Tatum VS Luka

[1st banana]

Mate, you need to understand something. Doncic (when it comes to 1v1 matchups) was 2nd best Mavs defender with 2nd most directly contested shots and 2nd best DFG%. Luka averages more contested shots per game than Tatum. Nr1 successful 1v1 defender vs GSW was DFS for Mavs. The only reason those overall numbers look THAT bad to you, is because of Looney.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND how terrible Mavs were as A UNIT in that series on defense? They made Looney look like an all star because their 2 centers couldn't provide any help with either rebounding or rim protection. You're basically saying that Iverson was the reason Philly lost the finals because he couldn't guard Shaq.

This is what Tatum did. (From my earlier post). Tatum did good on defense, but he did limited damage. He had insane amount of help from other help defenders.

35.8% of those partial possessions was him guarding Draymond Green who was 1/3 and 16% was vs Klay who was 1/4. The next guy was Steph, Tatum guarded him 15% of time and was 1/2.

Tatum defense resulted in players shooting 3/10 vs him but he also contested only 6 shots and had 0 box outs. So 4 of those 3/10 was basically misses with Tatum being as the closest defender.

He had 3 deflections but still wasn't teams highest. Smart, Horford, Williams by all statistical measures did a better job on defense than Tatum and spent more time guarding GSW best players. There is even a great argument that Derrick White was better than Tatum on defense. Him guarding Steph forced Steph to shoot 2/6 directly vs him.

I’m sorry did you just compare kevon looney to shaq? lol

Lol, no? If a PG needed to defend a C scenario.

You didn't name a single player that played hero ball, was a defensive liability, and won a championship. Dirk and Curry play off the ball, Dirk far more than Curry.

It's so frustrating having any reasonable discussions with you... Let me ask you this, how many Mavs games did you even watch in the past 4 years, or... this season?

Mavs constructed the team as it is. How differently can they play if people keep telling you that Brunson and Dinwiddie play exactly the same as Doncic. But the difference is their production doesn't even come close to his.

Kevon looney is 1 inch taller and like 10 lbs heavier stop acting like that’s this colossal mismatch Luka just ignored him.

[SelfishPlayer]

Mate, you need to understand something. Doncic (when it comes to 1v1 matchups) was 2nd best Mavs defender with 2nd most directly contested shots and 2nd best DFG%. Luka averages more contested shots per game than Tatum. Nr1 successful 1v1 defender vs GSW was DFS for Mavs. The only reason those overall numbers look THAT bad to you, is because of Looney.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND how terrible Mavs were as A UNIT in that series on defense? They made Looney look like an all star because their 2 centers couldn't provide any help with either rebounding or rim protection. You're basically saying that Iverson was the reason Philly lost the finals because he couldn't guard Shaq.

This is what Tatum did. (From my earlier post). Tatum did good on defense, but he did limited damage. He had insane amount of help from other help defenders.

35.8% of those partial possessions was him guarding Draymond Green who was 1/3 and 16% was vs Klay who was 1/4. The next guy was Steph, Tatum guarded him 15% of time and was 1/2.

Tatum defense resulted in players shooting 3/10 vs him but he also contested only 6 shots and had 0 box outs. So 4 of those 3/10 was basically misses with Tatum being as the closest defender.

He had 3 deflections but still wasn't teams highest. Smart, Horford, Williams by all statistical measures did a better job on defense than Tatum and spent more time guarding GSW best players. There is even a great argument that Derrick White was better than Tatum on defense. Him guarding Steph forced Steph to shoot 2/6 directly vs him.

I’m sorry did you just compare kevon looney to shaq? lol

Lol, no? If a PG needed to defend a C scenario.

You didn't name a single player that played hero ball, was a defensive liability, and won a championship. Dirk and Curry play off the ball, Dirk far more than Curry.

It's so frustrating having any reasonable discussions with you... Let me ask you this, how many Mavs games did you even watch in the past 4 years, or... this season?

Mavs constructed the team as it is. How differently can they play if people keep telling you that Brunson and Dinwiddie play exactly the same as Doncic. But the difference is their production doesn't even come close to his.

