2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[zonedefense]

Can any Mavs fans briefly summarize why Mavs suck so badly on road and also why are they so good at home? The difference in their Home vs Away record is staggering

Role players 3-point shooting. Wes (44%-36%), DFS (42%-29%). For a team that is taking that many 3s it is a real problem.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

What game have you been watching? He had pretty bad game for his standards. But he did hit some important tough shots again, so there is that.

What game were YOU watching? 25/6/7 and +11. Yeah, he had too many turnovers. But PG13 got away with a lot of fouls as well. Great game and more sick shot making.

He makes an all-NBA defender look silly at 19.

He was 25/3/7 and 6 TO. Missed at least 3 completely open 3 pointers as well. Apparently i did watch a different game than you

Also took at least 5 extremely bad shots and had at least 3-4 avoidable TO's. For his standards, yes he had a bad game. I am watching him since he was 16/17, i know quite well when he plays subpar. It's a fair criticism and he still produced a very good box score result and a win. Which shows you really how special player he is. But all in all, he deserves some criticism for this performance. If we are criticizing other rookies, i think its fair that we also criticize him.

25/7 are better than what he averages, so no, even by his standards, not a bad game. The 6 TOs are obviously too many, but he made up for it with scoring and assists. He clearly had an impact on the game given his +11 rating.

[Imon]

Let me state again.

Ayton is a fine player, maybe even a franchise player one day but he has nothing on Doncic as a prospect.

In my years of watching basketball, I've not seen a prospect like Doncic since LeBron. I think the Suns fans fail to see or realize how generational Doncic is through their rose colored glasses.

Look, I have nothing against the Suns and actually hate the Mavs as a secondary Rockets fans. However, Doncic is a league changing prospect. This doesn't mean that he will change with the league, but with good development, he legitimately has a shot at becoming the face of NBA basketball.

Sadly, I see zero such potential in Ayton (and JJJ)

I don't think I agree with that. Maybe in turns of overall skillset Luka is more polished right now but Ayton is a 7-footer and as Barkley always says, "you can't teach height".
I know a lot of casual fans don't really factor in height to "potential" but IMO it's better to have a skilled 7-footer than a skilled guard/forward in a vacuum. There are exceptions obviously (MJ & Lebron) but there's sometime very alluring to front offices about drafting an all-star big.
Last thing - Hakeem was drafted 1st overall and MJ 3rd in the same draft. I'm sure if you asked Rockets fans most of them would say they were happy with the Hakeem pick and wouldn't change it. Ayton and Luka could both turn out to be multiple-time all-stars - who will be better only time will tell but I think both teams are happy with their picks right now.

7 footers haven't won anything within the past decade. And Ayton is no Hakeem or Barkley.

I'm not talking about just traditional centers I'm talking about height specifically. In most cases it's better to be taller and skilled than not since the hoop is 10' in the air.
Kenny Smith once said in a episode of "Open Court" (which episode I can't remember) that you never find good 7-footers on bad teams but you can often find good guards on bad teams. This isn't true without exception, of course, but you get the point - taller players make a disproportionate impact on the game vs smaller players all things equal.

[CptCrunch]

Turnovers don't matter one bit for rookies.

Let us review the leaders in turnovers in the modern LeBron era

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2004&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=tov_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=3&order_by=tov

[spanishninja]

Let me state again.

Ayton is a fine player, maybe even a franchise player one day but he has nothing on Doncic as a prospect.

In my years of watching basketball, I've not seen a prospect like Doncic since LeBron. I think the Suns fans fail to see or realize how generational Doncic is through their rose colored glasses.

Look, I have nothing against the Suns and actually hate the Mavs as a secondary Rockets fans. However, Doncic is a league changing prospect. This doesn't mean that he will change with the league, but with good development, he legitimately has a shot at becoming the face of NBA basketball.

