RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[NZB2323]

Dude is obviously biased, but I don’t think it’s as ridiculous of a claim as others will say it is.

It's baseless and absolutely absurd at this point in time. You have to leapfrog 10-20 absolute legends to even get to this discussion, and at which point there is no discussion to be had

If we’re talking about NBA resumes, he’s not top 10. If we’re talking about all the things he can do on the basketball court, he’s up there.

It kind of reminds me of an article in 1986 saying that Bird was the GOAT. Obviously Bird didn’t have the best NBA resume during his 7th season, but he was able to do things on the court that we hadn’t seen before.

[MiltownMadness]

And while we're here, the 2nd best player ever while fully healthy never goes out like that in the playoffs like he did vs. Minny a few months ago, while in his age 28 season at that.

34Pts 19Reb 7Ast?

Sorry but if you want to be the best player ever you can't lose that series. Excuses aren't made when you're talking that high of a level

[falcolombardi]

Definitely not there yet, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could get there by the end of his career.

.

I find it extremely unlikely as i am not even sure he has the best prime of his generation (giannis)

[iggymcfrack]

Definitely not there yet, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could get there by the end of his career.

What does he have to do to be considered better than Tim Duncan?

Probably maintain his current career arc on an individual level with two more rings or one more and excellent longevity? Like right now I have Duncan #4 all-time and KG #6 even though I think KG was probably more impressive on an individual level because I can’t quite get past the rings thing. I feel like Jokic is on a similar start to KG for his career in terms of individual impact, although the 2023 ring was a very impressive team accomplishment that might put him on a slightly better pace.

[CodeBreaker]

And while we're here, the 2nd best player ever while fully healthy never goes out like that in the playoffs like he did vs. Minny a few months ago, while in his age 28 season at that.

34Pts 19Reb 7Ast?

Sorry but if you want to be the best player ever you can't lose that series. Excuses aren't made when you're talking that high of a level

I'm not making excuses for him but Jordan and LeBron lost series in their prime, yet we all talk highly of them

[NZB2323]

And while we're here, the 2nd best player ever while fully healthy never goes out like that in the playoffs like he did vs. Minny a few months ago, while in his age 28 season at that.

34Pts 19Reb 7Ast?

Sorry but if you want to be the best player ever you can't lose that series. Excuses aren't made when you're talking that high of a level

Yes, great players have never lost in the playoffs, especially to teams that are top 3 in point differential!

The 2024 Timberwolves had a better Net Rtg than the 2011 Mavs and 1990 Detroit Pistons.

[iggymcfrack]

Definitely not there yet, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could get there by the end of his career.

.

I find it extremely unlikely as i am not even sure he has the best prime of his generation (giannis)

Let’s be generous and call 2023 Jokic and 2021 Giannis a push. (Edge to Jokic IMO especially since Giannis missed Games 5 and 6 of the conference finals hurt.) Where else’s does Giannis have an edge? 2020 he won MVP, but got down 3-0 to an inferior team and then got hurt. 2022 he was healthy and played well, but got arguably outplayed by Tatum in the second round. 2019 he got sonned by Kawhi. Then 2023 and 2024 he got his team eliminated with playoff injuries both years.

Meanwhile, Jokic was impeccable in 2021, 2023, and 2024. Fanatadtic regular season, fantastic postseason, no injuries.

I’d say:


2023 Jokic > 2021 Giannis > 2024 Jokic > 2022 Jokic > 2021 Jokic > 2022 Giannis > 2020 Giannis if we’re looking at top seasons between them.

[Jasen777]

No, but I have him as 3rd best post merger prime.

[zimpy27]

Definitely not there yet, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could get there by the end of his career.

What does he have to do to be considered better than Tim Duncan?

Probably maintain his current career arc on an individual level with two more rings or one more and excellent longevity? Like right now I have Duncan #4 all-time and KG #6 even though I think KG was probably more impressive on an individual level because I can’t quite get past the rings thing. I feel like Jokic is on a similar start to KG for his career in terms of individual impact, although the 2023 ring was a very impressive team accomplishment that might put him on a slightly better pace.

You think Duncan gets passed up from a guy with 2 rings?

That would be an interesting discussion.

I'm high on Jokic but I find it difficult to rate him that high yet. Though he does have 3 MVPs

[MiltownMadness]

34Pts 19Reb 7Ast?

Sorry but if you want to be the best player ever you can't lose that series. Excuses aren't made when you're talking that high of a level

Yes, great players have never lost in the playoffs, especially to teams that are top 3 in point differential!

The 2024 Timberwolves had a better Net Rtg than the 2011 Mavs and 1990 Detroit Pistons.

He was up 3-2 against a team lead by 22 year old Anthony Edwards and couldn't get the job done, it's a blemish. Not like a 2nd best player of all time claim should be taken seriously in the 1st place. I don't think you realize how dominant a player like that is

[SelfishPlayer]

He's not a GOAT level player when his three point shot isn't falling. Last season, the playoffs, and the Olympics his three point shot wasn't good enough. You add that in with him never averaging a full block per game in his career and he can't be in GOAT conversation.

