Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[SpreeS]

Bro, what more can he do than 34/19 in game 7 ffs

to defend

[Special_Puppy]

People blaming Jokic for the Nuggets losing that series are arguing in bad faith. +5.7 prior EPM in that series. +6.7 over the past 5 games. His supporting cast just let him down

his defence let him down too. Grabbing 15-20reb is outstanding, but player has more responsibilities at center position - defend the paint and rim not only rebound. DEN players helped to defend paint and left corners 3 wide open.

Jokic career PO +/- only +1.2 Apart his stats I dont see his dominance in PO if compare with RS +7.0 It shows that opponents know how to play against Jokic defence. If we look at the best players of this era

RS/PO/diff

Giannis +4.5/+4.3/-0.2
Curry +7.9/+7.6/-0.3
Lebron +6.6/+5.8/-0.8
Doncic +2.8/+1.8/-1.0
Durant +5.9/+4.2/-1.7
Embiid +8.6/+6.6/-2.0
Kawhi +9.9/+6.9/-3.0
Harden +5.8/+2.3/-3.5
Tatum +8.4/+4.1/-4.3


Jokic +7.0/+1.2/-5.8
Paul +6.8/+0.9/-5.9

ATG

Garnett +5.2/+2.5/-2.7
Duncan +9.7/+6.0/-3.7
Kobe +4.2/+3.3/-0.9
O'Neal +7.8/+4.9/-2.9
Nash +6.3/+2.1/-4.2
Wade +4.0/+3.3/-0.7
Dirk +5.6/-0.2/-5.8 (another big who couldn't defend)

Also Den defence 19-24 compared RS and PO is 3.75 worse in PO than in RS

RS 112.03drtg
PO 115.78drtg

EPM Prior takes into account defense. Using playoff on off to make your point is also very silly. You need 200+ games for plus-minus data to be useful

[Gusto1903]

Bro, what more can he do than 34/19 in game 7 ffs

to defend

They held the Wolves to sub 100 points, and even had a 20 point lead in the first half. He got 20 Rebounds. The Nuggets turned the ball over too many times. Very unnecessarily. Shot badly from 3.

[nikster]

This postseason shows that Jokic needs Murray at close to 1A to 1B level to win it all. Considering Edwards took a Kobe and went 6-24 it`s a disappointing Jokic lead scoring performance, I would say he is overrated as a number one option/lead dog to a certain degree, he needs Murray to both playmake and be a high volume scorer at decent efficiency. Tbf MPJ fell off a cliff from round 1, but yeah.. I don`t see LeBron losing this game with the opposing star going 6-24 with 16 points lets say it like that + Murray actually contributed.

I actually think the Mavericks have a chance if Edwards stinks it up, and Luka gets drugged up to heal those knees.. '

The Nuggets will be huge contenders next year if Murray actually puts work in from this day until the season starts and fixes his body, but its more on him than Jokic for the Nuggets to be contenders, which makes Jokic a tad overrated imo. Murray should get more credit for their run last year.

Murray was at a 18/4 on 48TS% (16 points on 45TS% first 6 games) this series and is a poor defender. He was absolutely brutal for most of it. He didn't even play close to a true #2 let alone a 1b. We supposed to forget that because of one goof game 7?

This isn't a proof Jokic needs a 1b, it's just proof he can't do him himself, like anyone ever.

And Murray played a very good game 7 and Jokic couldn`t be good enough. 90 points... doesn`t have it.

Its one game. Theres a reason it's a 7 game series. And it's not like Jokic was bad, he had 34 and 7

[AussieBuck]

People blaming Jokic for the Nuggets losing that series are arguing in bad faith. +5.7 prior EPM in that series. +6.7 over the past 5 games. His supporting cast just let him down

his defence let him down too. Grabbing 15-20reb is outstanding, but player has more responsibilities at center position - defend the paint and rim not only rebound. DEN players helped to defend paint and left corners 3 wide open.

Jokic career PO +/- only +1.2 Apart his stats I dont see his dominance in PO if compare with RS +7.0 It shows that opponents know how to play against Jokic defence. If we look at the best players of this era

RS/PO/diff

Giannis +4.5/+4.3/-0.2
Curry +7.9/+7.6/-0.3
Lebron +6.6/+5.8/-0.8
Doncic +2.8/+1.8/-1.0
Durant +5.9/+4.2/-1.7
Embiid +8.6/+6.6/-2.0
Kawhi +9.9/+6.9/-3.0
Harden +5.8/+2.3/-3.5
Tatum +8.4/+4.1/-4.3


