MVP discussion thread

[boateng]

Baiting

[boateng]

Given the following:

1.) Durant is a much better defender now than a lot of people either want to admit or realize

and

2.) Are we sure George truly impacts a game defensively on a much higher level than Durant given how hard it is for a perimeter defender to truly impact a game defensively? I'm not saying George isn't a better defender and doesn't have a high impact on that end of that floor for a wing, but how much higher of an impact does he really have than Durant?


Why do some people think the gap between George and Durant as defenders is about as big as the gap between Durant and George as offensive players?

PG is a better defender than Durant, if you cannot see that than your a durant homer

[NaturalThunder]

Given the following:

1.) Durant is a much better defender now than a lot of people either want to admit or realize

and

2.) Are we sure George truly impacts a game defensively on a much higher level than Durant given how hard it is for a perimeter defender to truly impact a game defensively? I'm not saying George isn't a better defender and doesn't have a high impact on that end of that floor for a wing, but how much higher of an impact does he really have than Durant?


Why do some people think the gap between George and Durant as defenders is about as big as the gap between Durant and George as offensive players?

PG is a better defender than Durant, if you cannot see that than your a durant homer

Now, how about re-reading my post and showing me where I actually said Durant was a better defender than George?

[lethalizer]

Given the following:

1.) Durant is a much better defender now than a lot of people either want to admit or realize

and

2.) Are we sure George truly impacts a game defensively on a much higher level than Durant given how hard it is for a perimeter defender to truly impact a game defensively? I'm not saying George isn't a better defender and doesn't have a high impact on that end of that floor for a wing, but how much higher of an impact does he really have than Durant?


Why do some people think the gap between George and Durant as defenders is about as big as the gap between Durant and George as offensive players?

Yeah, that question deserves an answer here, I'm wondering that myself as well.

[pacers33granger]

Given the following:

1.) Durant is a much better defender now than a lot of people either want to admit or realize

and

2.) Are we sure George truly impacts a game defensively on a much higher level than Durant given how hard it is for a perimeter defender to truly impact a game defensively? I'm not saying George isn't a better defender and doesn't have a high impact on that end of that floor for a wing, but how much higher of an impact does he really have than Durant?


Why do some people think the gap between George and Durant as defenders is about as big as the gap between Durant and George as offensive players?

George most definitely does impact the defensive end on a high level. Without him Hibbert isn't able to do what he does. It's not a coincidence that Hibbert started playing significantly better when George began to figure it all out.

He plays 6 more minutes than Hibbert and usually about 10 or so without him in total, but still has a DRTG of 94 this year (Hibbert's is 93). The defense is still at a high level when George plays with Watson, Scola, and Mahinmi (3 average at best defenders). Some of it is the team D.

As far as importance to the Pacer's D, Hibbert is 1A and George is 1B and that's only because Hibbert is a big and interior D is more valuable.

[Chalky White]

Durant looked better defensively last night than George. In the first half he and Thabo took turns defending George and he struggled, and in the second half Brooks used Durant to defend to the 4 & 5, which he did effectively. Also brought down 8 defensive boards.

I guess I'm not seeing the kind of defense from him that he's been created with.

[Hero]

Durant looked better defensively last night than George. In the first half he and Thabo took turns defending George and he struggled, and in the second half Brooks used Durant to defend to the 4 & 5, which he did effectively. Also brought down 8 defensive boards.

It's one game with OKC at home and the Pacers on a back to back after playing SA.
You're reading way too much into it. One game doesn't undo all that Paul George has done this season.

[xMADEinDADEx]

Baiting

[Pacerlive]

Given the following:

1.) Durant is a much better defender now than a lot of people either want to admit or realize

and

2.) Are we sure George truly impacts a game defensively on a much higher level than Durant given how hard it is for a perimeter defender to truly impact a game defensively? I'm not saying George isn't a better defender and doesn't have a high impact on that end of that floor for a wing, but how much higher of an impact does he really have than Durant?


Why do some people think the gap between George and Durant as defenders is about as big as the gap between Durant and George as offensive players?

Because they think that PG is the sole reason as to why the Pacers have one of the best defenses in the league.