[falcolombardi]

Definitely not there yet, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could get there by the end of his career.

.

I find it extremely unlikely as i am not even sure he has the best prime of his generation (giannis)

Let’s be generous and call 2023 Jokic and 2021 Giannis a push. (Edge to Jokic IMO especially since Giannis missed Games 5 and 6 of the conference finals hurt.) Where else’s does Giannis have an edge? 2020 he won MVP, but got down 3-0 to an inferior team and then got hurt. 2022 he was healthy and played well, but got arguably outplayed by Tatum in the second round. 2019 he got sonned by Kawhi. Then 2023 and 2024 he got his team eliminated with playoff injuries both years.

Meanwhile, Jokic was impeccable in 2021, 2023, and 2024. Fanatadtic regular season, fantastic postseason, no injuries.

I’d say:


2023 Jokic > 2021 Giannis > 2024 Jokic > 2022 Jokic > 2021 Jokic > 2022 Giannis > 2020 Giannis if we’re looking at top seasons between them.

Tatum> giannis in 2022 is a huge stretch imo, kinda carried by 1 admittedly incredible game in 7

2023 jokic for how good he was didnt beat any team as good as 2021 suns or had, if we weight single peak games disproportionately, anythingh as good as giannis finals game 6

2019 giannis was flawed but to throw it all away because of his scoring struggles against an all time tier defensive cast would be way too harsh unless wr put on similar stipulations about how suns and warriors exploited jokic in 21 and 22 defensively while decently limiting his offense (or, for that matter how 20 lakers could slow him down)

I dont have any issue with jokic>giannis. Specially accounting for health in the playoffs but i think jokic is starting to go a bit underscrutinized as long as he fills the boxscore

In 2024 for example if giannis filled the scoring and assists but his team offense died as much as denver's did he wouldnt get the benefit of jamal murray taking the blame

Jokic imo has one issue where as good of a scorer/passer as he is. He can be isolated from the rest of his team due to not being a full time ball handler if that makes sense.

[DaPessimist]

You have to prove it.

Personally, I don't see Jokic winning another title on this Nuggets team. By the time his Nuggets contract is up, he'll be 33 years old.

[bledredwine]

Dude is obviously biased, but I don’t think it’s as ridiculous of a claim as others will say it is.

It's baseless and absolutely absurd at this point in time. You have to leapfrog 10-20 absolute legends to even get to this discussion, and at which point there is no discussion to be had

If we’re talking about NBA resumes, he’s not top 10. If we’re talking about all the things he can do on the basketball court, he’s up there.

It kind of reminds me of an article in 1986 saying that Bird was the GOAT. Obviously Bird didn’t have the best NBA resume during his 7th season, but he was able to do things on the court that we hadn’t seen before.

I actually understand and agree with your take.
It’s really hard to say, but if you see a truly special/amazing player, you can say things like this. Bobby Knight called MJ the best player he’d ever seen before he entered the league.
The ring counting narrative only started with this recent generation as a sure fire, even materialistic way to catch GOAT status, but you can often see how dominant or special a player is right away. Those championships happen organically as a desire to win.
Prime Bird was a bit like a video game cheat code. Jokic has aspects of that as well.

[EmpireFalls]

I think Jokic is clearly the best European player ever at the very least, my apologies to Dirk, but he wasn’t like this.

[bledredwine]

For the record, despite my understanding of why he’d say that about Jokic, Kareem still has more mastery and control over the game than any player I’ve seen not named Jordan. I can’t put anyone else ahead of him.

Jokic has that same sort of quality about him though… but not as dominantly or consistently as Kareem IMO

Actually, that’s one thing I really have seen to the extent of Jordan or Kareem, is that complete control of the game. I wonder how long it’ll be before I see it again. I also wonder if Wilt or Russell had that trait.

[WolfAddict]

Love the Joker, but this is just homer talk from old mate - He can say what he wants, doesn't make it true though

[BodieB]

He's got a ways to go, a long ways to go.

[1993Playoffs]

Dude is obviously biased, but I don’t think it’s as ridiculous of a claim as others will say it is.

It is. He’s not even close

[Mephariel]

It's baseless and absolutely absurd at this point in time. You have to leapfrog 10-20 absolute legends to even get to this discussion, and at which point there is no discussion to be had

If we’re talking about NBA resumes, he’s not top 10. If we’re talking about all the things he can do on the basketball court, he’s up there.

It kind of reminds me of an article in 1986 saying that Bird was the GOAT. Obviously Bird didn’t have the best NBA resume during his 7th season, but he was able to do things on the court that we hadn’t seen before.

I actually understand and agree with your take.
It’s really hard to say, but if you see a truly special/amazing player, you can say things like this. Bobby Knight called MJ the best player he’d ever seen before he entered the league.
The ring counting narrative only started with this recent generation as a sure fire, even materialistic way to catch GOAT status, but you can often see how dominant or special a player is right away. Those championships happen organically as a desire to win.
Prime Bird was a bit like a video game cheat code. Jokic has aspects of that as well.

Jokic is up there on offense. But defense...no