2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 3: Son of daughter of MVP thread)

[iggymcfrack]

He will probably win it since they are tired of giving it to Jokic ….i think Jokic going get Lebron treatment

The treatment where he only gets the MVP when he has the best regular season? Thats fair. Like in 2014, LeBron was clearly the best player in the world, but just as clearly he got outplayed by KD in the regular season downshifting a bit after 3 straight Finals runs.

The closest thing there ever was to a “robbery” in LeBron’s career was 2006 when he lost to Nash. Voter fatigue clearly wasn’t a factor there as Nash was the MVP the previous year and LeBron hadn’t won one yet.

[Exp0sed]

He will probably win it since they are tired of giving it to Jokic ….i think Jokic going get Lebron treatment

The treatment where he only gets the MVP when he has the best regular season? Thats fair. Like in 2014, LeBron was clearly the best player in the world, but just as clearly he got outplayed by KD in the regular season downshifting a bit after 3 straight Finals runs.

The closest thing there ever was to a “robbery” in LeBron’s career was 2006 when he lost to Nash. Voter fatigue clearly wasn’t a factor there as Nash was the MVP the previous year and LeBron hadn’t won one yet.

exactly

2014 wasn't voter fatigue in no shape or form. "best player in the league" is determined in the playoffs and yes, LBJ was the best player then and everyone knew it but the MVP is a rs award and KD had literally every possible argument over LBJ

a 25 years old KD led OKC to 59 wins (where as LBJ with Wade and Bosh only managed 54), he played in 81 games to LBJ's 77 and averaged 5 more ppg, more Rebs and wasn't even that far behind on Assists while having only half the turnovers, on nearly identical shooting efficiency (LBJ was slightly better in that regard but that's neglible with 5 extra ppg)

KD also had higher Vorp, BPM etc. that season. everyone knew LBJ was a better player but he'd taken a step back to feed his co-stars and KD outplayed him in the rs, period

[GeorgeSears]

There are two head-to-head matchups coming up in March between Nuggets and Thunder, and one of them is nationally televised.

Jokic probably needs to win those matchups to stay in the race.

[Wolfgang630]

One voter on Twitter said today he would change his vote to Jokic over SGA. This straw poll was taken how long ago?

[Doctor MJ]

He will probably win it since they are tired of giving it to Jokic ….i think Jokic going get Lebron treatment

The treatment where he only gets the MVP when he has the best regular season? Thats fair. Like in 2014, LeBron was clearly the best player in the world, but just as clearly he got outplayed by KD in the regular season downshifting a bit after 3 straight Finals runs.

The closest thing there ever was to a “robbery” in LeBron’s career was 2006 when he lost to Nash. Voter fatigue clearly wasn’t a factor there as Nash was the MVP the previous year and LeBron hadn’t won one yet.

Yeah I'll just concur:

While something that could be called "voter fatigue" is a real thing, it's not something that actually burned LeBron, and in general it's not something that has burned anyone all that much. What mostly ends up happening is that guys who've won multiple MVPs just don't take the regular season as seriously because they know that their further legacy will be all about the playoffs.

This then to say that while LeBron could be argued to deserve more than 4 MVPs, I don't think there was any year where he got clearly robbed.

By contrast, Jokic actually should have 4 MVPs right now instead of 3.

ftr, I don't think Jordan was robbed in '92-93, but I think he was robbed in '96-97, so put me down feel he should have 6.

[canada_dry]

SGA leading Jokic in the 2nd MVP straw poll 70-30 https://archive.ph/yT0Ba

Mehhhhh. Joker has continued playing at all time great while the other has fallen off some

"The other" ya'll are weird

[ky_23]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

[Exp0sed]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Denver has won 8 games in a row vs. pretty weak competition and OKC has been winning 8 in a row over and over during the season so far.I think ur coping (and i'm a big Jokic stan), MVP was never a measurement of how good or historic an individual season is, the award has a team component baked into it

what SGA is doing is historic too as you say (albeit not on Jokic's level) and it's more than just the PPG, efficiency or the stats - it's also an aura thing haha, the way SGA and the OKC are doing it is tremendous and SGA has straight up been dominating the league since the first tip in of the first game of the season (which incidentally was a game in which they blew out Denver, in Denver and held them to 87 friggin' points )

more importantly as far as the team component goes, 5 or 6 or 8 games apart is one thing but when that gap is from #2 to a team that currently is having the best SRS and defense (at least statistically) in NBA history - it matters alot