So they put him on Scottie Pippen's level. Or try to.


Sent from my iPhone 5 using RealGM Forums mobile app

The fact is the Pacers defense doesn't double a superstar or all star wing player. This is why they are ranked very high defensively as a unit at defending the three and defending the post. George is the center piece of why they don't double not Hibbert because most teams don't have scoring big men that need to be doubled.

Hibbert deserves a lot of credit as well but the team has two anchors which is the main reason why the slow footed Hibbert doesn't get too out of position on his help defense and hence why he doesn't get called for too many fouls anymore. You can disregard PG defense but the scheme is 100% designed for a elite wing defender like George.

His opponents PER for sg,is .1 and for sf it's 9.7. No offense but you come off like you don't know what you are talking about regarding his defense.

[Rasho_libre]

Why are we debating between Paul George and kd defensively? It's not even close. Kd's damn well respectable and has become more than solid but pg is a stud on that end. Who cares about 1 game sample. As a player pg is not even in the same realm as kd but on defence it's the other way around. How many players in the league defend at the 3 spot like pg? I can only think of one other guy

[kingkirk]

2 users have now lost their posting privileges on the GB because of their baiting nonsense in this thread.

Can we not stoop to that level and actually discuss a legitimate topic? Having baiting nonsense from fanboys is childish.

[Pacerlive]

George also probably has better defenders at every position around him (outside of PF) compared to Durant and an infinitely better coach to make everything easier on him.

It comes down to the fact that Durant is clearly the better player, therefore has a much better chance to win MVP

Huh? Lance is a better defender than Sefolosha? George Hill is a better defender than Westbrook? I would say the only position the Pacers have a better defender besides George, is at C.

yeah, sefolosha has been god awful this year defensively. Durant has been our best perimeter defender.

Sefolosha is giving up 1.01 points per possession
Stephenson is giving up .86 points per possession

Stephenson has been a much better defender than Sefolosha this year. I'm glad Sefolosha is expiring because he's regressed massively so far.

George Hill is giving up a respectable .95 points per possession
Westbrook has apparently stepped up his defense this year though, .80 points per possession

Apparently Westbrook has been defending much better than the eye test shows or maybe I only remember the times he gets beat. But overall George has a much better defensive team than Durant does.


And I guess I have to compare Durant and George here, it is the MVP thread after all. Well here it goes

Durant - .87 ppp overall, .51 ppp in isolations, .77 ppp in post ups, .92 ppp in spot ups
George- .81 ppp overall, .65 ppp in isolations, .93 ppp in post ups, .93 ppp in spot ups

The myth that Durant is a bad defender needed to end last year. He's probably our best perimeter defender. The only problem he has on defense is he fouls too much

The obvious argument here is how much is the best offensive player defending the best opposing teams best player. This is something that dramatically skews stats. PG rarely takes breaks from the best opposing teams best player. The same can't be said of other superstar players.

[GreenBloodedC]

You should all stop arguing because the only correct answer is Michael Jordan Crawford

[Chalky White]

Why are we debating between Paul George and kd defensively? It's not even close. Kd's damn well respectable and has become more than solid but pg is a stud on that end. Who cares about 1 game sample. As a player pg is not even in the same realm as kd but on defence it's the other way around. How many players in the league defend at the 3 spot like pg? I can only think of one other guy

On the basis of what? Your generalizations get us nowhere.

[QRich3]

Are we sure George truly impacts a game defensively on a much higher level than Durant given how hard it is for a perimeter defender to truly impact a game defensively? I'm not saying George isn't a better defender and doesn't have a high impact on that end of that floor for a wing, but how much higher of an impact does he really have than Durant?

If you have to ask this you're not even paying attention when you watch the game. I'm not a Pacer fan or anything, but George is a delight to see on the the defensive end, there's no perimeter player in the league who comes close to the impact he's having so far this season, not Tony Allen, not Lebron or anyone else. Hibbert is an awesome defender, but it's a lot easier to look good as an anchor when your perimeter players are not letting the ball handler ever get to you in a confortable position. Watching George contort through screens like they aren't even there and stop crossovers and penetration without flinching is every beat as fun as any offensive player in the league. All of the Pacers starters are playing awesome defense, and to be honest I wouldn't be sure which one of them I would give the DPOY award to, I know it's the cliche to say the big man anchor impacts more than anyone and all that, but when I watch them play, the suffocating perimeter defense is what grabs my attention the most.

