Rookie Discussion Thread

[rzzzzz]

It took me five minutes last year to figure out Towns was a much better prospect than Okafor. I didn't understand the "dilemma". Then again, Chad Ford is an idiot, and many people are just repeating his bs.

it gets more confusing when Okafor plays against Towns or KP, or Cousins for that matter. inconsistent until he's actually motivated, and then his physicality, along with those incredible moves down low, suddenly remind folks what all the fuss was about before he landed on the tanking sixers. curious to see what happens when he plays on a decent roster that actually wants to compete.

[Kabookalu]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN4dNUkcIRM[/youtube]

[erudite23]

I really don't want to argue against Book, because I love him and he's doing some good stuff. He was one of my favorite prospects in the draft, though I was terrified of him, and when Turner and Winslow went off the board with the two picks in front of the Jazz' pick, I was all in on drafting Booker. I hated Lyles as a prospect and didn't see why the Jazz were interested in him. So that's where I'm coming from.

That said, Booker is a rookie on a team that is playing out the string. His team is 3rd worst in the league and they've been much worse since he moved to the SL. He's scoring in copious amounts, but his TS% for February and March was 48% and 53%. It's 45% so far this month. He turned the ball over 4x per game in the month of March. He shot 28% from 3pt range. He averages around 0.5 steals p/36. And he's one of the 10 worst SGs in the league defensively.

He is also playing more minutes than basically any other player in the NBA.

Basically, he's the quintessential volume scorer putting up numbers on a terrible team. There is very little correlation with what he's doing now and winning basketball--which is the whole point of everything, really.

He was MUCH better in a more limited role early in the year. Playing off the ball and not forcing so many shots, spacing the floor and attacking closeouts off the dribble. That's his role and he's really good at it.


Lyles is providing punch to bench units for a Jazz team in desperate need of it as they make a run to the playoffs. A team that is 10-4 (4 losses are SA, GS, OKC and Chi) since the beginning of March with top 3 differential in the league. A team that just took San Antonio AND Golden State down to the last minute in the space of 7 days, and a team that has won crucial games against top competition.

Those are apples and oranges. And while numbers can be fun, it's ultimately about winning basketball games and Trey Lyles has been doing more to contribute to winning basketball games than Booker has by a large margin. In fact, there's only a couple other rooks who can compare to what he's doing right now in that respect.

Which is all not to say that Book isn't great, because he is. I think he's going to be good, but the excitement about him becoming a future star is premature. He could get there, but what he's doing right now is not an indicator of that.

Yup, you are right. Booker is a high volume scorer on a horrible team that continues to lose. Meanwhile, Lyles is a winner. I got it. You are 100 percent correct. I wished we had drafted Lyles then we would be winning way more games and have the franchise guy we have been looking for.

Haha, whatever man. Like I said, I'm a big fan of Booker. He's doing some strong work. Lyles isn't putting up the same raw numbers but he's making key contributions to a winning team, while Booker is putting up big scoring numbers on a bad team. Speaks for itself. I don't think either guy is likely to be a star, though both have a decent shot, but you gotta be some type of clown to think that what Booker is doing now will translate automatically to being "the guy" for a team. This is the oldest story in the Book (heh).

[E-Balla]

It took me five minutes last year to figure out Towns was a much better prospect than Okafor. I didn't understand the "dilemma". Then again, Chad Ford is an idiot, and many people are just repeating his bs.

it gets more confusing when Okafor plays against Towns or KP, or Cousins for that matter. inconsistent until he's actually motivated, and then his physicality, along with those incredible moves down low, suddenly remind folks what all the fuss was about before he landed on the tanking sixers. curious to see what happens when he plays on a decent roster that actually wants to compete.

Yep.

Vs Drummond: 17.5 ppg, 59.7 TS% (57.1 FG%), 26.9 MPG

Vs DeAndre: 18.5 ppg, 53.4 TS% (53.1 FG%), 23.9 MPG

Vs KAT: 17.5 ppg, 66.0 TS% (65.2 FG%), 26.8 MPG

Vs DMC: 18.0 ppg, 53.9 TS% (51.7 FG%), 29.3 MPG

Jahlil also averaged 23/9/2 per 36 on 59 TS% after the Ish Smith trade. Its not hard to see why a player that good was so highly touted especially if (like me) you saw Towns as more of a 13/9/2 guy as a rookie and 20/12/3 guy at his peak. I don't think anyone could say they knew KAT would be a 50% midrange shooter as a rookie so can we stop this hindsight crap?

