RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[michaelm]

LeBron is a much better player than Curry, so no he can’t.

Jordan is a much better player than Lebron.

I also do think that Curry has a bigger impact on the offensive flow of his team.

No he’s not, and if he is, you’re not the one to make an argument for it. But that’s irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

While I do ultimately agree that Curry had a bigger offensive impact, the gap between them on the defensive end is massive to the point where it’s not even a conversation. Not to mention, LeBron outplayed Steph in three of the four finals they met in, the one exception only really occurring because LeBron fractured his shooting hand after the first game. There’s no argument whatsoever for Curry over either player.

Whereas Curry’s MCL injury in 2016 doesn’t count of course. Cherry picking would not appear to be the exclusive preserve (so to speak) of those who disagree with you.

Of course LeBron is better than Curry defensively and in other aspects of the game, but as with Jordan whom he also exceeds in some aspects as well how good a team can be built around him ? No team as good as the 1997 Bulls or 2017 Warriors. And all of the GSW teams whom Curry led to titles were highly rated defensively.

[michaelm]

That’s great and all, but it’s not enough to give Curry a case for GOAT

Actually you are very wrong. Indeed it is one of the better arguments for Curry. Your quick dismissal is yet another example of trying to call white black and up down.

What is one of the things one might ask of the greatest player ever? What is one of the most basic yet difficult tests each candidate player usually is faced with?

To turn around a bad team.

Curry led a team that finished last in the league to a championship in two seasons. Name the other player who can claim to have done that.

To lead a team to a championship is a basic test of greatness. To lead a bottom-dwelling team to a championship is a test of even higher difficulty. Curry's accomplishment in this regard is peerless. Just one of the many peerless things he has done. That is why the appellation "greatest" must be considered.

Except the Warriors had injuries to major players and purposely tanked. This argument holds no weight and is another example of you continuing to cherry pick to ignore context.

Yes, they were just waiting for all those players from the 2017 and 2018 title teams to come back. Klay Thompson who returned at the end of the regular season was of course unaffected by the intervening ACL tear and Achilles’ tendon tear. Andrew Wiggins whom they traded for was hardly widely recognised as a top 5 player and Poole whom they had drafted late in the first round played many games in the G league the preceding season. Fully healthy from 2018 were basically Curry himself, Green and Looney whom they had re-signed cheap because no other team wanted him.

[Iwasawitness]

Jordan is a much better player than Lebron.

I also do think that Curry has a bigger impact on the offensive flow of his team.

No he’s not, and if he is, you’re not the one to make an argument for it. But that’s irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

While I do ultimately agree that Curry had a bigger offensive impact, the gap between them on the defensive end is massive to the point where it’s not even a conversation. Not to mention, LeBron outplayed Steph in three of the four finals they met in, the one exception only really occurring because LeBron fractured his shooting hand after the first game. There’s no argument whatsoever for Curry over either player.

Whereas Curry’s MCL injury in 2016 doesn’t count of course. Cherry picking would not appear to be the exclusive preserve (so to speak) of those who disagree with you.

Of course LeBron is better than Curry defensively and in other aspects of the game, but as with Jordan whom he also exceeds in some aspects as well how good a team can be built around him ? No team as good as the 1997 Bulls or 2017 Warriors. And all of the GSW teams whom Curry led to titles were highly rated defensively.

I think fatigue had a lot more to do with Curry’s finals performance than a minor sprain that both he and Kerr were downplaying at the time. In fact if memory serves me correctly, Curry himself said that his knee was fine (which is hilarious because Kerr would go on to say in later years that Curry wasn’t 100%, even though he himself also said at the time that Curry was healthy. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/15728738/golden-state-warriors-coach-steve-kerr-denies-steph-curry-injured).

Sounds more like a convenient excuse to me than anything else at this point.

[lessthanjake]

I actually think the 2022 Warriors supporting cast was basically on par with most title teams. 3 things combined that made it underrated
1. it was heavily defensively slanted
2. It didn’t have a clear 2nd star and was built on depth
3. It was built on a lot players having career years. GP2, Poole, Otto Porter Jr. Wiggins

I think those three things are generally true, but I don’t think that that is enough to make it on par with most title teams. There is a reason why almost every title team has a clear 2nd star—it’s very hard for non-stars to create good offense in the playoffs, and relying on one guy to break down playoff defenses makes things very difficult. And, for reference, if you take a look at the EPM for the second-best above-average-minutes player on each title-winning team, it becomes pretty clear that the 2022 Warriors did not have any standout second-best player. Indeed, there’s no title-winning team since the EPM stat started in 2022 that had a second-best reasonably-high-minutes player with a lower EPM than the 2022 Warriors. Only the 2003 Spurs are tied in that regard. And I don’t think that this is a relic of something weird with the stat—rather, the 2022 Warriors simply did not have another highly impactful player besides Steph. And that’s even accounting for defense.

