NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[playa-hater]

As a Boston and Tatum fan I can still be totally unbiased. Joker should be a clear #1. Has there ever been a player that can totally dominate a game without dominating the ball so much. He looks to pass first and right away. If you are a player you would excel with this type of teammate. If you are with Luka you stand/watch or do pull up jump shots. But Joker can step up and SCORE.. SHOOTING OVER 60% is just silly. This is not a just only dunk center, but scores from all over.

As far as Tatum goes, it seems the biggest knock on Tatum is he has J Brown.. If J Brown misses any significant time (He might miss 1-2 weeks) and Boston still keeps on winning, that argument will be weakened greatly. and Before anyone claims Boston has such a good team, should be reminded on how much better Boston is with Tatum on the court vs when sitting. That's even better than the great Joker himself. (haven't checked but probably still #1 by a country mile)

Again I say, other than Giannis, Tatum is the only great 2 way player on this MVP list. Why defense is always so underappreciated when concerning MVPs always boggles my mind.

[bradybunch]

Watch on YouTube

Really cool of Ja. Man two adults stealing a kid's basketball.......pretty damn low

Okay, I've seen enough.

Ja the real MVP.

[_NoMas]

Around the mid-season mark I have it like this:

1. Jokic
2. Luka
--
3. Durant
4. Tatum
--
5. Embiid
6. Giannis
7. Mitchell
8. Ja

Curry, Dame, Butler, AD and LeBron could be in the conversation based on their level of play but they've all missed a good chunk of time already, while all their teams are also in the play-in or entirely out of the play-offs.

Surely games missed… and wins contributed has to be a big part of the discussion too. I can’t see how Embiid is 5th when he’s 18-12

[losmi]

As a Boston and Tatum fan I can still be totally unbiased. Joker should be a clear #1. Has there ever been a player that can totally dominate a game without dominating the ball so much. He looks to pass first and right away. If you are a player you would excel with this type of teammate. If you are with Luka you stand/watch or do pull up jump shots. But Joker can step up and SCORE.. SHOOTING OVER 60% is just silly. This is not a just only dunk center, but scores from all over.

As far as Tatum goes, it seems the biggest knock on Tatum is he has J Brown.. If J Brown misses any significant time (He might miss 1-2 weeks) and Boston still keeps on winning, that argument will be weakened greatly. and Before anyone claims Boston has such a good team, should be reminded on how much better Boston is with Tatum on the court vs when sitting. That's even better than the great Joker himself. (haven't checked but probably still #1 by a country mile)

Again I say, other than Giannis, Tatum is the only great 2 way player on this MVP list. Why defense is always so underappreciated when concerning MVPs always boggles my mind.

Tatum On-Off: +8.6
Jokic On-Off: +21.4

[Chessboxer]

2 chips and finals MVPs maybe. I feel he needs 3 chips though

Read on Twitter

The ultimate question is, will he be held to the same standards as other multiple MVP award winners if he doesn't win? Because despite him having the #1 seed,a favorite to win a 3rd consecutive MVP, and some calling him the best player in the league, there is literally no pressure at all for him to win a title. Unlike Lebron, Giannis, or even Durant to a lesser extent(1 MVP).

[Colbinii]

As a Boston and Tatum fan I can still be totally unbiased. Joker should be a clear #1. Has there ever been a player that can totally dominate a game without dominating the ball so much. He looks to pass first and right away. If you are a player you would excel with this type of teammate. If you are with Luka you stand/watch or do pull up jump shots. But Joker can step up and SCORE.. SHOOTING OVER 60% is just silly. This is not a just only dunk center, but scores from all over.

As far as Tatum goes, it seems the biggest knock on Tatum is he has J Brown.. If J Brown misses any significant time (He might miss 1-2 weeks) and Boston still keeps on winning, that argument will be weakened greatly. and Before anyone claims Boston has such a good team, should be reminded on how much better Boston is with Tatum on the court vs when sitting. That's even better than the great Joker himself. (haven't checked but probably still #1 by a country mile)

Again I say, other than Giannis, Tatum is the only great 2 way player on this MVP list. Why defense is always so underappreciated when concerning MVPs always boggles my mind.

Tatum On-Off: +8.6
Jokic On-Off: +21.4

To Add:

The Nuggets with Jokic are +11.3 while the Celtics with Tatum are +8.5.

So the Nuggets are better with Jokic than the Celtics are with Tatum.

[AleksandarN]

2 chips and finals MVPs maybe. I feel he needs 3 chips though

Read on Twitter

The ultimate question is, will he be held to the same standards as other multiple MVP award winners if he doesn't win? Because despite him having the #1 seed,a favorite to win a 3rd consecutive MVP, and some calling him the best player in the league, there is literally no pressure at all for him to win a title. Unlike Lebron, Giannis, or even Durant to a lesser extent(1 MVP).