[yitur]

It took me five minutes last year to figure out Towns was a much better prospect than Okafor. I didn't understand the "dilemma". Then again, Chad Ford is an idiot, and many people are just repeating his bs.

it gets more confusing when Okafor plays against Towns or KP, or Cousins for that matter. inconsistent until he's actually motivated, and then his physicality, along with those incredible moves down low, suddenly remind folks what all the fuss was about before he landed on the tanking sixers. curious to see what happens when he plays on a decent roster that actually wants to compete.

Yep.

Vs Drummond: 17.5 ppg, 59.7 TS% (57.1 FG%), 26.9 MPG

Vs DeAndre: 18.5 ppg, 53.4 TS% (53.1 FG%), 23.9 MPG

Vs KAT: 17.5 ppg, 66.0 TS% (65.2 FG%), 26.8 MPG

Vs DMC: 18.0 ppg, 53.9 TS% (51.7 FG%), 29.3 MPG

Jahlil also averaged 23/9/2 per 36 on 59 TS% after the Ish Smith trade. Its not hard to see why a player that good was so highly touted especially if (like me) you saw Towns as more of a 13/9/2 guy as a rookie and 20/12/3 guy at his peak. I don't think anyone could say they knew KAT would be a 50% midrange shooter as a rookie so can we stop this hindsight crap?

Towns was the better prospect but yeah no one could have thought he would be 20-10-2 guy per36 in his first year. Okafor will get much better though, when Sixers roster is finally built with some cohesion.

[EvanZ]

It took me five minutes last year to figure out Towns was a much better prospect than Okafor. I didn't understand the "dilemma". Then again, Chad Ford is an idiot, and many people are just repeating his bs.

it gets more confusing when Okafor plays against Towns or KP, or Cousins for that matter. inconsistent until he's actually motivated, and then his physicality, along with those incredible moves down low, suddenly remind folks what all the fuss was about before he landed on the tanking sixers. curious to see what happens when he plays on a decent roster that actually wants to compete.

Yep.

Vs Drummond: 17.5 ppg, 59.7 TS% (57.1 FG%), 26.9 MPG

Vs DeAndre: 18.5 ppg, 53.4 TS% (53.1 FG%), 23.9 MPG

Vs KAT: 17.5 ppg, 66.0 TS% (65.2 FG%), 26.8 MPG

Vs DMC: 18.0 ppg, 53.9 TS% (51.7 FG%), 29.3 MPG

Jahlil also averaged 23/9/2 per 36 on 59 TS% after the Ish Smith trade. Its not hard to see why a player that good was so highly touted especially if (like me) you saw Towns as more of a 13/9/2 guy as a rookie and 20/12/3 guy at his peak. I don't think anyone could say they knew KAT would be a 50% midrange shooter as a rookie so can we stop this hindsight crap?

Many of us saw that Okafor couldn't defend or play defense. So what exactly were *you* projecting?

Towns was already a beast on defense as a freshman and shot 81% from the line, almost unheard of for a big his size. It was a no-brainer, and it still is. Okafor will probably be the 5th or 6th best big from this draft after Towns, Jokic, Porzingis, and Turner.

[Marcus]

it gets more confusing when Okafor plays against Towns or KP, or Cousins for that matter. inconsistent until he's actually motivated, and then his physicality, along with those incredible moves down low, suddenly remind folks what all the fuss was about before he landed on the tanking sixers. curious to see what happens when he plays on a decent roster that actually wants to compete.

Yep.

Vs Drummond: 17.5 ppg, 59.7 TS% (57.1 FG%), 26.9 MPG

Vs DeAndre: 18.5 ppg, 53.4 TS% (53.1 FG%), 23.9 MPG

Vs KAT: 17.5 ppg, 66.0 TS% (65.2 FG%), 26.8 MPG

Vs DMC: 18.0 ppg, 53.9 TS% (51.7 FG%), 29.3 MPG

Jahlil also averaged 23/9/2 per 36 on 59 TS% after the Ish Smith trade. Its not hard to see why a player that good was so highly touted especially if (like me) you saw Towns as more of a 13/9/2 guy as a rookie and 20/12/3 guy at his peak. I don't think anyone could say they knew KAT would be a 50% midrange shooter as a rookie so can we stop this hindsight crap?

Many of us saw that Okafor couldn't defend or play defense. So what exactly were *you* projecting?

Towns was already a beast on defense as a freshman and shot 81% from the line, almost unheard of for a big his size. It was a no-brainer, and it still is. Okafor will probably be the 5th or 6th best big from this draft after Towns, Jokic, Porzingis, and Turner.

Jokic was 2nd round draft and stash in 2014.

[E-Balla]

it gets more confusing when Okafor plays against Towns or KP, or Cousins for that matter. inconsistent until he's actually motivated, and then his physicality, along with those incredible moves down low, suddenly remind folks what all the fuss was about before he landed on the tanking sixers. curious to see what happens when he plays on a decent roster that actually wants to compete.