Jokic +7.0/+1.2/-5.8
Paul +6.8/+0.9/-5.9

ATG

Garnett +5.2/+2.5/-2.7
Duncan +9.7/+6.0/-3.7
Kobe +4.2/+3.3/-0.9
O'Neal +7.8/+4.9/-2.9
Nash +6.3/+2.1/-4.2
Wade +4.0/+3.3/-0.7
Dirk +5.6/-0.2/-5.8 (another big who couldn't defend)

Also Den defence 19-24 compared RS and PO is 3.75 worse in PO than in RS

RS 112.03drtg
PO 115.78drtg

This is essentially it. He deserves his flowers for how **** amazing he is as a touch scorer around the basket, as a passer and reader of the play on both ends but as smart as he is, he's still a **** rim defender who will always be targeted and his team's scheme will always have to revolve around building a shell around him in drop D because he's a crap athlete who has to concede defeat if he can't slap at the ball down low with his godly hands.

I dunno if it's a sympathy thing for fans who emphasise with a crap athlete who defied the odds or whatever but there's been a whole lot of otherwise smart fans around this forum who have wished away a bunch of stuff and made Jokic a GOAT candidate ignoring the significant holes in his game that the great parts don't make disappear.

[hardenASG13]

Bro, what more can he do than 34/19 in game 7 ffs

to defend

Also not disappearing while the other team erases a 20 point second half lead in the 3rd quarter would be nice, for an MVP, in a game 7 on his home court. Or becoming too exhausted to box out because he had to play 47 minutes 1 time.

[tsherkin]

Without reacting too much at the continuation of that discussion, Kareem is another good example: His most productive years were already behind him by 1980 and he still had only 1 ring. Despite this, he is one of the GOAT candidates. What Jokic has done till now absolutely qualifies him to be on the list of potential future GOATs. Now how is he going to age, will he have championship caliber rosters in his post-prime years, how he and his teammates are going to be w/ injuries etc... is going to determine if he will be on the same tier as the other candidates. But based on what he has done till now, he cannot be ruled out.

Indeed.

[DimesandKnicks]

People blaming Jokic for the Nuggets losing that series are arguing in bad faith. +5.7 prior EPM in that series. +6.7 over the past 5 games. His supporting cast just let him down

his defence let him down too. Grabbing 15-20reb is outstanding, but player has more responsibilities at center position - defend the paint and rim not only rebound. DEN players helped to defend paint and left corners 3 wide open.

Jokic career PO +/- only +1.2 Apart his stats I dont see his dominance in PO if compare with RS +7.0 It shows that opponents know how to play against Jokic defence. If we look at the best players of this era

RS/PO/diff

Giannis +4.5/+4.3/-0.2
Curry +7.9/+7.6/-0.3
Lebron +6.6/+5.8/-0.8
Doncic +2.8/+1.8/-1.0
Durant +5.9/+4.2/-1.7
Embiid +8.6/+6.6/-2.0
Kawhi +9.9/+6.9/-3.0
Harden +5.8/+2.3/-3.5
Tatum +8.4/+4.1/-4.3


Jokic +7.0/+1.2/-5.8
Paul +6.8/+0.9/-5.9

ATG

Garnett +5.2/+2.5/-2.7
Duncan +9.7/+6.0/-3.7
Kobe +4.2/+3.3/-0.9
O'Neal +7.8/+4.9/-2.9
Nash +6.3/+2.1/-4.2
Wade +4.0/+3.3/-0.7
Dirk +5.6/-0.2/-5.8 (another big who couldn't defend)

Also Den defence 19-24 compared RS and PO is 3.75 worse in PO than in RS

RS 112.03drtg
PO 115.78drtg

This is essentially it. He deserves his flowers for how **** amazing he is as a touch scorer around the basket, as a passer and reader of the play on both ends but as smart as he is, he's still a **** rim defender who will always be targeted and his team's scheme will always have to revolve around building a shell around him in drop D because he's a crap athlete who has to concede defeat if he can't slap at the ball down low with his godly hands.

I dunno if it's a sympathy thing for fans who emphasise with a crap athlete who defied the odds or whatever but there's been a whole lot of otherwise smart fans around this forum who have wished away a bunch of stuff and made Jokic a GOAT candidate ignoring the significant holes in his game that the great parts don't make disappear.

Bingo

[UglyBugBall]

People blaming Jokic for the Nuggets losing that series are arguing in bad faith. +5.7 prior EPM in that series. +6.7 over the past 5 games. His supporting cast just let him down

Maybe if he had a +8 EPM they win the series no? That's on him. The problem with Jokic is that he doesn't have that killer in him to elevate to whatever it takes to win. You can point to stats that look pretty good, but goat candidates like MJ, Bron, Luka, Kobe and others gave you what you needed to win. Jokic gives you what he needs to look good.

[UglyBugBall]

Swap the useless MPJ with an average contributor and the Nuggets probably win game 7.