It's pretty silly to be arguing if George's advantage on Durant defensively is bigger than KD's advantage offensively, and I couldn't care less about it, but to act like George is not miles ahead of Durant on that end is laughable.

[therealbig3]

KingCuban should lose posting privileges for removing JCVD from his avatar.

[therealbig3]

I personally don't think George is on Durant's level. To me, there's LeBron...gap...Durant...gap...CP3...gap...George/Curry.

It's hard to say how much George is benefitted by Hibbert's presence, and offensively, as good as he's been, I really don't think he comes all that close to LeBron, Durant, or CP3. He's a fantastic wing defender for sure, but I think LeBron is better (bigger and stronger, can defend someone like Melo better, and does a better job on PFs). Of course though, in terms of who actually plays better defensively depends on LeBron's effort level, and he does tend to coast. But come playoff time, it becomes clear every year who the best perimeter defender in the game is: LeBron.

George has been fantastic though, no doubt about it. Never expected this kind of jump.

[QRich3]

It's hard to say how much George is benefitted by Hibbert's presence

What do you guys exactly mean with that? I mean, if you just look at stats you could imagine George coasting on defense and his +/- defensive numbers looking great because Hibbert is doing the dirty work or something along those lines, but if you watch a few possessions of any given game you quickly realise it's the other way around, Hibbert is great at protecting the rim but a lot of his work is eased by Hill, Stephenson and specially George barely ever leaving him to contest in bad situations.

He's a fantastic wing defender for sure, but I think LeBron is better (bigger and stronger, can defend someone like Melo better, and does a better job on PFs). Of course though, in terms of who actually plays better defensively depends on LeBron's effort level, and he does tend to coast. But come playoff time, it becomes clear every year who the best perimeter defender in the game is: LeBron.

Well I guess we'll have to discuss that when/if he gets to that effort level. Until then, what Lebron CAN do means nothing compared to what George IS doing.

I'm starting to look like a George homer and I was pretty sure I wasn't. Love watching the kid play though.

[therealbig3]

What do you guys exactly mean with that? I mean, if you just look at stats you could imagine George coasting on defense and his +/- defensive numbers looking great because Hibbert is doing the dirty work or something along those lines, but if you watch a few possessions of any given game you quickly realise it's the other way around, Hibbert is great at protecting the rim but a lot of his work is eased by Hill, Stephenson and specially George barely ever leaving him to contest in bad situations.

It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive...I think they help each other out a lot. It's good for Hibbert that his perimeter defenders can stay in front of their guys and allow him to help in optimal situations, and it's good for the perimeter defenders that they don't have to completely shut down their guy on the perimeter, because their big man has their back. For example, they can intentionally let their guy get by them as long as they funnel him to a specific part of the court where Hibbert is waiting.

Miami's defense is fantastic at rotating and trapping, but they don't have rim protection, really. Their best rim protector might just be LeBron (him or Bosh or Wade). Their defense is built entirely around their perimeter defenders and a lanky big man that's expected to move around on the perimeter. Indiana's defense is built entirely around the fact that the paint is shut down.

Well I guess we'll have to discuss that when/if he gets to that effort level. Until then, what Lebron CAN do means nothing compared to what George IS doing.

I'm starting to look like a George homer and I was pretty sure I wasn't. Love watching the kid play though.

I know, and I pointed that out, but performance in the playoffs is much more important anyway, and if LeBron ramps up his effort level on defense like he always does in the playoffs, there's no way I'm saying that George is the better defender based on regular season games when LeBron did better in the playoffs. And George wouldn't even have to have a dropoff in his defense, LeBron just has a higher ceiling on that end. LeBron was the best perimeter defender in the league imo the last 2 years (at least), and it's not like he gave 100% effort all the time in the regular season during that stretch.

[xStanton27]

Tonight Lebron silences the critics yet again