RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[LordCovington33]

Definitely not there yet, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could get there by the end of his career.

He needs 2 or 3 more rings to even be considered. Not impossible, but quite a challenge getting them.

[Mephariel]

Definitely not there yet, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could get there by the end of his career.

He needs 2 or 3 more rings to even be considered. Not impossible, but quite a challenge getting them.

Even if you take Lebron out of the picture, the question is, what does he have to do to be considered better than Kareem? I think that is a tall order.

[Lalouie]

Thoughts?

can't defend
walton was better

but best since mj

[NZB2323]

What does he have to do to be considered better than Tim Duncan?

Probably maintain his current career arc on an individual level with two more rings or one more and excellent longevity? Like right now I have Duncan #4 all-time and KG #6 even though I think KG was probably more impressive on an individual level because I can’t quite get past the rings thing. I feel like Jokic is on a similar start to KG for his career in terms of individual impact, although the 2023 ring was a very impressive team accomplishment that might put him on a slightly better pace.

You think Duncan gets passed up from a guy with 2 rings?

That would be an interesting discussion.

I'm high on Jokic but I find it difficult to rate him that high yet. Though he does have 3 MVPs

I think most people have Wilt ranked ahead of Duncan.

[iggymcfrack]

Definitely not there yet, but it’s not unreasonable to think he could get there by the end of his career.

He needs 2 or 3 more rings to even be considered. Not impossible, but quite a challenge getting them.

Agreed. LeBron passed MJ IMO on his 3rd ring, but it was an insane ring over a 73-win team and it was probably his 6th year as best player in the league with what I’d consider a higher peak than Jokic. Combining rings and years as best player in the league, Jokic would probably need 6 more to have a good argument for top 2. To get there with any less, he’d need a crazy peak season that obviously clears Bron and MJ.

[NZB2323]

Sorry but if you want to be the best player ever you can't lose that series. Excuses aren't made when you're talking that high of a level

Yes, great players have never lost in the playoffs, especially to teams that are top 3 in point differential!

The 2024 Timberwolves had a better Net Rtg than the 2011 Mavs and 1990 Detroit Pistons.

He was up 3-2 against a team lead by 22 year old Anthony Edwards and couldn't get the job done, it's a blemish. Not like a 2nd best player of all time claim should be taken seriously in the 1st place. I don't think you realize how dominant a player like that is

Kareem was swept in 83 and 77.

Jordan was swept in 86 and 87.

Lebron was swept in 2007, 2018, and 2023.

But somehow losing in 7 is worse than losing in 4?

[LuDux1]

What's "EuroLeague team president"?

[AmIWrongDude]

It’s an insane statement if u look at it from the GOAT argument pov. Idk what he’s considered in that but it’s not close to top 10.

From a pure basketball pov I think he’s top 10. There’s never been a big like him so skilled while also being so powerful.

He’s the GOAT euro from a bball perspective. Reminds me of a big man LeBron in a lot of ways: double him and he’ll kill you with passing, put a huge body on him and he’ll use his skills to make them look dumb, put a great but not super strong defender like AD on him and he’ll just put them under the basket.

[Johnny Firpo]

Thoughts?

can't defend
walton was better

but best since mj

Yawn.

[peja_the_legend]

The guy who made this claim,Gianakopoulos is an absolute clown.His opinions aren't to be taken seriously at all.

[KGtabake]

The guy who made this claim,Gianakopoulos is an absolute clown.His opinions aren't to be taken seriously at all.

His team is the reigning EuroLeague champion and they're a 7 times winner of the competition.
Some of the greatest European players ever have played for that team.
So i say he has a thing or two to say about basketball.

[AmIWrongDude]

The guy who made this claim,Gianakopoulos is an absolute clown.His opinions aren't to be taken seriously at all.

His team is the reigning EuroLeague champion and they're a 7 times winner of the competition.
Some of the greatest European players ever have played for that team.
So i say he has a thing or two to say about basketball.

So you think Jokic actually has an argument to be top 2 all time?

Players/coaches obviously know basketball but they’re even more biased than us and we’ve seen time and time again they can have some crazy takes. Even MJ has been a terrible owner.

I love Jokic but he’s not close to being top 10.

[AleksandarN]

And while we're here, the 2nd best player ever while fully healthy never goes out like that in the playoffs like he did vs. Minny a few months ago, while in his age 28 season at that.

34Pts 19Reb 7Ast?

Sorry but if you want to be the best player ever you can't lose that series. Excuses aren't made when you're talking that high of a level

Yeah totally agree. It’s not like what Lebron did in his prime losing to a Mavs team with the loaded Heat. Ask you this what team is better that Heat team or last year’s Nuggets team. Lol.