You swap Jokic with any of the other stars like Luka, SGA, Tatum and this Nuggets team is not taking the Wolves to 7 games.

Jokic is really underrated by most fans because his game isn't very attractive.

Swap Jokic with Luka and Denver wins this series. You're about to see the difference in the WCF.

[UglyBugBall]

Partial picture. He was 11/18 inside the arc, 6/7 at the line, and had 19 rebounds (6 of them on the offensive glass). AND he was defending well.



No it wasn't, you're just bitter that Embiid has a lot of haters due to his availability issues.

I can be bitter about that, and it can still be true that he is not on a goat trajectory. Have the discussion when he has about 4 Chips, not one.

No, the conversation can be had now. Folks don't have to agree with it, but he's done enough that it's fair to begin the talks. Trying to deny that is just non-sensical.

He hasnt done close to enough. If every player with one ring could be in the discussion the discussion becomes pointless. It's not even clear he's the best player today, let alone in the discussion for all time.

[DimesandKnicks]

Bro literally everyone has said he's the best player in the world. If that's not enough praise then I don't know what else you want.

Yep, that's mostly enough. It's the tone of conversation in some threads which is problematic.

But to put him in the GOAT conversation with 1 championship is cray cray.

No it isn't, that's short-sighted nonsense. They were having the conversation about Jordan before he won even the one title. Same with Lebron.

Sorry but nobody is disrespecting him, he's just not deserving of being in the same conversation as MJ and LeBron. Give him another 5 more years then we can realistically debate GOAT.

No, sorry, but that's non-sensical. The conversation can begin any time. The quality of a player's ability is evident before context-sensitive achievements happen.

Is ability/talent level puts him out of those conversations.

[eyeatoma]

Without reacting too much at the continuation of that discussion, Kareem is another good example: His most productive years were already behind him by 1980 and he still had only 1 ring. Despite this, he is one of the GOAT candidates. What Jokic has done till now absolutely qualifies him to be on the list of potential future GOATs. Now how is he going to age, will he have championship caliber rosters in his post-prime years, how he and his teammates are going to be w/ injuries etc... is going to determine if he will be on the same tier as the other candidates. But based on what he has done till now, he cannot be ruled out.

Indeed.

Kareem had his best years before 1980s, but he was a legend for the rings he garnered.

[tsherkin]

He hasnt done close to enough. If every player with one ring could be in the discussion the discussion becomes pointless. It's not even clear he's the best player today, let alone in the discussion for all time.

This is... historically inaccurate. You definitely are not in tune with the way these conversations have gone for decades and decades. I don't think we have anything left to say to one another on this subject.

Is ability/talent level puts him out of those conversations.

No, that's definitely inaccurate.

Kareem had his best years before 1980s, but he was a legend for the rings he garnered.

Yes and no. He was garnering GOAT conversation before Magic was drafted, though, so that's before all but one of his rings. Kareem as #2 really wasn't improving his legacy as a GOAT candidate, which was his function for the majority of those titles.

[Special_Puppy]

People blaming Jokic for the Nuggets losing that series are arguing in bad faith. +5.7 prior EPM in that series. +6.7 over the past 5 games. His supporting cast just let him down

Maybe if he had a +8 EPM they win the series no? That's on him. The problem with Jokic is that he doesn't have that killer in him to elevate to whatever it takes to win. You can point to stats that look pretty good, but goat candidates like MJ, Bron, Luka, Kobe and others gave you what you needed to win. Jokic gives you what he needs to look good.

Bait or Mental R*tardation. Call it

Be more appropriate. Next violation is a strike.

[UglyBugBall]

He hasnt done close to enough. If every player with one ring could be in the discussion the discussion becomes pointless. It's not even clear he's the best player today, let alone in the discussion for all time.

This is... historically inaccurate. You definitely are not in tune with the way these conversations have gone for decades and decades. I don't think we have anything left to say to one another on this subject.

Is ability/talent level puts him out of those conversations.

No, that's definitely inaccurate.

Kareem had his best years before 1980s, but he was a legend for the rings he garnered.

Yes and no. He was garnering GOAT conversation before Magic was drafted, though, so that's before all but one of his rings. Kareem as #2 really wasn't improving his legacy as a GOAT candidate, which was his function for the majority of those titles.

Before MJ the bar for goat discussions was a lot lower. Once it was raised to 5mvps and 6 fmvps those premature conversations dried up.

[UglyBugBall]

People blaming Jokic for the Nuggets losing that series are arguing in bad faith. +5.7 prior EPM in that series. +6.7 over the past 5 games. His supporting cast just let him down

Maybe if he had a +8 EPM they win the series no? That's on him. The problem with Jokic is that he doesn't have that killer in him to elevate to whatever it takes to win. You can point to stats that look pretty good, but goat candidates like MJ, Bron, Luka, Kobe and others gave you what you needed to win. Jokic gives you what he needs to look good.

