Kyrie Trade Discussion Continued

[Mulhollanddrive]

"Johnson hoped to sign a six-year, $50 million extension with Phoenix before last season, but the talks stalled with the sides about $5 million apart."

Irving makes less not more next contract by moving.

[infinite11285]

Is this really that different than when Joe Johnson wanted to leave the legendary Suns team to have his own team in Atlanta?
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

It's similar, but how'd that ultimately end for Joe Johnson? Money aside, he blew what could've been a great career under better circumstances.

[dorkestra]

Is this really that different than when Joe Johnson wanted to leave the legendary Suns team to have his own team in Atlanta?
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

It's similar, but how'd that ultimately end for Joe Johnson? Money aside, he blew what could've been a great career under better circumstances.

I think the people who are wondering why Irving and Johnson would do something like this are people who just wouldn't do that themselves. Personally, I can relate a bit to wanting to get out behind someone's shadow to be the most you can be - whatever that happens to be. Some want to win and play good basketball. Some want money. Some want pride. Every player has a different flavor combination he desires. If your a Cavs fan, you've get every right to be frustrated, but otherwise, I see no issue at all with what Irving and Joe Johnson did.

[infinite11285]

Is this really that different than when Joe Johnson wanted to leave the legendary Suns team to have his own team in Atlanta?
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

It's similar, but how'd that ultimately end for Joe Johnson? Money aside, he blew what could've been a great career under better circumstances.

I think the people who are wondering why Irving and Johnson would do something like this are people who just wouldn't do that themselves. Personally, I can relate a bit to wanting to get out behind someone's shadow to be the most you can be - whatever that happens to be. Some want to win and play good basketball. Some want money. Some want pride. Every player has a different flavor combination he desires. If your a Cavs fan, you've get every right to be frustrated, but otherwise, I see no issue at all with what Irving and Joe Johnson did.

You're absolutely right in your opinion.

In the context of basketball success, Kyrie being behind LeBron's shadow is the best he can be and it shows humility to acknowledge that. Imagine Pippen wanting to leave MJ's shadow after the first 3-peat? Would he have had the same success? Absolutely not. Kyrie won't see this type of success manning his own team. He simply won't. He doesn't have that "it" and for him to believe he has a better shot then being on a team that went to three straight Finals while under the command of one of the greatest players ever, then it's a severe miscalculation on his part. I can't say I'm too surprised though given he believes the Earth is one massive floor.

[SelfishPlayer]

Kyrie Irving could never carry his own team to being a championship contender unless he were surrunded by talent like Steph Curry. He could never be an Iverson. Why? He can't because he doesn't have enough physical talent. He's not fast enough, not long enough, doesn't jump high enough. Kyrie has to work so hard to score in the halfcourt. Those dribbling exhibitions are called being a ball stopper when you are the #1 player on the team.

[dorkestra]

It's similar, but how'd that ultimately end for Joe Johnson? Money aside, he blew what could've been a great career under better circumstances.

I think the people who are wondering why Irving and Johnson would do something like this are people who just wouldn't do that themselves. Personally, I can relate a bit to wanting to get out behind someone's shadow to be the most you can be - whatever that happens to be. Some want to win and play good basketball. Some want money. Some want pride. Every player has a different flavor combination he desires. If your a Cavs fan, you've get every right to be frustrated, but otherwise, I see no issue at all with what Irving and Joe Johnson did.

You're absolutely right in your opinion.

In the context of basketball success, Kyrie being behind LeBron's shadow is the best he can be; it shows humility to acknowledge that; imagine Pippen wanting to leave MJ's shadow after the first 3-peat? Would he have had the same success? Absolutely not. Kyrie won't see this type of success manning his own team. He simply won't. He doesn't have that "it".

I think you're probably right about Kyrie. My prediction for him is the same. Wherever he gets traded, if he is the lead man, they are unlikely to make the playoffs. But maybe from his standpoint, that's why he wants to leave. Prove people wrong about him being the sidekick. Even if he is wrong, you could see how that could influence him to try and prove himself. And then in a weird roundabout way, I'll probably end up rooting for him because he will have become an underdog. And I'm a sucker for a good underdog story.

[clyde21]

I still don't understand why PHX would do this deal, honestly. Having two shoot-first, terrible defenders at both guard positions isn't a good idea. Will be fun to watch and they'll score a lot of points, but it's just not a winning formula.