Yep.

Vs Drummond: 17.5 ppg, 59.7 TS% (57.1 FG%), 26.9 MPG

Vs DeAndre: 18.5 ppg, 53.4 TS% (53.1 FG%), 23.9 MPG

Vs KAT: 17.5 ppg, 66.0 TS% (65.2 FG%), 26.8 MPG

Vs DMC: 18.0 ppg, 53.9 TS% (51.7 FG%), 29.3 MPG

Jahlil also averaged 23/9/2 per 36 on 59 TS% after the Ish Smith trade. Its not hard to see why a player that good was so highly touted especially if (like me) you saw Towns as more of a 13/9/2 guy as a rookie and 20/12/3 guy at his peak. I don't think anyone could say they knew KAT would be a 50% midrange shooter as a rookie so can we stop this hindsight crap?

Many of us saw that Okafor couldn't defend or play defense. So what exactly were *you* projecting?

Towns was already a beast on defense as a freshman and shot 81% from the line, almost unheard of for a big his size. It was a no-brainer, and it still is. Okafor will probably be the 5th or 6th best big from this draft after Towns, Jokic, Porzingis, and Turner.

So because he's not a great defender we are ignoring what he can do? Ok...

And Jokic isn't even from this draft. Its cool to have your opinion and all but dismissing a prospect as good as Okafor is foolish.

[islanders11040]

ESPN: Top 10 rookies by Future Potential (Chad Ford and Kevin Pelton)

Chad Ford:
1) Towns
2) Porzingis
3) Jokic
4) Mudiay
5) Turner
6) Russell
7) Booker
8) Winslow
9) Okafor
10) Lyles

Pelton:
1) Towns
2) Jokic
3) Porzingis
4) Russell
5) Booker
6) Turner
7) Winslow
8) Okafor
9) Mudiay
10) Hollis-Jefferson

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15144855/ranking-karl-anthony-towns-kristaps-porzingis-2015-16-rookies-future-potential-nba

[Kabookalu]

ESPN: Top 10 rookies by Future Potential (Chad Ford and Kevin Pelton)

Chad Ford:
1) Towns
2) Porzingis
3) Jokic
4) Mudiay
5) Turner
6) Russell
7) Booker
8) Winslow
9) Okafor
10) Lyles

Pelton:
1) Towns
2) Jokic
3) Porzingis
4) Russell
5) Booker
6) Turner
7) Winslow
8) Okafor
9) Mudiay
10) Hollis-Jefferson

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15144855/ranking-karl-anthony-towns-kristaps-porzingis-2015-16-rookies-future-potential-nba

Dang they're really down on Okafor and super high on Jokic. Not a huge Okafor fan but I'm interested to see how his development goes on an organization that isn't looking to throw away games anymore.

[Domejandro]

Jahlil Okafor is not nearly as bad defensively as people suggest, the dislike towards him is absurd.

[EvanZ]

So because he's not a great defender we are ignoring what he can do? Ok...

Uh, I'm not ignoring what he can do, I'm paying attention to what he can't do.

Try it sometime.

[E-Balla]

So because he's not a great defender we are ignoring what he can do? Ok...

Uh, I'm not ignoring what he can do, I'm paying attention to what he can't do.

Try it sometime.

I know what he can't do but again he's a rookie. He's at least not bad defending the rim - you can cover for the rest. Outside of that though you have one of the most talented scorers ever (not saying he'll make use of his talent but its definitely there) and you're acting like he's not good because he's not a great defender. Shaq was a beast in his early LA years and he didn't know what defense was at all. Same with Amare.

[Revived]

Booker going off against one of the better defenses in the league

[Revived]

Those are apples and oranges. And while numbers can be fun, it's ultimately about winning basketball games and Trey Lyles has been doing more to contribute to winning basketball games than Booker has by a large margin. In fact, there's only a couple other rooks who can compare to what he's doing right now in that respect.

Which is all not to say that Book isn't great, because he is. I think he's going to be good, but the excitement about him becoming a future star is premature. He could get there, but what he's doing right now is not an indicator of that.

So by that same logic, would you take Lyles over Towns as well? You said Booker's team is 3rd worst in the league, well Towns team is 5th worst in the league. So then he isn't playing "winning basketball" either right? And nothing that Towns has done this season is an indicator of him being a star either right since you know, his team is also very bad?

[cyclix]

ESPN: Top 10 rookies by Future Potential (Chad Ford and Kevin Pelton)

Chad Ford:
1) Towns
2) Porzingis
3) Jokic
4) Mudiay
5) Turner
6) Russell
7) Booker
8) Winslow
9) Okafor
10) Lyles

Pelton:
1) Towns
2) Jokic
3) Porzingis
4) Russell
5) Booker
6) Turner
7) Winslow
8) Okafor
9) Mudiay
10) Hollis-Jefferson

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15144855/ranking-karl-anthony-towns-kristaps-porzingis-2015-16-rookies-future-potential-nba

No Hezonja? BLASPHEMOUS!

