MVP Rankings 1.0

[Bgil]

Funny how Pau Gasol no longer is considered soft now that he's Bryant's super sidekick.

lol so true.

[JimMurray]

You realize the East was better than the West last year right?

LebronCavs....I love you.

But you're not allowed to make stuff up.

Check the head to head record. Just take a quick look at each conference last year.

Each was considerably better from 1-3 ( record wise) , and MUCH better from 10-15. 6 of the worst 7 teams were in the West last year. The West had an edge from 4-9 though. But the advantages the east had at the top and bottom, made them a better conference.

I don't give a s*** about the head to head record, that's not how you determine how tough a conference is. And that is THE WORST argument for a conference being better than I've ever heard in my life. Accounting for the 3-6 extra wins you get by playing in the East, everybody other than the top 3 were TERRIBLE.

Atlanta, Miami, Philadelphia, Chicago and Detroit don't make the playoffs in the West. That means you have a total of THREE legit playoff teams in the Eastern conference.

Three

[JimMurray]

"Even though it's hard for me to be objective, because I brought Kobe to Los Angeles, I do think LeBron has surpassed Kobe as a player." - Jerry West - 5/18/09

Noted...now count the rest.

As I recall, NBA people believed Kobe was better by a 2 to 1 margin. There's you're one. Now show me the rest...

[JimMurray]

"Even though it's hard for me to be objective, because I brought Kobe to Los Angeles, I do think LeBron has surpassed Kobe as a player." - Jerry West - 5/18/09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYZAgKRtM8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGJSiMq ... re=related

Those all predate the Jerry West quote, most by more than a year. Odd situation where Laker fans are arguing against Jerry West.

Cmon man....at least try to put up a fight. You know good and well they just did a poll on this on current NBA people three weeks ago. Furthermore, you know the results.

[JimMurray]

right, the same list says said the lakers had 4 of the 50 best players last year, the cavs had the better record, but somehow the team with only 1 top 50 player had the better record. How is that consistent with putting a player from the first team at the top? It's not like you can't find other problems with that list too. Does anyone really believe 38 year old Shaq is better than Pau Gasol or that McGrady is the 24th best player in the league? Would you honestly take Redd (49) over Bynum (50)?

Everyone already agreed that outside of the top 5, that list meant nothing.

Here's a homework assignment. List the top 50 basketball players currently in the league...and lets see how (Please Use More Appropriate Word) your list gets outside of the top 5. I'd actually love to see this. Actually, let me start for you...I already know your top 5

1. Lebron
2. Melo
3. Wade
4. Dirk
5. Paul
6. Bosh
7. Duncan
8. Howard
9. Rose
10. Gasol
11. Bynum
12. Odom
13. Kobe

Just so we get that out of the way...I want to see the rest of your list.

[JimMurray]

If the season ended today, the media would give Kobe the award. But that doesnt mean he would deserve it. Kobe has superior teammates, so he doesnt have to do everything for his team to win. If Kobe has a bad shooting night, the Lakers have the team defense and the personnel to over come that. While Lebron has to always be playing at his best to give the Cavs their best shot. Just check my sig.

So he doesn't deserve the award because he has good teammates?

Here's how you quantify that. Take Kobe off the Lakers...they don't win a championship. Take Lebron off the Cavs, they don't win a championship. So does it really matter? Furthermore, I can already give you two examples unequivocally where you pull Kobe off the floor, and the Lakers lose (Miami, Milwaukee). Kobe has the Lakers right where they are supposed to be, and Lebron is underachieving with a better team than he had last year. So Lebron can't be MVP.

If you say Kobe doesn't deserve the award.......who does? And don't say Lebron because we've already disqualified him.

[JimMurray]

Just check my sig.

Is that your big point? Is that your clincher? A stat that shows Kobe knows how to win, even when he's playing his C game, and a stat that shows what I've been arguing for 30 pages that Lebron fills box scores to the detriment of his team? Fail.

[JimMurray]

i just find it curious that Lakers fans are arguing so strongly against Jerry west. Did you look at the list of the names that voted? Do you think all of those people watch Kobe and LeBron on a nightly basis? Do you honestly value the player evaluation skills of people like Muggsy Bogues over Jerry West? A large percentage of the list hasn't had a tie to the league in decades.