How do they play the same as Luka when their usage is 22 and 21 while Luka's usage is 37?

[Bob8]

Btw both Luka being a better player and not playing a winning style of basketball can be true.

It was winning style of basketball against far the best team in RS.

[Swish1906]

Btw both Luka being a better player and not playing a winning style of basketball can be true.

Weirdly Luka has allready a gazillion more championship trophies.

Yeah, playing a team ball. Weirdly.

Yeah, as best player and playmaker. Weirdly.

But i know your nick and what you do in every luka topic, so im wasting my time here

[sunsbg]

Btw both Luka being a better player and not playing a winning style of basketball can be true.

It was winning style of basketball against far the best team in RS.

You mean the collapse of 37yo CP Suns, who would have done the same Warriors did, but luckily for Mavs, CP3's birthday was not a week later ?

Jk, props to Mavs, but reading how they lost to Warriors because they forgot how to play D is funny. Sounds more like Suns became overconfident, had internal issues than Mavs great D in case they were not able to do the same against Ws.

[nikster]

I’m sorry did you just compare kevon looney to shaq? lol

Lol, no? If a PG needed to defend a C scenario.

You didn't name a single player that played hero ball, was a defensive liability, and won a championship. Dirk and Curry play off the ball, Dirk far more than Curry.

It's so frustrating having any reasonable discussions with you... Let me ask you this, how many Mavs games did you even watch in the past 4 years, or... this season?

Mavs constructed the team as it is. How differently can they play if people keep telling you that Brunson and Dinwiddie play exactly the same as Doncic. But the difference is their production doesn't even come close to his.

How do they play the same as Luka when their usage is 22 and 21 while Luka's usage is 37?

Because when Luka is off the floor their usage sky rockets,

It's obvious if you look at the stats (which I've shared with you previously) or watch the games. Clearly your interested in neither and prefer to bash Luka from a place of ignorance

[sunsbg]

Weirdly Luka has allready a gazillion more championship trophies.

Yeah, playing a team ball. Weirdly.

Yeah, as best player and playmaker. Weirdly.

But i know your nick and what you do in every luka topic, so im wasting my time here

Would I waste your time to remind you Dragic was the best player in EU championship win and Real Madrid play team ball ?

As I said Luka is better than Tatum, but he'll win a championship when he averages more than 7apg and 2 A/TO ratio. May require a better team, I agree.

[SelfishPlayer]

:roll:

Lol, no? If a PG needed to defend a C scenario.





It's so frustrating having any reasonable discussions with you... Let me ask you this, how many Mavs games did you even watch in the past 4 years, or... this season?

Mavs constructed the team as it is. How differently can they play if people keep telling you that Brunson and Dinwiddie play exactly the same as Doncic. But the difference is their production doesn't even come close to his.

How do they play the same as Luka when their usage is 22 and 21 while Luka's usage is 37?

Because when Luka is off the floor their usage sky rockets,

It's obvious if you look at the stats (which I've shared with you previously) or watch the games. Clearly your interested in neither and prefer to bash Luka from a place of ignorance

Luka has poor on/off statistics that isn't a revelation. The Mavs won playoff games without Luka.

[Archx]

Kevon looney is 1 inch taller and like 10 lbs heavier stop acting like that’s this colossal mismatch Luka just ignored him.

So he's taller, stronger, longer hands and Luka just ignored him. Ok then.

How do they play the same as Luka when their usage is 22 and 21 while Luka's usage is 37?

In games that he didn't play. Their USG% was Spencer 35%, Brunson 34%.. 2nd game 30% and 35%, 3rd 29% and 34%. That's quite comparable to Luka.

In these games that Mavs won without Doncic, Brunson managed to abuse Jazz perimeter defenders and Maxi shot 14/21 from 3. (67%) Unfortunately he didn't repeat that vs GSW.

Jazz didn't make ANY adjustments to guarding Brunson and didn't even double team him. Luka is the most double teamed player in the league.

Jk, props to Mavs, but reading how they lost to Warriors because they forgot how to play D is funny. Sounds more like Suns became overconfident, had internal issues than Mavs great D in case they were not able to do the same against Ws.

