Weird people go to extremes saying players can’t do things or suck at this or that to prop up their own guy.

Wierd when people can't read. AD's off ball game isn't as good as Giannis and like I've outlined Giannis is better at the no-shooting off-ball aspects of the game like cutting, putbacks, or setting screens.

[freethedevil]

, passing,

Tbf, AD may be a better pure passer than Giannis. He has a higher passer rating for example. But while he maybe more skilled in a vacuum, Giannis's passes are far more valuable thanks to his effect on defenses, hence why he creates far more than davis does.

[Dupp]

AD not having an off the ball game? That’s not really true. There’s more to plying off the ball than jump shooting. He had a very good off ball game.


Weird people go to extremes saying players can’t do things or suck at this or that to prop up their own guy.

Wierd when people can't read. AD's off ball game isn't as good as Giannis and like I've outlined Giannis is better at the no-shooting off-ball aspects of the game like cutting, putbacks, or setting screens.

“ AD doesn’t have an off ball game, sorry”

That is what you said.

[freethedevil]

AD not having an off the ball game? That’s not really true. There’s more to plying off the ball than jump shooting. He had a very good off ball game.


Weird people go to extremes saying players can’t do things or suck at this or that to prop up their own guy.

Wierd when people can't read. AD's off ball game isn't as good as Giannis and like I've outlined Giannis is better at the no-shooting off-ball aspects of the game like cutting, putbacks, or setting screens.

“ AD doesn’t have an off ball game, sorry”

That is what you said.

Yes, compared to Giannis, he doesn't. You understand the post is a comparison?

[Dupp]

, passing,

Tbf, AD may be a better pure passer than Giannis. He has a higher passer rating for example. But while he maybe more skilled in a vacuum, Giannis's passes are far more valuable thanks to his effect on defenses, hence why he creates far more than davis does.

Eh AD is good but a bit overrated as a passer. I definitely think giannis is much better “pure passer” than Ad and obviously a way better playmaker.

[freethedevil]

Tbf, AD may be a better pure passer than Giannis. He has a higher passer rating for example. But while he maybe more skilled in a vacuum, Giannis's passes are far more valuable thanks to his effect on defenses, hence why he creates far more than davis does.

Eh AD is good but a bit overrated as a passer. I definitely think giannis is much better “pure passer” than Ad and obviously a way better playmaker.

It's possible AD's passing numbers is inflated by his limited role as a playmaker. Kinda like KD.

[Dupp]

Wierd when people can't read. AD's off ball game isn't as good as Giannis and like I've outlined Giannis is better at the no-shooting off-ball aspects of the game like cutting, putbacks, or setting screens.

“ AD doesn’t have an off ball game, sorry”

That is what you said.

Yes, compared to Giannis, he doesn't. You understand the post is a comparison?

You’re jumping through hoops to pretend like you didn’t say something. Yes the post is a comparison but you flat out said AD couldn’t play off ball and went on to say because of his average shooting.

[Dupp]

Tbf, AD may be a better pure passer than Giannis. He has a higher passer rating for example. But while he maybe more skilled in a vacuum, Giannis's passes are far more valuable thanks to his effect on defenses, hence why he creates far more than davis does.

Eh AD is good but a bit overrated as a passer. I definitely think giannis is much better “pure passer” than Ad and obviously a way better playmaker.

It's possible AD's passing numbers is inflated by his limited role as a playmaker. Kinda like KD.

This is kinda going off topic now but I actually think kd is very underrated as a passer and much better than people think. I guess we’ll find out if he can get healthy because playing with Kyrie he’ll have to be much note of a playmaker.

[GeorgeMarcus]

.

I agree with most of what you said above, but AD is very good off-ball. He's an excellent rim runner/finisher around the basket whereas Giannis is more comfortable creating for himself. I think that's why the LeBron/AD combo has worked so seamlessly.

The post is a comparison. Giannis is the better rim runner, the better screener and a comparably bad shooter. Giannis also has drawn doubles without the ball on the post. Davis doesn't really have an off-ball advantage over giannis.

I'm not convinced Giannis is a better rim runner, although I've been wrong before.

[LesGrossman]

Stats aside and ignoring the fact that AD is a top player in this league, do you not see that LeBron isnt contributing a bit on defense? He plays zero help, does not box out but just tries to get in position to grab a rebound. Noone noticed? He goes for one or two highlight chasedowns per game but otherwise its 4 on 5 on D for the Lakers.

Also i am impressed how Kawhi gets so little discussion. Year after year people fall for the chest pounding showboaters while Kawhi is about to earn the third title with the third team.