[SelfishPlayer]

Amazing to read one sentence that says he's tired of being the #2 to LeBron, which we already knew? Or am I missing this article?

"Kyrie Irving agreed upon a five-year, $90 million max extension with the Cleveland Cavaliers 10 days before LeBron James returned to the franchise.

At that time in 2014, Irving reportedly "didn't particularly care for James to return to Cleveland."

After three straight trips to The Finals, Irving no longer wants to play alongside James.

“Kyrie isn’t saying he’s better than LeBron and should be seen that way,” a close confidant of Irving’s told ESPN. “He’s saying he’s not about to let LeBron ‘SON’ him … treating him like he’s the child and LeBron’s the father or big brother he’s supposed to look up to.

“Kyrie knows he’s a franchise-caliber talent. He wants to be treated like it. And he’s tired of hearing about what LeBron needs, and he’s damn sure tired of hearing LeBron sound like he always needs more. As if the crew they have isn’t enough.”

If the above is true that's saying a lot. And I'd bet there are others who have played with him who feel the same way, but don't have the guts to say it.

I think that most players in the NBA are upset at things like this. Most NBA players think they're hot stuff and would be right up there with LeBron and Curry if they had more help or more opportunity with the ball.

I'm sure Wade felt the same and was happy he left in '14, because he was tired of being the #2 and not having his own team. You can definitely say that Westbrook felt this way about Durant, or Blake about CP3. NBA players are often just delusional when it comes to these things, I don't think it's worth putting much stock into these sort of statements.

But they just don't say it publicly because they don't want to get laughed at or criticism thrown at them.

You're wrong about Wade and the proof is a part of public record. Lebron was Wade's #2 during the first season of the Heatles. Wade decided to take a backseat the next season and the Heatles won their first title after doing so.

[DirtyDez]

Is this really that different than when Joe Johnson wanted to leave the legendary Suns team to have his own team in Atlanta?
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

The summer of 04' Joe wanted a 6 year deal for 50m and the Suns were only offering 45. Keep in mind that JJ hadn't proven much until that point and there was nothing wrong with the Suns wanting to see another season before giving him a 6 year deal. The mistake was giving Q-Rich the exact same deal they wouldn't give JJ. I think he made up his mind at that point to play out his last year and ask Phoenix not to match any offer-sheet the following summer. At that point nobody realized how good the Suns were going to be.

[sikma42]

It's similar, but how'd that ultimately end for Joe Johnson? Money aside, he blew what could've been a great career under better circumstances.

I think the people who are wondering why Irving and Johnson would do something like this are people who just wouldn't do that themselves. Personally, I can relate a bit to wanting to get out behind someone's shadow to be the most you can be - whatever that happens to be. Some want to win and play good basketball. Some want money. Some want pride. Every player has a different flavor combination he desires. If your a Cavs fan, you've get every right to be frustrated, but otherwise, I see no issue at all with what Irving and Joe Johnson did.

You're absolutely right in your opinion.

In the context of basketball success, Kyrie being behind LeBron's shadow is the best he can be and it shows humility to acknowledge that. Imagine Pippen wanting to leave MJ's shadow after the first 3-peat? Would he have had the same success? Absolutely not. Kyrie won't see this type of success manning his own team. He simply won't. He doesn't have that "it" and for him to believe he has a better shot then being on a team that went to three straight Finals while under the command of one of the greatest players ever, then it's a severe miscalculation on his part. I can't say I'm too surprised though given he believes the Earth is one massive floor.

It depends on how you define success. He wouldn't win as many titles, but he may have solidified himself higher on the all time lists.

Kyrie has already answered the question about whether he is a championship caliber 2nd option and closer. Now he wants to combat other questions about his game...I have nothing wrong with that.




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[The_Hater]

I still don't understand why PHX would do this deal, honestly. Having two shoot-first, terrible defenders at both guard positions isn't a good idea. Will be fun to watch and they'll score a lot of points, but it's just not a winning formula.

Because they need to sell tickets

Because they've missed the playoffs for 7 straight years and feel that a change is necessary.

Because when you've been rebuilding this long ownership might be putting pressure on management to get better soon.