This is a great breakdown how Mavs won. And also Bridges was recently on Redicks podcast and he talked about that 7 game. Suns simply underrated Mavs and they got burned.

Watch on YouTube

[3toheadmelo]

Kevon looney is 1 inch taller and like 10 lbs heavier stop acting like that’s this colossal mismatch Luka just ignored him.

So he's taller, stronger, longer hands and Luka just ignored him. Ok then.

How do they play the same as Luka when their usage is 22 and 21 while Luka's usage is 37?

In games that he didn't play. Their USG% was Spencer 35%, Brunson 34%.. 2nd game 30% and 35%, 3rd 29% and 34%. That's quite comparable to Luka.

In these games that Mavs won without Doncic, Brunson managed to abuse Jazz perimeter defenders and Maxi shot 14/21 from 3. (67%) Unfortunately he didn't repeat that vs GSW.

Jazz didn't make ANY adjustments to guarding Brunson and didn't even double team him. Luka is the most double teamed player in the league.

Where do you see that Luka is the most double teamed player in the league? According to NBA.com Luka only had 31.7% of his possessions in double teams (Pretty low compared to guys like Embiid who had 46.3%% of his posessions in double teams, Harden with 43.8%, Booker 40.2%, etc ) and only faced 17.7 double teams per game in the post season which ranks him below guys like Siakam, Harden, Ja, Derozan, Ingram, Giannis, etc.

[SelfishPlayer]

Kevon looney is 1 inch taller and like 10 lbs heavier stop acting like that’s this colossal mismatch Luka just ignored him.

So he's taller, stronger, longer hands and Luka just ignored him. Ok then.

How do they play the same as Luka when their usage is 22 and 21 while Luka's usage is 37?

In games that he didn't play. Their USG% was Spencer 35%, Brunson 34%.. 2nd game 30% and 35%, 3rd 29% and 34%. That's quite comparable to Luka.

In these games that Mavs won without Doncic, Brunson managed to abuse Jazz perimeter defenders and Maxi shot 14/21 from 3. (67%) Unfortunately he didn't repeat that vs GSW.

Jazz didn't make ANY adjustments to guarding Brunson and didn't even double team him. Luka is the most double teamed player in the league.

Brunson and Dinwiddie had similar usage rates to each other in the playoff games that Luka missed. Luka in his return had a game with a 45.4 usage rate in Luka Ball style hero fashion. Ultimately that style of basketball where you are a target defensively and a ball hog on offense has never won an NBA championship and got the Mavs knocked out of the playoffs.

[Archx]

Where do you see that Luka is the most double teamed player in the league? According to NBA.com Luka only had 31.7% of his possessions in double teams (Pretty low compared to guys like Embiid who had 46.3%% of his posessions in double teams, Harden with 43.8%, Booker 40.2%, etc ) and only faced 17.7 double teams per game in the post season which ranks him below guys like Siakam, Harden, Ja, Derozan, Ingram, Giannis, etc.

Your data is for playoffs though.

It was a graphic made during or after regular season, can't honestly remember. There is a link somewhere on the forums but i probably won't be able to find it. It could be that it was slightly outdated, but my point still stands he was among the top double teamed guys and i made a reference to Jazz who didn't adjust even a single bit on Brunson.

Ultimately that style of basketball where you are a target defensively and a ball hog on offense has never won an NBA championship and got the Mavs knocked out of the playoffs.

Or maybe because GSW are really, really good? Just like the Celtics. Both teams deserve to be in the finals.

[CobraCommander]

If Tatum wins a ring then Tatum will be rightfully regarded as the better of the two for now


and if Tatum is the FMVP, I think the debate is over until Luka does something beyond replicating what he has done over the last few years.

Being a great player on a good team can’t be considered higher than being the best player on the championship team.

Is that something we can all agree on? Winning a ring is the MOST important judge of an NBA player....

When comparing players that are close in talent- the one with the most rings is the winner...right...?