If he wants to be an all time great yes. If you watched the interview I posted he doesn’t care for mvps and not chasing stats he wants to win period. Where as other players are campaigning for the Mvp. He is not. He feels the pressure of winning because he puts it on himself

[nikster]

2 chips and finals MVPs maybe. I feel he needs 3 chips though

Read on Twitter

The ultimate question is, will he be held to the same standards as other multiple MVP award winners if he doesn't win? Because despite him having the #1 seed,a favorite to win a 3rd consecutive MVP, and some calling him the best player in the league, there is literally no pressure at all for him to win a title. Unlike Lebron, Giannis, or even Durant to a lesser extent(1 MVP).

It will happen eventually. This is only his 3rd MVP type season, and will be the first one he has a healthy and competent supporting cast. Also he played amazing as an individual and didnt really have any red flags those 2 years. Lebron had his finals performance to shake off and Giannis had the narrative of the wall being able to slow him down. We will start hear a lot of question marks about Jokic this off season if he doesnt win.

[NBA4Lyfe]

2 chips and finals MVPs maybe. I feel he needs 3 chips though

Read on Twitter

The ultimate question is, will he be held to the same standards as other multiple MVP award winners if he doesn't win? Because despite him having the #1 seed,a favorite to win a 3rd consecutive MVP, and some calling him the best player in the league, there is literally no pressure at all for him to win a title. Unlike Lebron, Giannis, or even Durant to a lesser extent(1 MVP).

I dont want to get into the obvious other factors of why voters seem to overlook jokics playoffs struggles and continue to vote for him for mvp when for years the playoffs was the main reason why the same said voters didnt vote for james harden multiple times for mvp when he should have 3 easily under the same criteria they are using to give it to jokic

its all a moot point anyway draymond has already alluded to this fact the problem on one of his podcasts, which is why he and stephen a smith had a back and forth. And the players are more than likely going to get those voting priveldges back during the next cba agreement

[Jadoogar]

2 chips and finals MVPs maybe. I feel he needs 3 chips though

Read on Twitter

The ultimate question is, will he be held to the same standards as other multiple MVP award winners if he doesn't win? Because despite him having the #1 seed,a favorite to win a 3rd consecutive MVP, and some calling him the best player in the league, there is literally no pressure at all for him to win a title. Unlike Lebron, Giannis, or even Durant to a lesser extent(1 MVP).

I disagree, if the nuggets go into the playoffs with a healthy team and they don't make the conference finals at a minimum, Jokic is going to be heavily criticized. The last time the Nuggets were healthy for the playoffs was the bubble season where they upset the presumptive favourites in the Clippers and went to the conference finals. These last 2 playoffs, he's been missing his #2 option or both his #2 and #3 options.

[Wolfgang630]

Joker will finally be heavily criticized if they don’t go far. This is the first time people can really criticize him because he should be having a fully healthy team going into the playoffs.

[Dutchball97]

Around the mid-season mark I have it like this:

1. Jokic
2. Luka
--
3. Durant
4. Tatum
--
5. Embiid
6. Giannis
7. Mitchell
8. Ja

Curry, Dame, Butler, AD and LeBron could be in the conversation based on their level of play but they've all missed a good chunk of time already, while all their teams are also in the play-in or entirely out of the play-offs.

Surely games missed… and wins contributed has to be a big part of the discussion too. I can’t see how Embiid is 5th when he’s 18-12

Embiid is 8th in EPM's estimated wins added, 10th in WS, 8th in VORP and 6th in RAPTOR WAR. He's missed time but he's still played enough to be regarded as at least top 10 in terms of added value for this season by the stats. Meanwhile on a per minute he's 3rd in EPM (behind Jokic and Luka), 4th in BPM (behind Jokic, Luka and Curry), 4th in WS/48 (behind Jokic, AD and Luka), 4th in PER (Jokic, AD and Luka again) and 5th in RAPTOR (Jokic, Luka, AD and Curry). Sounds like a decent top 5 case to me.

[LessEyeTest]

2 chips and finals MVPs maybe. I feel he needs 3 chips though

Read on Twitter

The ultimate question is, will he be held to the same standards as other multiple MVP award winners if he doesn't win? Because despite him having the #1 seed,a favorite to win a 3rd consecutive MVP, and some calling him the best player in the league, there is literally no pressure at all for him to win a title. Unlike Lebron, Giannis, or even Durant to a lesser extent(1 MVP).