I'm with you, a terrible defensive backcourt needs an awful lot of help defensively from the other 3 spots but they could end up being a very good offensive team. Plus they seem to be running in place without any star power to left them these past few seasons. But it's kinda ironic that they literally gave Isiah Thomas away 2 years ago and would now look to pay a ransom to add a very similar player.

[clyde21]

I still don't understand why PHX would do this deal, honestly. Having two shoot-first, terrible defenders at both guard positions isn't a good idea. Will be fun to watch and they'll score a lot of points, but it's just not a winning formula.

Because they need to sell tickets

Because they've missed the playoffs for 7 straight years and feel that a change is necessary.

Because when you've been rebuilding this long ownership might be putting pressure on management to get better soon.

I'm with you, a terrible defensive backcourt needs an awful lot of help defensively from the other 3 spots but they could end up being a very good offensive team. Plus they seem to be running in place without any star power to left them these past few seasons. But it's kinda ironic that they literally gave Isiah Thomas away 2 years ago and would now look to pay a ransom to add a very similar player.

If you're making moves just to "sell tickets" you'er gonna be out of a job very soon. Good luck to them if this goes through, but I'm not a fan of this at all. Treadmill city.

[The_Hater]

I still don't understand why PHX would do this deal, honestly. Having two shoot-first, terrible defenders at both guard positions isn't a good idea. Will be fun to watch and they'll score a lot of points, but it's just not a winning formula.

Because they need to sell tickets

Because they've missed the playoffs for 7 straight years and feel that a change is necessary.

Because when you've been rebuilding this long ownership might be putting pressure on management to get better soon.

I'm with you, a terrible defensive backcourt needs an awful lot of help defensively from the other 3 spots but they could end up being a very good offensive team. Plus they seem to be running in place without any star power to left them these past few seasons. But it's kinda ironic that they literally gave Isiah Thomas away 2 years ago and would now look to pay a ransom to add a very similar player.

If you're making moves just to "sell tickets" you'er gonna be out of a job very soon. Good luck to them if this goes through, but I'm not a fan of this at all. Treadmill city.

For sure, but McDonough just got extended after 5 years of pretty much running in place so he must be doing something right to make ownership happy. That's usually profits. Not every team owner has the goal of winning the championship and doing whatever possible to achieve that goal. I was just throwing out possibilities anyways, I don't have a clue what the Suns direction going forward is.

[SelfishPlayer]

I think the people who are wondering why Irving and Johnson would do something like this are people who just wouldn't do that themselves. Personally, I can relate a bit to wanting to get out behind someone's shadow to be the most you can be - whatever that happens to be. Some want to win and play good basketball. Some want money. Some want pride. Every player has a different flavor combination he desires. If your a Cavs fan, you've get every right to be frustrated, but otherwise, I see no issue at all with what Irving and Joe Johnson did.

You're absolutely right in your opinion.

In the context of basketball success, Kyrie being behind LeBron's shadow is the best he can be and it shows humility to acknowledge that. Imagine Pippen wanting to leave MJ's shadow after the first 3-peat? Would he have had the same success? Absolutely not. Kyrie won't see this type of success manning his own team. He simply won't. He doesn't have that "it" and for him to believe he has a better shot then being on a team that went to three straight Finals while under the command of one of the greatest players ever, then it's a severe miscalculation on his part. I can't say I'm too surprised though given he believes the Earth is one massive floor.

It depends on how you define success. He wouldn't win as many titles, but he may have solidified himself higher on the all time lists.

Kyrie has already answered the question about whether he is a championship caliber 2nd option and closer. Now he wants to combat other questions about his game...I have nothing wrong with that.




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Winners play to answer questions pertaining to championships. The question is "can Kyrie win another one with Lebron." He's avoiding that question to answer questions that I do not respect. It seems as if Durant signing with GSW and now Kyrie asking for a trade are moves made with the desired intention to hurt Lebron's legacy.

[HEKTOR]

Reunite Bron-Bron with his buddy Wade:

TO CAVS:
Wade
Portis
Dunn
Future 1st

TO BULLS:
Irving
JR

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Kyrie is an intellectual.....sometimes those dudes come off as odd.

Intellectual? I'm pretty certain, nobody who legitimately believes the earth is flat should be described as "intellectual", even for an nba player. I'm undecided if kyrie was trolling there though.

Like, uhhh, questioning what is positively known and verifiable is more likely to make me believe you're an idiot rather than an open free thinker or whatever.