The best player on a team that wins a ring gets a ranking boost automatically

[3toheadmelo]

Where do you see that Luka is the most double teamed player in the league? According to NBA.com Luka only had 31.7% of his possessions in double teams (Pretty low compared to guys like Embiid who had 46.3%% of his posessions in double teams, Harden with 43.8%, Booker 40.2%, etc ) and only faced 17.7 double teams per game in the post season which ranks him below guys like Siakam, Harden, Ja, Derozan, Ingram, Giannis, etc.

Your data is for playoffs though.

It was a graphic made during or after regular season, can't honestly remember. There is a link somewhere on the forums but i probably won't be able to find it. It could be that it was slightly outdated, but my point still stands he was among the top double teamed guys and i made a reference to Jazz who didn't adjust even a single bit on Brunson.

Ultimately that style of basketball where you are a target defensively and a ball hog on offense has never won an NBA championship and got the Mavs knocked out of the playoffs.

Or maybe because GSW are really, really good? Just like the Celtics. Both teams deserve to be in the finals.

I wasn't sure if you meant playoffs so thats why I said that

[sunsbg]

Jk, props to Mavs, but reading how they lost to Warriors because they forgot how to play D is funny. Sounds more like Suns became overconfident, had internal issues than Mavs great D in case they were not able to do the same against Ws.

This is a great breakdown how Mavs won. And also Bridges was recently on Redicks podcast and he talked about that 7 game. Suns simply underrated Mavs and they got burned.

The video says Luka dominated the Suns in the title, but he did it in Gm1 and still lost. Suns becoming overconfident they will beat the Mavs even if Luka scores 45 seems the main reason they lost to me. In the end they didn't stop him with double teams, neither did they stop the role players from hitting 3s, they didn't use their advantage in the post. On top of that CP3 fell off a cliff, which is not that surprising. I'm not sure Luka will be in the league at 37 if he doesn't take better care of his body. All in all, complete failure on both ends, especially in Gm7, which had only partially anything to do with Luka's play.

[nikster]

Kevon looney is 1 inch taller and like 10 lbs heavier stop acting like that’s this colossal mismatch Luka just ignored him.

So he's taller, stronger, longer hands and Luka just ignored him. Ok then.

How do they play the same as Luka when their usage is 22 and 21 while Luka's usage is 37?

In games that he didn't play. Their USG% was Spencer 35%, Brunson 34%.. 2nd game 30% and 35%, 3rd 29% and 34%. That's quite comparable to Luka.

In these games that Mavs won without Doncic, Brunson managed to abuse Jazz perimeter defenders and Maxi shot 14/21 from 3. (67%) Unfortunately he didn't repeat that vs GSW.

Jazz didn't make ANY adjustments to guarding Brunson and didn't even double team him. Luka is the most double teamed player in the league.

Brunson and Dinwiddie had similar usage rates to each other in the playoff games that Luka missed. Luka in his return had a game with a 45.4 usage rate in Luka Ball style hero fashion. Ultimately that style of basketball where you are a target defensively and a ball hog on offense has never won an NBA championship and got the Mavs knocked out of the playoffs.

Yeesh they took turns ball hogging it. Their time of possession in the games Luka missed is similar to that of Trae young, which is insane for those caliber of role players. If you can't see Dinwiddie/Brunson play a iso heavy ball dominant game I don't know what your watching.

Not every loss is an inducement of a player or offensive system. Warriors are a lot more talented team, Lukas ball dominant game is what gave the Mavs a chance.

[User_friendly]

Btw both Luka being a better player and not playing a winning style of basketball can be true.

It was winning style of basketball against far the best team in RS.

And in the RS, it was winning style of basketball against a team which could be the champion, and which had Tatum, BTW.

[Bob8]

Btw both Luka being a better player and not playing a winning style of basketball can be true.

It was winning style of basketball against far the best team in RS.

You mean the collapse of 37yo CP Suns, who would have done the same Warriors did, but luckily for Mavs, CP3's birthday was not a week later ?

Jk, props to Mavs, but reading how they lost to Warriors because they forgot how to play D is funny. Sounds more like Suns became overconfident, had internal issues than Mavs great D in case they were not able to do the same against Ws.