[Edrees]

Stop being prisoner of the moment. if jokic ends up with 1 title, in 20 years barely anyone will talk about him. Hell end up just around where Dirk is.

He needs to win a lot more before any conversation is had. Needs at least 1 DPOY too or at least needs to finish top 3 in DPOY voting a few times to surpass guys ahead of him. Which I will bet a million dollars will never happen.

[peja_the_legend]

The guy who made this claim,Gianakopoulos is an absolute clown.His opinions aren't to be taken seriously at all.

His team is the reigning EuroLeague champion and they're a 7 times winner of the competition.
Some of the greatest European players ever have played for that team.
So i say he has a thing or two to say about basketball.

You have to be from Greece to know a thing or two about this person.To an outsider he looks like it sure but in reality he inheritied all his fortune from his father,his father was the one who made the basketball club as big as it is.Himself is just not a serious person,i won't go further as i would have to mention his political opinions(that are ugly,really ugly).

[LaLover11]

34Pts 19Reb 7Ast?

Sorry but if you want to be the best player ever you can't lose that series. Excuses aren't made when you're talking that high of a level

Yeah totally agree. It’s not like what Lebron did in his prime losing to a Mavs team with the loaded Heat. Ask you this what team is better that Heat team or last year’s Nuggets team. Lol.

Timberwolves didn't beat the Back to Back Champion KB/Gasol/Phil Lakers, Big 3 Durant, Harden, Westbrook Thunder in the Western Conference lol

Mavs we're way better and I mean way better than the Gobert Timberwolves

[KGtabake]

The guy who made this claim,Gianakopoulos is an absolute clown.His opinions aren't to be taken seriously at all.

His team is the reigning EuroLeague champion and they're a 7 times winner of the competition.
Some of the greatest European players ever have played for that team.
So i say he has a thing or two to say about basketball.

You have to be from Greece to know a thing or two about this person.To an outsider he looks like it sure but in reality he inheritied all his fortune from his father,his father was the one who made the basketball club as big as it is.Himself is just not a serious person,i won't go further as i would have to mention his political opinions(that are ugly,really ugly).

You're talking basketball. Stick to it.
His fortunes and political views are his own matter.
He knows basketball, he has grown into it.
You can disagree but that has nothing to do with his fortune etc

[KGtabake]

The guy who made this claim,Gianakopoulos is an absolute clown.His opinions aren't to be taken seriously at all.

His team is the reigning EuroLeague champion and they're a 7 times winner of the competition.
Some of the greatest European players ever have played for that team.
So i say he has a thing or two to say about basketball.

So you think Jokic actually has an argument to be top 2 all time?

Players/coaches obviously know basketball but they’re even more biased than us and we’ve seen time and time again they can have some crazy takes. Even MJ has been a terrible owner.

I love Jokic but he’s not close to being top 10.

I don't have Jokic in my top15. That's my opinion.
If giannakopoulos has a different opinion he has the right to express it.
And bias has nothing to do here. Jokic is Serbian, he isn't Greek.

[Message Boar]

I'm not sure it's in here anywhere but the person who said this is Dimitris Giannakopoulos, president of Greek club Panathinaikos. Seems relevant. I was half expecting it to be someone Serbian or at least from a Balkan country when I searched for it, honestly.

Anyway as for the topic at hand, Jokic is great, but peak LeBron was clearly better in my opinion, as much as I don't like that guy. Also some respect is due for the guys that played before Mike, like Kareem, Wilt, etc. Heck even Bill Walton if we're going pure "best player, at their peak". And where does Sabonis factor into all this, since he was basically proto-Jokic?

[AmIWrongDude]

His team is the reigning EuroLeague champion and they're a 7 times winner of the competition.
Some of the greatest European players ever have played for that team.
So i say he has a thing or two to say about basketball.

So you think Jokic actually has an argument to be top 2 all time?

Players/coaches obviously know basketball but they’re even more biased than us and we’ve seen time and time again they can have some crazy takes. Even MJ has been a terrible owner.

I love Jokic but he’s not close to being top 10.

I don't have Jokic in my top15. That's my opinion.
If giannakopoulos has a different opinion he has the right to express it.
And bias has nothing to do here. Jokic is Serbian, he isn't Greek.

Of course everyone has a right to any opinion but we also have a right to question that opinion.

I can say Mario Chalmers is the GOAT but I’d have to be able to back it up. Obviously an extreme example but there isn’t much to back an argument of Jokic being #2 on the GOAT list. He might as well have just said he’s also better than MJ.

I’d love to hear his argument though. My guess is that he’s not talking about career and is taking more 1 year impact and that is more defensible. Jokic’s impact is insane and combination of power, skill, and passing is something we’ve never seen before but he needs to do it for longer and win more.