Sadly, I see zero such potential in Ayton (and JJJ)

I don't think I agree with that. Maybe in turns of overall skillset Luka is more polished right now but Ayton is a 7-footer and as Barkley always says, "you can't teach height".
I know a lot of casual fans don't really factor in height to "potential" but IMO it's better to have a skilled 7-footer than a skilled guard/forward in a vacuum. There are exceptions obviously (MJ & Lebron) but there's sometime very alluring to front offices about drafting an all-star big.
Last thing - Hakeem was drafted 1st overall and MJ 3rd in the same draft. I'm sure if you asked Rockets fans most of them would say they were happy with the Hakeem pick and wouldn't change it. Ayton and Luka could both turn out to be multiple-time all-stars - who will be better only time will tell but I think both teams are happy with their picks right now.

7 footers haven't won anything within the past decade. And Ayton is no Hakeem or Barkley.

how do you know Ayton isn't Hakeem or Barkley? from one year of college playing out of position and less than half a season of pro ball? the scary thing about this guy is that he is still learning the game and is very casually putting up a very efficient 17/11. talking about bias, you can't fairly compare a "rookie" with years of Euroleague experience with a kid out of college and say that the former has tons more ceiling while the latter will never be a superstar. i see Doncic peaking earlier, but Ayton has a lot of progress he can still make, using Doncic's ROTY as motivation.

honestly i don't get the media's strategy of putting all their eggs in one basket with this year's class. having several studs in a draft class is a REALLY good thing for the league, but all the journalists want is for one rookie to be thr topic of discussion, while ignoring or **** on the others.

[NY 567]

Those comparing Doncic to Evans is wishful thinking at it's best. The kid is too skilled and too smart for that, not to mention, with an offseason or two in the weightroom with legit NBA trainers he's going to improve his size and strength by quite a bit and his athletic ability at least somewhat. DeAndre Ayton is far more likely to go the way of Enes Kanter and Traw Young is far more likely to go the way of Brandon Jennings than Luka is to go the way of Tyreke Evans.

[Texas Chuck]

[ but all the journalists want is for one rookie to be thr topic of discussion, while ignoring or **** on the others.

I agree Luka is getting the lion's share of the hype. But the others aren't getting ignored or dumped on by any means. Everyone is talking about what a strong class this has been.

[spanishninja]

Those comparing Doncic to Evans is wishful thinking at it's best. The kid is too skilled and too smart for that, not to mention, with an offseason or two in the weightroom with legit NBA trainers he's going to improve his size and strength by quite a bit and his athletic ability at least somewhat. DeAndre Ayton is far more likely to go the way of Enes Kanter and Traw Young is far more likely to go the way of Brandon Jennings than Luka is to go the way of Tyreke Evans.

so Luka can hit the gym but Trae will never learn to shoot and Ayton will never have a better understanding of the nba game than the halfway mark of the rookie season? what makes you think that only Doncic is able to improve?

[Johnny Firpo]

Those comparing Doncic to Evans is wishful thinking at it's best. The kid is too skilled and too smart for that, not to mention, with an offseason or two in the weightroom with legit NBA trainers he's going to improve his size and strength by quite a bit and his athletic ability at least somewhat. DeAndre Ayton is far more likely to go the way of Enes Kanter and Traw Young is far more likely to go the way of Brandon Jennings than Luka is to go the way of Tyreke Evans.

so Luka can hit the gym but Trae will never learn to shoot and Ayton will never have a better understanding of the nba game than the halfway mark of the rookie season? what makes you think that only Doncic is able to improve?

He didn't say anything like that.

[King Ken]

Those comparing Doncic to Evans is wishful thinking at it's best. The kid is too skilled and too smart for that, not to mention, with an offseason or two in the weightroom with legit NBA trainers he's going to improve his size and strength by quite a bit and his athletic ability at least somewhat. DeAndre Ayton is far more likely to go the way of Enes Kanter and Traw Young is far more likely to go the way of Brandon Jennings than Luka is to go the way of Tyreke Evans.

so Luka can hit the gym but Trae will never learn to shoot and Ayton will never have a better understanding of the nba game than the halfway mark of the rookie season? what makes you think that only Doncic is able to improve?