This is just false. LA has the number one defense in the league. You don’t achieve that if one guy is causing you to play 4 on 5 defensively every possession he’s on the floor.

Lakers’ DRTG:

Davis ON, LeBron OFF:
109.5 DRTG

Davis ON, LeBron ON:
102.9 DRTG

Dwight ON, LeBron OFF:
106.0 DRTG

Dwight ON, LeBron ON:
103.5 DRTG

Davis ON, Dwight ON, LeBron OFF:
104.8 DRTG

Davis ON, Dwight ON, LeBron ON:
95.0 DRTG

LeBron is very clearly the third best defender on the #1 rated defensive team. And once you factor in minutes (considering he’s playing 35 mpg to Dwight’s 20) he’s providing the second most defensive value on the Lakers behind Anthony Davis. Which isn’t an insult considering he’s the league’s DPOY thus far.

This reminds me of that southpark episode about photoshopped images that somehow become more credible than the ugly reality. I said "all stats aside" and i talk about the eye test, and predictably a flood of stats are delivered. Well stats will be found to prove whatever point you want to make. But if you watch the actual game - try it, its fun! - you would see him not guard his guy (usually the weakest offensive player), instead pretending to help, but moving out of the way consistently when he should actually help and step in; and when the shot goes up, he doesnt box anyone out but i see him bend his knees in case the shot is missed and a rebound can be grabbed (to pad beforementioned stats; in the right way, boxing out is far more important than grabbing the actual board). That is something i observed over multiple games. I feel like people are unable to watch any action that isnt on the ball, but force yourself from time to time to watch what goes on outside the main duel.

So if you compare this effort to that of Giannis or for example Kawhi, its nowhere near MVP worthy. Same goes for Luka btw whose refusal to play D is on hardenesque levels. I know this league is only shaped to deliver easily digestable entertainment these days and strong defense is not appreciated, but i hope this level of D isnt considered MVP worthy by anyone who has a vote.

[clyde21]

It's very telling that in this discussion no one has really given a real argument for Giannis being better than AD unless we're counting variations of "Lol at AD being better" as argument, seems like we're just supposed to assume he is.

Oh well, as always the playoffs reveal everything and we'll know the answer to this and who's right come May and June assuming both are healthy. I feel very confident in my assessment of AD being a tier above at both ends though, he's just a more complete player with a more resilient skillset.

i mena, it's pretty straightforward. Giannis is on pace to get his second MVP while AD has yet to sniff even one. Giannis is an infinitely better playmaker, just as good of a scorer, better 3 level defender, better transition player, the more durable player by a mile, and is coming off a season in which he led his team to 67 wins and the ECF while Davis could barely even get his team to .500 while he was on the floor.

like, it's not even a discussion at this point. anyone that takes Davis over Giannis just doesn't know basketball...point blank.

[Dupp]

Stats aside and ignoring the fact that AD is a top player in this league, do you not see that LeBron isnt contributing a bit on defense? He plays zero help, does not box out but just tries to get in position to grab a rebound. Noone noticed? He goes for one or two highlight chasedowns per game but otherwise its 4 on 5 on D for the Lakers.

Also i am impressed how Kawhi gets so little discussion. Year after year people fall for the chest pounding showboaters while Kawhi is about to earn the third title with the third team.

This is just false. LA has the number one defense in the league. You don’t achieve that if one guy is causing you to play 4 on 5 defensively every possession he’s on the floor.

Lakers’ DRTG:

Davis ON, LeBron OFF:
109.5 DRTG

Davis ON, LeBron ON:
102.9 DRTG

Dwight ON, LeBron OFF:
106.0 DRTG

Dwight ON, LeBron ON:
103.5 DRTG

Davis ON, Dwight ON, LeBron OFF:
104.8 DRTG

Davis ON, Dwight ON, LeBron ON:
95.0 DRTG

LeBron is very clearly the third best defender on the #1 rated defensive team. And once you factor in minutes (considering he’s playing 35 mpg to Dwight’s 20) he’s providing the second most defensive value on the Lakers behind Anthony Davis. Which isn’t an insult considering he’s the league’s DPOY thus far.