I believe saying that 23 years old player, whose team had 52 wins in RS and played in WCF, isn't playing winning basketball, doesn't express reality. They were top 4 team in Nba, they for sure played winning basketball. To win it all you need to have team good enough and not only playing winning basketball. Mavs haven't that team yet, Celtics have, what was crystal clear in game 1, when multiple players step up and saved the day for Tatum.

[CoP]

I have already answered to you. 13 assists is great, but number is inflated by incredible shooting of role players. Boston is playing great D, but again, Tatum has a lot help there too. Smart is DPOY, Williams great rim protector, Brown incredibly physically gifted defender... Is not like Tatum is Alpha and Omega there.

On the other hand 12 points with 3/17 shooting is disastrous. Star player not scoring in last 16 minutes of the game is something rarely to be seen and should be criticised. Luka was 28/9/6; 10/28. And we all agreed, Luka and Kidd included , that it was bad game for him. Yes Celtics has won the game, but not because of Tatum, who was mostly invisible in Q4, but because of Brown and some other Celtics players going nuclear in Q4.

So then your answer is basically yes. You think Tatum had a bad game because of his 3/17 shooting line, and anything he did well otherwise (a lot of assists and few turnovers vs. double teams + very good defending) don't really matter because you don't want them to matter.

When you say that the Celtics won the game, but not because of Tatum, it shows how you view the game of basketball, through the lens of specific aspects of individual players' performances. That's really simplistic analysis. The Celtics won because Horford, White and Smart shot so well, in addition to Tatum hardly turning it over and finding open shots for his teammates despite being doubled on nearly every possession, in addition to the entire team bearing down and playing great defense in the last quarter, in addition to Udoka calling smart timeouts in the 4th when up in order to set up easy looks for the team, in addition to several other factors.

Tatum really hurt the team's chance to win with his poor shooting. But he helped the team's chance to win with his ability to handle double teams without turning it over, finding the open man for open or wide open shots, and playing great defense. Because his shooting was so incredibly bad, it all kind of balanced out, and he had, in my opinion, an OK game. White, Smart and Horford all had better games than he did.

I will say this, Tatum's Game 1 vs. the Warriors in the Finals was no worse than Luka's Game 1 vs. the Warriors in the WCF, when he went 6/18 shooting with 7 turnovers. And yet this thread was bumped after Game 1 of the Finals as a knock against Tatum, but not after Game 1 of the WCF as a knock against Luka. Why? Because of Luka fans and their double standards.

I totally agree that Luka had disastrous game 1 and I said he had bad game 5. The difference is that nobody defended, at least I don't know about it, those 2 bad games.

Standard for superstars are a bit different than normal players. I don't believe that Tatum being 5 best Celtics player is enough.

I said that Tatum didn't help much to win the game because he was almost invisible, 1 assists and 3 missed shots, in first 7 minutes of Q4, when the game was turned around.

I think that's fair to an extent, but also think that you're artificially shrinking the sample size in order to argue your point. First 7 minutes? He also had a few key assists and rebounds in the last 5 minutes when the game was still close or within reach. Those matter too. That said, while I think that Tatum had an OK game overall, it was definitely other players that led the turnaround in the 4th. Mainly Brown.

[DroseReturnChi]

If Tatum wins a ring then Tatum will be rightfully regarded as the better of the two for now


and if Tatum is the FMVP, I think the debate is over until Luka does something beyond replicating what he has done over the last few years.

Being a great player on a good team can’t be considered higher than being the best player on the championship team.

Is that something we can all agree on? Winning a ring is the MOST important judge of an NBA player....

When comparing players that are close in talent- the one with the most rings is the winner...right...?

The best player on a team that wins a ring gets a ranking boost automatically

no winning a ring doesnt prove anything unless ur the go to guy. there are far more players deserving than tatums fmvp in his own team this celtics team is identical to old gs iguodala is horford.
if tatum wins it will be bc of his selfishness and insane volume not bc he is the best player of the series. just look at him hoisting 17 shots despite making 10%. smart needs to denounce and shame him.