This is literally the best post in the last 6 pages. Everyone sucks but Doncic. Doncic gets criticized, but but but, he is not Evans. He hasn't peak but everyone else has or sucks.

[NY 567]

Those comparing Doncic to Evans is wishful thinking at it's best. The kid is too skilled and too smart for that, not to mention, with an offseason or two in the weightroom with legit NBA trainers he's going to improve his size and strength by quite a bit and his athletic ability at least somewhat. DeAndre Ayton is far more likely to go the way of Enes Kanter and Traw Young is far more likely to go the way of Brandon Jennings than Luka is to go the way of Tyreke Evans.

so Luka can hit the gym but Trae will never learn to shoot and Ayton will never have a better understanding of the nba game than the halfway mark of the rookie season? what makes you think that only Doncic is able to improve?

This is literally the best post in the last 6 pages. Everyone sucks but Doncic. Doncic gets criticized, but but but, he is not Evans. He hasn't peak but everyone else has or sucks.

Never said they couldn't or wouldn't get better. You're being too sensitive, stop catching hurt feelings over a simple discussion. I'm saying someone with the skill and BBIQ of Doncic isn't likely to regress like a Tyreke Evans. It's also true that Doncic's biggest weakness can be improved upon fairly easily and Trae's and DeAndre's issues are a bit more complex than that. Trae has a very slight frame and DeAndre lacks a motor and defensive instincts, which is a very big issue to have as a big. Trae's problem is impossible to overcome as you can't change bone structure and historically low IQ bigs seldom get more situational awareness as time goes on.

[Johnny Firpo]

Those comparing Doncic to Evans is wishful thinking at it's best. The kid is too skilled and too smart for that, not to mention, with an offseason or two in the weightroom with legit NBA trainers he's going to improve his size and strength by quite a bit and his athletic ability at least somewhat. DeAndre Ayton is far more likely to go the way of Enes Kanter and Traw Young is far more likely to go the way of Brandon Jennings than Luka is to go the way of Tyreke Evans.

so Luka can hit the gym but Trae will never learn to shoot and Ayton will never have a better understanding of the nba game than the halfway mark of the rookie season? what makes you think that only Doncic is able to improve?

This is literally the best post in the last 6 pages. Everyone sucks but Doncic. Doncic gets criticized, but but but, he is not Evans. He hasn't peak but everyone else has or sucks.

No, what that is, is derailing the discussion because of bad reading comprehension. Again, he didn't remotely said what spanishninja stated.

[spanishninja]

so Luka can hit the gym but Trae will never learn to shoot and Ayton will never have a better understanding of the nba game than the halfway mark of the rookie season? what makes you think that only Doncic is able to improve?

This is literally the best post in the last 6 pages. Everyone sucks but Doncic. Doncic gets criticized, but but but, he is not Evans. He hasn't peak but everyone else has or sucks.

No, what that is, is derailing the discussion because of bad reading comprehension. Again, he didn't remotely said what spanishninja stated.

saying Ayton's ceiling will be Kanter is literally saying he will not improve, as he is basically putting Kanter stats already. also, he has already shown improvement this month on aggessiveness and defense. why people think it's going to be so much more difficult to work on these flaws is beyond me. at this point in the season the only thing we can conclude is that Doncic is closest to stardom of everybody in the class.

i also never said Doncic will regress. what is happening now is that people are forgetting that most rookies (even those who become stars) these days are not nearly as nba ready as Doncic or even Ayton. trying to estimate rookie ceilings from 30 or so games is foolish at best.

[Damkac]

Let me state again.

Ayton is a fine player, maybe even a franchise player one day but he has nothing on Doncic as a prospect.

In my years of watching basketball, I've not seen a prospect like Doncic since LeBron. I think the Suns fans fail to see or realize how generational Doncic is through their rose colored glasses.

Look, I have nothing against the Suns and actually hate the Mavs as a secondary Rockets fans. However, Doncic is a league changing prospect. This doesn't mean that he will change with the league, but with good development, he legitimately has a shot at becoming the face of NBA basketball.