I dont want to get into the obvious other factors of why voters seem to overlook jokics playoffs struggles and continue to vote for him for mvp when for years the playoffs was the main reason why the same said voters didnt vote for james harden multiple times for mvp when he should have 3 easily under the same criteria they are using to give it to jokic

its all a moot point anyway draymond has already alluded to this fact the problem on one of his podcasts, which is why he and stephen a smith had a back and forth. And the players are more than likely going to get those voting priveldges back during the next cba agreement

We’re really gonna play the race card? Lol

Jokic is not just setting new records, he’s completely shattering advanced metrics. He deserves to be the unanimous MVP. F*** what race baiting, “woke” prima Donnas think.

[Infinite Llamas]

Lol at the idea that voters want to give Jokic the award based on race…because at the end of the day, he’s doughy, traditionally unathletic, doesn’t slam it home and block shots into the stands and his apathy to the award is a slap in the face to their power.

They have myriad reasons not to vote for him but they still do nonetheless because there’s simply no one in the league more important to the success of their team. And they vote with gritted teeth but I don’t think they are too happy about it. Skin color be damned.

[_NoMas]

Around the mid-season mark I have it like this:

1. Jokic
2. Luka
--
3. Durant
4. Tatum
--
5. Embiid
6. Giannis
7. Mitchell
8. Ja

Curry, Dame, Butler, AD and LeBron could be in the conversation based on their level of play but they've all missed a good chunk of time already, while all their teams are also in the play-in or entirely out of the play-offs.

Surely games missed… and wins contributed has to be a big part of the discussion too. I can’t see how Embiid is 5th when he’s 18-12

Embiid is 8th in EPM's estimated wins added, 10th in WS, 8th in VORP and 6th in RAPTOR WAR. He's missed time but he's still played enough to be regarded as at least top 10 in terms of added value for this season by the stats. Meanwhile on a per minute he's 3rd in EPM (behind Jokic and Luka), 4th in BPM (behind Jokic, Luka and Curry), 4th in WS/48 (behind Jokic, AD and Luka), 4th in PER (Jokic, AD and Luka again) and 5th in RAPTOR (Jokic, Luka, AD and Curry). Sounds like a decent top 5 case to me.

At a certain point we have to factor in missed time being a pretty big advantage in terms of maintaining efficiency, advanced stats etc. I value the guys who show up day in day out, and play through injuries and knocks.

I get the advanced stats are part of it… but I’ll take Donovan Mitchell’s 25-13 record (7 more wins at the halfway mark!) whilst averaging 29 a game on nearly 50/40/90 shooting splits - not to mention Luka, Jokic, Tatum who I think all have better claims. Giannis rounds up my top 5, playing with a worse supporting cast and with a better team record (5 more wins then Embiid).

For me availability and wins are key in an MVP race. So, whilst for the purposes of an all star game I’d vote Embiid over Tatum for a starting front court spot (as I value wins/ availability as slightly less important for that vote), it absolutely should count for the MVP debate.

[Wolfgang630]

Joker isn’t the type of white guy they want to prop up lol. This doesn’t have to do with race.

[AussieBuck]

If you're that kind of race invested white guy, I don't think you're head over heels for a Slav.

[playa-hater]

As a Boston and Tatum fan I can still be totally unbiased. Joker should be a clear #1. Has there ever been a player that can totally dominate a game without dominating the ball so much. He looks to pass first and right away. If you are a player you would excel with this type of teammate. If you are with Luka you stand/watch or do pull up jump shots. But Joker can step up and SCORE.. SHOOTING OVER 60% is just silly. This is not a just only dunk center, but scores from all over.

As far as Tatum goes, it seems the biggest knock on Tatum is he has J Brown.. If J Brown misses any significant time (He might miss 1-2 weeks) and Boston still keeps on winning, that argument will be weakened greatly. and Before anyone claims Boston has such a good team, should be reminded on how much better Boston is with Tatum on the court vs when sitting. That's even better than the great Joker himself. (haven't checked but probably still #1 by a country mile)

Again I say, other than Giannis, Tatum is the only great 2 way player on this MVP list. Why defense is always so underappreciated when concerning MVPs always boggles my mind.

Tatum On-Off: +8.6
Jokic On-Off: +21.4

To Add:

The Nuggets with Jokic are +11.3 while the Celtics with Tatum are +8.5.

So the Nuggets are better with Jokic than the Celtics are with Tatum.

Well to be honest I think Tatum was leading heavy all year long but maybe The Joker finally caught him And passed him.. I wasn't sure..

But I don't need to apologize since I did say Joker is a clear cut MVP at this point..

[scrabbarista]

repost:

If you see everything in terms of race, you'll end up blind to 90% of what's actually going on in the world.

[DaGawd]

jalen brunson is in the mix