SGA is likely going to be rewarded for the OKC historic season and rightfully so as he's the main driver behind it

yes, Jokic is having THAT caliber of a season but SGA is hard to deny with the type of season he and his team are having

[BigGargamel]

am i coping or people really sweeping the fact that jokic is literally having one of the best individual seasons ever, if not best, under the rug? i mean i am not talking about a great season or an all time great season. this is literally one of best seasons a player has ever had. we will use this year's jokic as a reference in the future when evaluating another player's performance along with 16 curry, 13 lebron, 96 jordan, 01 shaq etc. guy is averaging a 30 point triple double while having the best PER of all time. no disrespect to sga tho he is also having a historical season and definitely has to be up there with jokic on mvp race. leading the offense of arguably the best team in the league projected to win 65+ and leading the league in pts. but i think there is not much enough gap between team successes right now for sga to be in front of jokic since denver have won 8 in a row and about to take 2nd seed. this will give jokic a strong case

Denver has won 8 games in a row vs. pretty weak competition and OKC has been winning 8 in a row over and over during the season so far.I think ur coping (and i'm a big Jokic stan), MVP was never a measurement of how good or historic an individual season is, the award has a team component baked into it

what SGA is doing is historic too as you say (albeit not on Jokic's level) and it's more than just the PPG, efficiency or the stats - it's also an aura thing haha, the way SGA and the OKC are doing it is tremendous and SGA has straight up been dominating the league since the first tip in of the first game of the season (which incidentally was a game in which they blew out Denver, in Denver and held them to 87 friggin' points )

more importantly as far as the team component goes, 5 or 6 or 8 games apart is one thing but when that gap is from #2 to a team that currently is having the best SRS and defense (at least statistically) in NBA history - it matters alot

SGA is likely going to be rewarded for the OKC historic season and rightfully so as he's the main driver behind it

yes, Jokic is having THAT caliber of a season but SGA is hard to deny with the type of season he and his team are having

"Aura"

That's a new one. Anything except the stats, I suppose.

[QPR]

I think it's speaks to how good SGA has been that this is a legitimate race, given what Jokic is doing.

[QPR]

SGA leading Jokic in the 2nd MVP straw poll 70-30 https://archive.ph/yT0Ba

Seems pretty reasonable to me for reasons I've detailed earlier. Shai's in the lead, Jokic is close behind, everyone else is a step behind that.

A step behind is a bit on an understatement

Bontemps said there was only one ballot who didn't have SGA and Jokic as 1 and 2 (in any order)

Looks like someone had Giannis second and Jokic third, so hopefully that person doesn't have an actual vote come season's end.

[Exp0sed]

"Aura"

That's a new one. Anything except the stats, I suppose.

the "aura" part was tongue in cheek, lol

it meant to say: the dominant manner in which SGA is doing what he's doing. there's more to basketball than a boxscore, you know..

btw, the "stats" don't paint Jokic as being in a different tier or anything

Jokic fans are quick to cite the stats that clearly favor him (Vorp, BPM, raw stats) and not so quick to cite the ones that don't.
also games played and games won are also a "stat" technically, is there a statisical based argument for Jokic? ofc there is but there's one for SGA as well, depending on which stats you examine and how you contextualize and interepert them

[Exp0sed]

Seems pretty reasonable to me for reasons I've detailed earlier. Shai's in the lead, Jokic is close behind, everyone else is a step behind that.

A step behind is a bit on an understatement

Bontemps said there was only one ballot who didn't have SGA and Jokic as 1 and 2 (in any order)

Looks like someone had Giannis second and Jokic third, so hopefully that person doesn't have an actual vote come season's end.

yeah, that dude should get his voting privileges revoked

[RB34]

He will probably win it since they are tired of giving it to Jokic ….i think Jokic going get Lebron treatment

The treatment where he only gets the MVP when he has the best regular season? Thats fair. Like in 2014, LeBron was clearly the best player in the world, but just as clearly he got outplayed by KD in the regular season downshifting a bit after 3 straight Finals runs.