Sadly, I see zero such potential in Ayton (and JJJ)

I don't think I agree with that. Maybe in turns of overall skillset Luka is more polished right now but Ayton is a 7-footer and as Barkley always says, "you can't teach height".
I know a lot of casual fans don't really factor in height to "potential" but IMO it's better to have a skilled 7-footer than a skilled guard/forward in a vacuum. There are exceptions obviously (MJ & Lebron) but there's sometime very alluring to front offices about drafting an all-star big.
Last thing - Hakeem was drafted 1st overall and MJ 3rd in the same draft. I'm sure if you asked Rockets fans most of them would say they were happy with the Hakeem pick and wouldn't change it. Ayton and Luka could both turn out to be multiple-time all-stars - who will be better only time will tell but I think both teams are happy with their picks right now.

7 footers haven't won anything within the past decade. And Ayton is no Hakeem or Barkley.

Dirk? Duncan?

[TheBonzaiEffect]

This is literally the best post in the last 6 pages. Everyone sucks but Doncic. Doncic gets criticized, but but but, he is not Evans. He hasn't peak but everyone else has or sucks.

No, what that is, is derailing the discussion because of bad reading comprehension. Again, he didn't remotely said what spanishninja stated.

saying Ayton's ceiling will be Kanter is literally saying he will not improve, as he is basically putting Kanter stats already. also, he has already shown improvement this month on aggessiveness and defense. why people think it's going to be so much more difficult to work on these flaws is beyond me. at this point in the season the only thing we can conclude is that Doncic is closest to stardom of everybody in the class.

i also never said Doncic will regress. what is happening now is that people are forgetting that most rookies (even those who become stars) these days are not nearly as nba ready as Doncic or even Ayton. trying to estimate rookie ceilings from 30 or so games is foolish at best.

He didn't say Ayton's ceiling was Kanter. He said it's *more likely* Ayton regresses as a Kanter than Doncic plateaus as Evans, which is fair. Personally, I'm 99% confident neither of those things happen.

[Goudelock]

Watch on YouTube

Trae Young's shooting gets the most attention, but his passing is incredible for a PG his age.

[Ball4life32]

Watch on YouTube

Huerter looking good too. Steal at 19.

[Johnny Firpo]

I like Huerter, I think he can be a very good player in this league.

[stilldropin20]

no rookie has played this well since 1980 when Bird and Magic both had mature games that allowed their teams to win. Not even lebron. Not MJ.

This is very very very rare!! To have the stats. the efficiency. AND the wins due to HIS clutch play in close games.

Once DSJ, Wes, and barnes leanr their roles and how to play off Doncic better this team should get back to winning with Doncic as its closer.

[spanishninja]

No, what that is, is derailing the discussion because of bad reading comprehension. Again, he didn't remotely said what spanishninja stated.

saying Ayton's ceiling will be Kanter is literally saying he will not improve, as he is basically putting Kanter stats already. also, he has already shown improvement this month on aggessiveness and defense. why people think it's going to be so much more difficult to work on these flaws is beyond me. at this point in the season the only thing we can conclude is that Doncic is closest to stardom of everybody in the class.

i also never said Doncic will regress. what is happening now is that people are forgetting that most rookies (even those who become stars) these days are not nearly as nba ready as Doncic or even Ayton. trying to estimate rookie ceilings from 30 or so games is foolish at best.

He didn't say Ayton's ceiling was Kanter. He said it's *more likely* Ayton regresses as a Kanter than Doncic plateaus as Evans, which is fair. Personally, I'm 99% confident neither of those things happen.

i agree with that last sentence for sure. but the point with the Doncic/Ayton debate so far is that people really have a tendency to not just support their candidate but also knock the other one down. that's senseless. even if Doncic becomes the next Lebron, it can happen in the same universe as one where Ayton is a superstar too. and so far, the sky is the limit for both these guys based on their current trajectory.

if Ayton remains a 16/10 guy with no defense by year 4, then we have reason to question his potential. but at this point there is nothing close to an indication that this is his future.