[JonFromVA]

Problem CLE has, doing this half compete/half prepping for LBJ's departure will ultimately lead us to 1) we come up short cuz we didn't have the right players 2) we settle for a crap return on Kyrie and 3) LBJ just leaves anyways...

That depends how the young player the Cavs get in the deal looks If he looks at all promising, I think it becomes a reason for James to return - either for what that player may become, or for what he may bring back in a trade.

The problem the Cavs ran in to in 2010 and the Heat in 2014 was the feeling that the team was stuck with vets in decline and without young players in the pipeline nor assets that could be used to improve the team. James wasn't going to make a decision based on blind faith in a GM/owner when he could take charge himself.

[InWestWeTrust]

Kyrie is an intellectual.....sometimes those dudes come off as odd.

Intellectual? I'm pretty certain, nobody who legitimately believes the earth is flat should be described as "intellectual", even for an nba player. I'm undecided if kyrie was trolling there though.

Like, uhhh, questioning what is positively known and verifiable is more likely to make me believe you're an idiot rather than an open free thinker or whatever.

It's always good to question things. Especially when you've made no observations yourself and all the "known" evidence comes from a second hand source.

Not saying I believe in flat earth theory. But it's very close minded to be so critical of someone because of their beliefs.

[sikma42]

You're absolutely right in your opinion.

In the context of basketball success, Kyrie being behind LeBron's shadow is the best he can be and it shows humility to acknowledge that. Imagine Pippen wanting to leave MJ's shadow after the first 3-peat? Would he have had the same success? Absolutely not. Kyrie won't see this type of success manning his own team. He simply won't. He doesn't have that "it" and for him to believe he has a better shot then being on a team that went to three straight Finals while under the command of one of the greatest players ever, then it's a severe miscalculation on his part. I can't say I'm too surprised though given he believes the Earth is one massive floor.

It depends on how you define success. He wouldn't win as many titles, but he may have solidified himself higher on the all time lists.

Kyrie has already answered the question about whether he is a championship caliber 2nd option and closer. Now he wants to combat other questions about his game...I have nothing wrong with that.




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Winners play to answer questions pertaining to championships. The question is "can Kyrie win another one with Lebron." He's avoiding that question to answer questions that I do not respect. It seems as if Durant signing with GSW and now Kyrie asking for a trade are moves made with the desired intention to hurt Lebron's legacy.

Seems like you have a very Lebron-centric view of these events.

These players careers don't revolve around Lebron.

This is legit the same logic Kobe dealt with when he feuded with Shaq. Everyone said he was dumb and that he didn't value winning etc. those 2 wins and 3 finals appearances were worth more than anything he could have done with Shaq. Sometimes you gotta make a leap.

Really wish we could pull up threads from somewhere when Shaq first left...

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[SF_Warriors]

Is this really that different than when Joe Johnson wanted to leave the legendary Suns team to have his own team in Atlanta?
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

The summer of 04' Joe wanted a 6 year deal for 50m and the Suns were only offering 45. Keep in mind that JJ hadn't proven much until that point and there was nothing wrong with the Suns wanting to see another season before giving him a 6 year deal. The mistake was giving Q-Rich the exact same deal they wouldn't give JJ. I think he made up his mind at that point to play out his last year and ask Phoenix not to match any offer-sheet the following summer. At that point nobody realized how good the Suns were going to be.

Yea, two different situations

The suns were lowballing him and atl was offering a really lucrative contract..this was a 23 yr old who just barely had a break out year being offered $20+ mill in an era where that kind of money was reserved for the top all stars! In retrospect he would have been a fool not to take that money.

Irving at this stage is an established all star. Some people say he is overrated but no one can say he isnt all star caliber. He's not exactly getting lowballed, he just wants to go out and prove himself as worthy of being a franchise player. Although we can all probably guess he is not quite that, I do not see anything wrong that he would want to take that route instead of dominating the east next to lebron. Kyrie already has the chip andmultiple finals trips, yet no one was ever going to give him any credit because of lebron. This is very evident looking at some of the posts in this thread, and also that somewhat classless commercial that we just all saw.

Lebron deserves all the credit in the world, but kyrie played a big part in the cavs success, especially in 2016. Kyrie hit that shot, but he also averaged 27ppg in that finals and thoroughly dominated his matchup against the reigning mvp.