Who's arguing strongly? I respect Jerry's opinion, and up until the ECF last year, I was inclined to agree with him. I'm curious what he would say now, considering Kobe's playing the best basketball of his career and Lebron has seemingly regressed. Also, I think last year people were blinded by the novelty that Lebron won 66 games with a team nobody expected to win 50. Now the novelty has worn off, and people see it for what it is. A superstar player underachieving with a 66 win team that got better during the off-season. Last year was an overreaction. Hell, it almost duped me. I had to give Lebron his props last year.

[JimMurray]

I had two points.

1 - the quality of the people voting isn't the best. There are quite a few people with no current ties to the league, Mugsy Bogues was just one example. There are quite a few more poeple like him on the list of voters than there are people like Jerry West.

It doesn't change the story of the majority does it? And by your own logic Jerry West's opinion should be valued less than Mugsy Bogues because he has played in the league more recently. Look, most of the people on that list are currently associated with the NBA in some capacity, and the fact Mugsy Bogues is on the list does not make this list unrepresentative of NBA opinion.

2 - where is the logic in saying the guy the voters said had 3 top 50 teammates last year, but finished with a worse record, is better than the guy who had no top 50 teammates. Perhaps there is not as much thought given to absolute positions withing the 50, but that doesn't change the fact that multiple teammates of Kobe's were voted into the 50. This either shows a built in lakers bias within the voters or shows that Kobe won less with a lot more help.

You can't argue both sides. Either the list was inaccurate past 5, or the entire list was accurate. If you argue A, you could put all 12 Lakers on the list and it wouldn't make a difference, since none of them would be in the top 5 other than Kobe. Even if you argue B, how does playing with good players preclude you from being the leagues best player?

[JimMurray]

the cavs aren't 4th in the east, they are 3rd by all of 1/2 a game and just 1 1/2 games out of first with a lot of season left to play.

And they expect LeBron to be MVP while expecting Kobe to have the better team, what does that say about who they think is the best player?

It tells me they expected Kobe to regress......but he hasn't. Lebron has regressed.

Oh yeah.....are you really trying to use Pre-Season polls to make your arguments?

[JimMurray]

Point taken. Still hard to take the opinions credible when people are writing mocking comments like that about a player.

On a related note, Chad Ford from ESPN in his chat just said Lebron is his #1 choice for MVP:

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/30030

Kobe, Melo, Dirk or Lebron? Who has been the MVP with 40% of the season played?
Chad Ford
(1:11 PM)


1. LeBron 2. Melo

Chad Ford hates Kobe, because Kobe refused to give him an exclusive one on one back in 04. Chad Ford is an idiot.

[JimMurray]

Its hilarious how LeBron homers can completely ignore the opinions of the majority, and come back with a quote from ONE guy and think that it means more.. Seriously guys?

This. Cmon Lebron fans....you have to step your game up.

[Bgil]

right, the same list says said the lakers had 4 of the 50 best players last year, the cavs had the better record, but somehow the team with only 1 top 50 player had the better record. How is that consistent with putting a player from the first team at the top?

The Cavs had the better regular season record but no one believed they were the superior team. The Lakers stomped them twice with an injured/sick Kobe.

[yiskobesogood]

If the season ended today, the media would give Kobe the award. But that doesnt mean he would deserve it. Kobe has superior teammates, so he doesnt have to do everything for his team to win. If Kobe has a bad shooting night, the Lakers have the team defense and the personnel to over come that. While Lebron has to always be playing at his best to give the Cavs their best shot. Just check my sig.

So he doesn't deserve the award because he has good teammates?

Here's how you quantify that. Take Kobe off the Lakers...they don't win a championship. Take Lebron off the Cavs, they don't win a championship. So does it really matter? Furthermore, I can already give you two examples unequivocally where you pull Kobe off the floor, and the Lakers lose (Miami, Milwaukee). Kobe has the Lakers right where they are supposed to be, and Lebron is underachieving with a better team than he had last year. So Lebron can't be MVP.

If you say Kobe doesn't deserve the award.......who does? And don't say Lebron because we've already disqualified him.

But Jim Murray, what you said isn't even true. Go check out the gamelog for the Lakers because I am sure you missed a bunch of laker games this season. Check out the interesting stat in everyone of the Laker losses, which is only 4.....Kobe scored less then 21 ppg. AND SHOT LESS THEN 40 PERCENT FROM THE FIELD....in the Lakers wins, his percentage is much higher......laker fans and Kobe fans who actually watch the games know, as Kobe goes the Lakers go. If Kobe has a rough shooting night, sometimes the game is close, and Kobe then hits the game winner, twice this year already, or we LOSE badly, see Denver and Dallas at home.