[E-Balla]

ESPN: Top 10 rookies by Future Potential (Chad Ford and Kevin Pelton)

Chad Ford:
1) Towns
2) Porzingis
3) Jokic
4) Mudiay
5) Turner
6) Russell
7) Booker
8) Winslow
9) Okafor
10) Lyles

Pelton:
1) Towns
2) Jokic
3) Porzingis
4) Russell
5) Booker
6) Turner
7) Winslow
8) Okafor
9) Mudiay
10) Hollis-Jefferson

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15144855/ranking-karl-anthony-towns-kristaps-porzingis-2015-16-rookies-future-potential-nba

Terrible lists...

[Riko]

ESPN: Top 10 rookies by Future Potential (Chad Ford and Kevin Pelton)

Chad Ford:
1) Towns
2) Porzingis
3) Jokic
4) Mudiay
5) Turner
6) Russell
7) Booker
8) Winslow
9) Okafor
10) Lyles

Pelton:
1) Towns
2) Jokic
3) Porzingis
4) Russell
5) Booker
6) Turner
7) Winslow
8) Okafor
9) Mudiay
10) Hollis-Jefferson

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15144855/ranking-karl-anthony-towns-kristaps-porzingis-2015-16-rookies-future-potential-nba

Put Stanley Johnson on number 7 (Winslow 8, Mudiay 9 and Okafor 10) and I agree with the second list.
So much talented rookies, a list of ten players isn't enough.

[EvanZ]

So because he's not a great defender we are ignoring what he can do? Ok...

Uh, I'm not ignoring what he can do, I'm paying attention to what he can't do.

Try it sometime.

I know what he can't do but again he's a rookie. He's at least not bad defending the rim - you can cover for the rest. Outside of that though you have one of the most talented scorers ever (not saying he'll make use of his talent but its definitely there) and you're acting like he's not good because he's not a great defender. Shaq was a beast in his early LA years and he didn't know what defense was at all. Same with Amare.

Disregarding for the moment your take on those two players (which I'd disagree with), it's completely irrelevant. I can name HOFers til I'm blue in the face, that doesn't mean Player X (Okafor in this scenario) automatically improves because I name dropped.

The fact is Okafor was known to be a terrible defender in college, and he's even worse than expected. And for all his "scoring talent", he can't shoot worth ****. And he's slow as **** in an NBA that is faster paced than ever.

Get over it. And stop committing the fallacy of false analogy. "Kobe Bryant is a Hall of Famer, therefore Harrison Barnes will be!"

[E-Balla]

Uh, I'm not ignoring what he can do, I'm paying attention to what he can't do.

Try it sometime.

I know what he can't do but again he's a rookie. He's at least not bad defending the rim - you can cover for the rest. Outside of that though you have one of the most talented scorers ever (not saying he'll make use of his talent but its definitely there) and you're acting like he's not good because he's not a great defender. Shaq was a beast in his early LA years and he didn't know what defense was at all. Same with Amare.

Disregarding for the moment your take on those two players (which I'd disagree with), it's completely irrelevant. I can name HOFers til I'm blue in the face, that doesn't mean Player X (Okafor in this scenario) automatically improves because I name dropped.

The fact is Okafor was known to be a terrible defender in college, and he's even worse than expected. And for all his "scoring talent", he can't shoot worth ****. And he's slow as **** in an NBA that is faster paced than ever.

Get over it. And stop committing the fallacy of false analogy. "Kobe Bryant is a Hall of Famer, therefore Harrison Barnes will be!"

When your only reason for saying he's not good is that his defense is bad it does make sense for me to bring up guys at his position that were great without being decent defenders.

And his defense is worse than expected how? If anything its a positive he's not as bad a rim defender as most people thought he was (personally I knew he was an average rim defender).

Also he can't shoot now? Watch a game or at least look at a shot chart. He's a 20 year old C shooting 69% on freethrows, 38% on jumpshots, 33% from 10+ feet out, and 38% from 10 feet out after they traded for Ish. DeMarcus at his age had more range but was less efficient on jumpers. Amare at Jahlil's age was a way worse shooter. Blake was a worse shooter too (had range though). Jahlil is a highly skilled offensive big man who showed a massive improvement in his shooting this year - I have no reason to believe he can't continue to improve. Also calling him slow? I don't think you've watched him play at all this year if you believe any of this crap. Sounds like stuff you read in old scouting reports.