This reminds me of that southpark episode about photoshopped images that somehow become more credible than the ugly reality. I said "all stats aside" and i talk about the eye test, and predictably a flood of stats are delivered. Well stats will be found to prove whatever point you want to make. But if you watch the actual game - try it, its fun! - you would see him not guard his guy (usually the weakest offensive player), instead pretending to help, but moving out of the way consistently when he should actually help and step in; and when the shot goes up, he doesnt box anyone out but i see him bend his knees in case the shot is missed and a rebound can be grabbed (to pad beforementioned stats; in the right way, boxing out is far more important than grabbing the actual board). That is something i observed over multiple games. I feel like people are unable to watch any action that isnt on the ball, but force yourself from time to time to watch what goes on outside the main duel.

So if you compare this effort to that of Giannis or for example Kawhi, its nowhere near MVP worthy. Same goes for Luka btw whose refusal to play D is on hardenesque levels. I know this league is only shaped to deliver easily digestable entertainment these days and strong defense is not appreciated, but i hope this level of D isnt considered MVP worthy by anyone who has a vote.

[TheHartBreakKid]

Yeah trust me when I say this, I am far, far, far from a James harden fan. But there is no shame in finishing the third when you're having a monster game like that, no matter the deficit. Hell, even if he wanted to come back in in the fourth to chase 80, I wouldn't hate on that either. This is history we are talking about.


That said though, MVP is really between Lebron and Giannis right now. A lot could happen to change that, but I really don't see anyone else having a realistic shot if the season ended today.

[freethedevil]

Stats aside and ignoring the fact that AD is a top player in this league, do you not see that LeBron isnt contributing a bit on defense? He plays zero help, does not box out but just tries to get in position to grab a rebound. Noone noticed? He goes for one or two highlight chasedowns per game but otherwise its 4 on 5 on D for the Lakers.

Also i am impressed how Kawhi gets so little discussion. Year after year people fall for the chest pounding showboaters while Kawhi is about to earn the third title with the third team.

This is just false. LA has the number one defense in the league. You don’t achieve that if one guy is causing you to play 4 on 5 defensively every possession he’s on the floor.

Lakers’ DRTG:

Davis ON, LeBron OFF:
109.5 DRTG

Davis ON, LeBron ON:
102.9 DRTG

Dwight ON, LeBron OFF:
106.0 DRTG

Dwight ON, LeBron ON:
103.5 DRTG

Davis ON, Dwight ON, LeBron OFF:
104.8 DRTG

Davis ON, Dwight ON, LeBron ON:
95.0 DRTG

LeBron is very clearly the third best defender on the #1 rated defensive team. And once you factor in minutes (considering he’s playing 35 mpg to Dwight’s 20) he’s providing the second most defensive value on the Lakers behind Anthony Davis. Which isn’t an insult considering he’s the league’s DPOY thus far.

This reminds me of that southpark episode about photoshopped images that somehow become more credible than the ugly reality. I said "all stats aside" and i talk about the eye test, and predictably a flood of stats are delivered.

1. your analogy makes zero sense. The statistics are drawn from the exact same "ugly reality" as your opinions of things. This reminds me why deflectionary tangents are so very irritating to read. The flood of stats calls into question contradicts your opinion, which, btw, is exactly what your eyetest is. Everyone here has an opinion. That you state your opinions without doing the research to back it up does not make you intelligent or knowledgable. What it does mean is your opinions aren't open to scrutiny, hence why you want to discuss your eyes, even though, you estimating how frequently things happen on the basketball floor over a small sample size despite biologically being unable to capture more than 5 things at once(yes, that's biology), because if you cite your eyetest and refuse to prevent stats you escape the scrutiny people who provide a basis for their opinions receive. You say "stats can be found to prove whatever point you want to make," yet you failed to find them. I'd expect that to make you more humble but it's magically done the opposite:

. But if you watch the actual game - try it, its fun! -

You've magically concluded you have better intuitive knowledge of the game than someone whose done research. That's pretty incredible. Given what you proceeded to say, it's clearly delusion:

So if you compare this effort to that of Giannis or for example Kawhi, its nowhere near MVP worthy.

Did you really just put Giannis, one of the best on-ball AND off-ball perimiter defenders in the game and one of the leagues best rim protectors in the same breath as kawhi, a bad off-ball defender, who provides less rim protection than 17th year lebron and only has high value on the ball(which covers a small fraction of a defender's defensive possesions)? Do you think it's a conspiracy that the raptors d margially improved without kawhi in the playoffs despite fantastic "when kawhi was the primary defender" stats?

Your eyetest is evidently useless and it's no wonder you rant about watching the game the second someone whose informed provides you information. Lebron has made the lakers defense better whenever he's on the court. Kawhi has failed to replicate that when he's not playing role player minuites.

Remember, everyone has an eyetest(opinion) here. The only difference is some are knowledgeable to back it up. Clearly, you are not.