[yiskobesogood]

The MVP is between Melo and Kobe IMO. And I am not even a Lebron Hater. I love Lebron, one of my favorite players and the main reason is simply that, the intangibles, which people have mentioned. He is winning less with a better team then last season. Looking at his stats there just about normal where they were last season, its easy to assume he is not doing the other things that win games, Defense, Hitting in the clutch, making the players better around him etc.

[Dat Pass]

But Jim Murray, what you said isn't even true. Go check out the gamelog for the Lakers because I am sure you missed a bunch of laker games this season. Check out the interesting stat in everyone of the Laker losses, which is only 4.....Kobe scored less then 21 ppg. AND SHOT LESS THEN 40 PERCENT FROM THE FIELD....in the Lakers wins, his percentage is much higher......laker fans and Kobe fans who actually watch the games know, as Kobe goes the Lakers go. If Kobe has a rough shooting night, sometimes the game is close, and Kobe then hits the game winner, twice this year already, or we LOSE badly, see Denver and Dallas at home.

You sir, are correct.

In games in which Kobe has shot less than 40%: 1-3

Games in which Kobe has shot 40% +: 21-1

Games in which Kobe had 20+pts on 40%+ shooting: 20-0

[JimMurray]

But Jim Murray, what you said isn't even true. Go check out the gamelog for the Lakers because I am sure you missed a bunch of laker games this season. Check out the interesting stat in everyone of the Laker losses, which is only 4.....Kobe scored less then 21 ppg. AND SHOT LESS THEN 40 PERCENT FROM THE FIELD....in the Lakers wins, his percentage is much higher......laker fans and Kobe fans who actually watch the games know, as Kobe goes the Lakers go. If Kobe has a rough shooting night, sometimes the game is close, and Kobe then hits the game winner, twice this year already, or we LOSE badly, see Denver and Dallas at home.

I've watched every single Laker game this season....it's one of the few breaks I allow myself from studying (Law School is a b****). And you are right, that underscores Kobe's importance to this team, and I will not argue that. I'm not going to penalize Kobe for not being 26-0. You have to lose sometimes, when Kobe plays poorly, the Lakers chances of losing increase. Kobe simply hasn't had many bad games this season. On the flip side of that, Kobe knows how to win when he plays poorly. The odds of winning are diminished, but according to LebronsCavs sig, he's 8-4 or something like that when he plays like s***.

[yiskobesogood]

Dont post here much so I don't know who LebronsCavs is, but....where did he get this fact from? And what does he qualify as playing poorly as? I mean in the Bucks game had Kobe missed the final shot in OT that could have qualified as a "poor game" I think he shot like 13-30 that game or something, which isnt horrible but not Kobeesque I guess is the word I am looking for...I think the information I showed which shows that Kobe has poor games in losses is enough to show that if he plays bad it can't always be made up for. Now that can go both ways, and in some games I think Kobe does "shoot" us out of games, and sometimes that can be made up for. But, as Kobe as shown time and time again in the last few seasons those occurances have become more rare.

[kaiiu2324]

Lebron fans there is no reason in arguing in this thread. This whole forum is infested with Kobe fans who only will see one side of the story even if nothing is in Kobe's favor, its always something. People on here act as if the Cavs were a .500 team.LOL they are 21-8 despite losing the first 2 games,4 games behind the Lakers. 4 GAMES. Last year they won 66 games and this year they are on pace to win over 55 games and people say that isnt enough because they won 66 last year. Be serious people.Kobe and the Lakers hasnt done any thing people didnt expect them to do. They have the best record and are only one game ahead of Boston. A team that was expected to challenge the Bull 72 win record. You make a case that if Lebron doesnt win 66 games there is no way he wins MVP which is stupid.Well you can also make a case that if the Lakers dont win 66 games despite Kobe has no way in hell of winning the award despite having the most talented team in the league.

[Doctor MJ]

Is this a trick question? Even those clueless people Jay Leno finds to interview on the street know that Kobe's the MVP.

The better question: Who's second? It's a long way.

Best part.

Funny, you can spin that in a very different way. Those people only get on camera because they are too stupid to know the right answer to very basic questions. If you agree with them, does that mean that the question is so basic that even they get it right, or that your understanding is so weak that Jay couldn't tell the difference between you and them?