The closest thing there ever was to a “robbery” in LeBron’s career was 2006 when he lost to Nash. Voter fatigue clearly wasn’t a factor there as Nash was the MVP the previous year and LeBron hadn’t won one yet.

The difference in this case is that Jokic is upshifting, having one of the best statistical seasons ever. Not only that, the eye test checks out.

[RB34]

Wild that people are now talking down the competition Jockic has faced and implying he is just a box score filler.

Watching SGA get his 50 ball with 20 free throws is exhilarating.

[bstein14]

He will probably win it since they are tired of giving it to Jokic ….i think Jokic going get Lebron treatment

The treatment where he only gets the MVP when he has the best regular season? Thats fair. Like in 2014, LeBron was clearly the best player in the world, but just as clearly he got outplayed by KD in the regular season downshifting a bit after 3 straight Finals runs.

The closest thing there ever was to a “robbery” in LeBron’s career was 2006 when he lost to Nash. Voter fatigue clearly wasn’t a factor there as Nash was the MVP the previous year and LeBron hadn’t won one yet.

The difference in this case is that Jokic is upshifting, having one of the best statistical seasons ever. Not only that, the eye test checks out.

SGA's season stats are incredibly close this year to what they were last year when he finished second to Jokic.

Rebounds, Assists, Steals, FG% slightly down and 3pt%, Points and Blocks slightly up but overall it feels almost the same. His team is better, and people who know basketball knew how big of an impact the Caruso + Hartenstein adds were and people who know basketball know that losing KCP was an important piece gone in the Denver equation.

Statistically Jokic took a massive jump forward in 3 point shooting this year which puts him top 5 in the league and he also upped several other statistics by notable increases. If Jokic finishes 2nd in the West while continuing to do what he does he'll get robbed if they give it to SGA but it won't be unexpected.... SGA's real case is if the Nuggest are in the 6th/7th/8th seed because he is close enough, even though Jokic is clearly ahead statistically.... that a big difference in the standings can get him the MVP.

[MoneyTalks41890]

The treatment where he only gets the MVP when he has the best regular season? Thats fair. Like in 2014, LeBron was clearly the best player in the world, but just as clearly he got outplayed by KD in the regular season downshifting a bit after 3 straight Finals runs.

The closest thing there ever was to a “robbery” in LeBron’s career was 2006 when he lost to Nash. Voter fatigue clearly wasn’t a factor there as Nash was the MVP the previous year and LeBron hadn’t won one yet.

The difference in this case is that Jokic is upshifting, having one of the best statistical seasons ever. Not only that, the eye test checks out.

SGA's season stats are incredibly close this year to what they were last year when he finished second to Jokic.

Rebounds, Assists, Steals, FG% slightly down and 3pt%, Points and Blocks slightly up but overall it feels almost the same. His team is better, and people who know basketball knew how big of an impact the Caruso + Hartenstein adds were and people who know basketball know that losing KCP was an important piece gone in the Denver equation.

Statistically Jokic took a massive jump forward in 3 point shooting this year which puts him top 5 in the league and he also upped several other statistics by notable increases. If Jokic finishes 2nd in the West while continuing to do what he does he'll get robbed if they give it to SGA but it won't be unexpected.... SGA's real case is if the Nuggest are in the 6th/7th/8th seed because he is close enough, even though Jokic is clearly ahead statistically.... that a big difference in the standings can get him the MVP.

SGA is scoring 2.5 more a game in the same minutes this year on slightly better efficiency. And the Thunder are on pace to win like 15 more games than Denver. Seeding doesn’t matter if it’s that massive a gap.

Straw poll shows us where it’s at now. It’s SGA’s to lose.

[Exp0sed]

SGA's season stats are incredibly close this year to what they were last year when he finished second to Jokic.

Rebounds, Assists, Steals, FG% slightly down and 3pt%, Points and Blocks slightly up but overall it feels almost the same. His team is better, and people who know basketball knew how big of an impact the Caruso + Hartenstein adds were and people who know basketball know that losing KCP was an important piece gone in the Denver equation.