Bait or Mental R*tardation. Call it

You keep feeling satisfied with 5.7 EPM even when it wasn't enough to get the job done. Results matter. Stats are just the way you get them.

[Jailblazers7]

The series only made it to 7 because Jokic & he was carrying the team all game. But this is the life of a 3-time MVP, you are gonna get held responsible for not delivering in a winnable game. Jokic is lauded for his ability to control the game (true & deserved) but his team blew a 20 point lead in the biggest game of the season. So it’s turn to eat sh*t now.

[SpreeS]

People blaming Jokic for the Nuggets losing that series are arguing in bad faith. +5.7 prior EPM in that series. +6.7 over the past 5 games. His supporting cast just let him down

his defence let him down too. Grabbing 15-20reb is outstanding, but player has more responsibilities at center position - defend the paint and rim not only rebound. DEN players helped to defend paint and left corners 3 wide open.

Jokic career PO +/- only +1.2 Apart his stats I dont see his dominance in PO if compare with RS +7.0 It shows that opponents know how to play against Jokic defence. If we look at the best players of this era

RS/PO/diff

Giannis +4.5/+4.3/-0.2
Curry +7.9/+7.6/-0.3
Lebron +6.6/+5.8/-0.8
Doncic +2.8/+1.8/-1.0
Durant +5.9/+4.2/-1.7
Embiid +8.6/+6.6/-2.0
Kawhi +9.9/+6.9/-3.0
Harden +5.8/+2.3/-3.5
Tatum +8.4/+4.1/-4.3


Jokic +7.0/+1.2/-5.8
Paul +6.8/+0.9/-5.9

ATG

Garnett +5.2/+2.5/-2.7
Duncan +9.7/+6.0/-3.7
Kobe +4.2/+3.3/-0.9
O'Neal +7.8/+4.9/-2.9
Nash +6.3/+2.1/-4.2
Wade +4.0/+3.3/-0.7
Dirk +5.6/-0.2/-5.8 (another big who couldn't defend)

Also Den defence 19-24 compared RS and PO is 3.75 worse in PO than in RS

RS 112.03drtg
PO 115.78drtg

EPM Prior takes into account defense. Using playoff on off to make your point is also very silly. You need 200+ games for plus-minus data to be useful

These numbers shows execlty what is happening on the floor. No need to use all these dificult formulas too understand that Jokic isnt good at defence. Do you think something change after 200+ games?

2019-2024 PO drtg

Adebayo in 111.25 out 114.47 dif +3.22
Embiid in 109.69 out 116.03 dif +6.34
Giannis in 104.88 out 114.01 dif +9.13
Davis in 110.54 out 111.95 dif +1.41
Green in 110.76 out 114.07 dif +3.31
Horford in 107.31 out 112.41 dif +5.10
Turner in 111.95 out 115.19 dif +4.0
Jackson in 112.19 out 112.36 dif +0.17
Robinson in 109.08 out 116.90 dif +7.82
Gordon in 114.98 out 116.75 dif +1.77

Ayton in 114.54 out 114.11 dif -0.45

Jokic in 115.78 out 113.13 dif -2.65
Towns in 115.49 out 103.60 dif -11.89
Sabonis SAC 115.44 out 104.41 dif -11.03
Sabonis IND 109.18 out 100.77 dif -8.41
Valanciunas MEM in 127.57 out 115.92 dif -11.65
Valanciunas NOP in 121.89 out 108.78 dif -13.11

21-24 Gordon n Jokic

Gordon w/o Jokic 108.60drtg
Gordon with Jokic 116.10drtg
Jokic w/o Gordon 117.35drtg

Only Gobert numbers are exception, other reflects whole reality and without 200+ games

[Dirk]

People blaming Jokic for the Nuggets losing that series are arguing in bad faith. +5.7 prior EPM in that series. +6.7 over the past 5 games. His supporting cast just let him down

Maybe if he had a +8 EPM they win the series no? That's on him. The problem with Jokic is that he doesn't have that killer in him to elevate to whatever it takes to win. You can point to stats that look pretty good, but goat candidates like MJ, Bron, Luka, Kobe and others gave you what you needed to win. Jokic gives you what he needs to look good.

Bait or Mental R*tardation. Call it

You know... everyone else has to read the things we write.

It's fine if you don't rate another other user very highly, but if that's the case, then either ignore or elevate discussion.

Writing "mental retardation" (with an asterisk no less, you even worried it could be filtered out?) is not what we signed up for as we sip our morning coffee and browse Realgm.

I don't think too many give the underlying idea of the topic much stock... so really makes no sense to attack other users on here.