Statistically Jokic took a massive jump forward in 3 point shooting this year which puts him top 5 in the league and he also upped several other statistics by notable increases. If Jokic finishes 2nd in the West while continuing to do what he does he'll get robbed if they give it to SGA but it won't be unexpected.... SGA's real case is if the Nuggest are in the 6th/7th/8th seed because he is close enough, even though Jokic is clearly ahead statistically.... that a big difference in the standings can get him the MVP.

i'll admit I haven't checked out SGA's raw stats for a bit and it coincided with this stretch of some less great games (still great but as great) and i checked them out when I read ur post and was kinda surprised at how close they were to last season indeed

makes me wonder how much of the race rn is actually mostly voter fatigue

apart from scoring two more ppg, he's having an almost identical season to last season, the Thunder were first last season too and it came out completely out of left field, not like this season when everyone was expecting it. if it wasn't good enough to win last year, how can it beat an even better season from Jokic (better than his last one, I mean)

I suppose many of his voters would argue he should have won it last season to over Jokic

like I said in previous posts, I think what drives SGA's case over the edge is a combo of voter fatigue (wanting to give it to someone who hadn't gotten one yet, maybe the powers at be think it'd be better marketing wise, as well) and OKC's insane and historic season. the stats are likely to be consistent for both superstars and they're going to average by season's end, about what they're averaging now, so that shouldn't sway many opinions either way. however, if OKC get down from that historic pedestal, start dropping a few more games and end up with 62 wins and not 68 (for example) with a great top 10 SRS ever (but not the best ever) and drop down somehwat defensively - we'll see a big shift among voters back to Jokic, especially if it'll coincide with an impressive showing in their two h2h in March

[TunaFish]

The difference in this case is that Jokic is upshifting, having one of the best statistical seasons ever. Not only that, the eye test checks out.

SGA's season stats are incredibly close this year to what they were last year when he finished second to Jokic.

Rebounds, Assists, Steals, FG% slightly down and 3pt%, Points and Blocks slightly up but overall it feels almost the same. His team is better, and people who know basketball knew how big of an impact the Caruso + Hartenstein adds were and people who know basketball know that losing KCP was an important piece gone in the Denver equation.

Statistically Jokic took a massive jump forward in 3 point shooting this year which puts him top 5 in the league and he also upped several other statistics by notable increases. If Jokic finishes 2nd in the West while continuing to do what he does he'll get robbed if they give it to SGA but it won't be unexpected.... SGA's real case is if the Nuggest are in the 6th/7th/8th seed because he is close enough, even though Jokic is clearly ahead statistically.... that a big difference in the standings can get him the MVP.

SGA is scoring 2.5 more a game in the same minutes this year on slightly better efficiency. And the Thunder are on pace to win like 15 more games than Denver. Seeding doesn’t matter if it’s that massive a gap.

Straw poll shows us where it’s at now. It’s SGA’s to lose.

I believe Denver is 8.5 games behind OKC at the moment. Not sure if you can conclude that Denver will fall father behind as you propose, however. They play each other on a back to back in March in OKC and I think that outcome could be a factor.

Should be some great basketball ahead.

[Exp0sed]

The difference in this case is that Jokic is upshifting, having one of the best statistical seasons ever. Not only that, the eye test checks out.

SGA is scoring 2.5 more a game in the same minutes this year on slightly better efficiency. And the Thunder are on pace to win like 15 more games than Denver. Seeding doesn’t matter if it’s that massive a gap.

Straw poll shows us where it’s at now. It’s SGA’s to lose.

that "on pace" might be somewhat misleading tho, no?

the Nuggets started the season poorly with Jokic playing out of his mind and no1 else showing up at all, most notably Murray whowas playing like a G League player. after the Nuggets lost to the Wizards (breaking a 16 games losing streak) with Jokic going for a career high they dropped down to 11-10 on the season. since then they are 25-9.

also uncharecteristically, Jokic missed a couple of games including three games on baby watch, if not for that baby watch, they'd probably have a win or two more and he's unikely to have another baby during this season

they're currently "on pace" for 53 wins but it's pretty clear they're better than a 53 wins team and will likely out pace that pace the rest of the way, imo

the Thunder on the other hand seem to be trending the other way, after their big win in Cleveland they were 34-6 but have since gone 10-4, also depending on how many games the Cavs drop along the way at some point OKC's game might become meaningless and they'll bench starters

I think something in the 8-10 gap range is much more likely than a 15+ gap tbh, so what if it's 9? what it's 7?
what's the formula to knowing how big of a gap trumps Jokic's individual advantage? pretty subjective, I guess