I do think it’s true that the team was deep with players who were playing well that year. But I just don’t think that’s enough to say the supporting cast was on par with most title teams. I think the same could be said of any title team that is generally regarded as having a relatively weak supporting cast (i.e. teams like the 2011 Mavs, 1994 Rockets, etc.). If you have a team without a second star and you aren’t at all deep with other solid players, then you’re not going to win a title at all, let alone be up there with most title teams. I also think it’s perhaps telling that most of the guys you listed have really never been particularly positively impactful players outside of playing with Steph. Maybe that’s just a coincidence, but I’m hesitant to say that these guys having career years is a totally independent factor.

[lessthanjake]

LeBron is a much better player than Curry, so no he can’t.

Jordan is a much better player than Lebron.

I also do think that Curry has a bigger impact on the offensive flow of his team.

No he’s not, and if he is, you’re not the one to make an argument for it. But that’s irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

While I do ultimately agree that Curry had a bigger offensive impact, the gap between them on the defensive end is massive to the point where it’s not even a conversation. Not to mention, LeBron outplayed Steph in three of the four finals they met in, the one exception only really occurring because LeBron fractured his shooting hand after the first game. There’s no argument whatsoever for Curry over either player.

Did LeBron outplay Steph in three of the four Finals? Which ones are you saying LeBron outplayed Steph in? Given that you mention fracturing his shooting hand after the first game, I assume you’re saying Steph outplayed LeBron in the 2018 Finals. And I think we can agree LeBron outplayed Steph in the 2016 Finals. But what about the others? I really don’t think LeBron outplayed Steph in the 2015 Finals. Obviously the degree of difficulty for LeBron was high due to injuries on his team, but he had a 47.7% TS%. He had to take on a huge volume, but the result was genuinely not very good. To me, Steph outplayed LeBron in that series. LeBron was actually just pretty off that entire playoffs—which we can see from him having a negative opponent-relative TS% in every series in those playoffs. As for 2017, I think it’s certainly a totally reasonable view to say LeBron outplayed Steph in those Finals, but at the same time Steph played great and his team dominated perhaps LeBron’s best team ever (and we know Steph was incredibly impactful in terms of how good that Warriors team was) so I really don’t see that series cutting against a case for Steph.

Which basically leaves us with each one of them outplaying the other in two Finals, with one of the Finals that Steph was “outplayed” being a series where Steph nevertheless played great and easily won the Finals. Which leaves any negative argument regarding Steph along these lines basically just resting on 2016 (in which Steph was coming off a significant in-playoffs injury).

[michaelm]

No he’s not, and if he is, you’re not the one to make an argument for it. But that’s irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

While I do ultimately agree that Curry had a bigger offensive impact, the gap between them on the defensive end is massive to the point where it’s not even a conversation. Not to mention, LeBron outplayed Steph in three of the four finals they met in, the one exception only really occurring because LeBron fractured his shooting hand after the first game. There’s no argument whatsoever for Curry over either player.

Whereas Curry’s MCL injury in 2016 doesn’t count of course. Cherry picking would not appear to be the exclusive preserve (so to speak) of those who disagree with you.

Of course LeBron is better than Curry defensively and in other aspects of the game, but as with Jordan whom he also exceeds in some aspects as well how good a team can be built around him ? No team as good as the 1997 Bulls or 2017 Warriors. And all of the GSW teams whom Curry led to titles were highly rated defensively.

I think fatigue had a lot more to do with Curry’s finals performance than a minor sprain that both he and Kerr were downplaying at the time. In fact if memory serves me correctly, Curry himself said that his knee was fine (which is hilarious because Kerr would go on to say in later years that Curry wasn’t 100%, even though he himself also said at the time that Curry was healthy. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/15728738/golden-state-warriors-coach-steve-kerr-denies-steph-curry-injured).

Sounds more like a convenient excuse to me than anything else at this point.

So he missed two and a half weeks of the play-offs just to have a pre-prepared excuse ?. And sure they are going to tell the opposition he is not fully healthy, just as LeBron’s hand injury was not disclosed. Injuries are part of the sport, Curry himself made no excuses btw, and I only brought this up to point out your own cherry picking.

[lessthanjake]

No he’s not, and if he is, you’re not the one to make an argument for it. But that’s irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

While I do ultimately agree that Curry had a bigger offensive impact, the gap between them on the defensive end is massive to the point where it’s not even a conversation. Not to mention, LeBron outplayed Steph in three of the four finals they met in, the one exception only really occurring because LeBron fractured his shooting hand after the first game. There’s no argument whatsoever for Curry over either player.

Whereas Curry’s MCL injury in 2016 doesn’t count of course. Cherry picking would not appear to be the exclusive preserve (so to speak) of those who disagree with you.

Of course LeBron is better than Curry defensively and in other aspects of the game, but as with Jordan whom he also exceeds in some aspects as well how good a team can be built around him ? No team as good as the 1997 Bulls or 2017 Warriors. And all of the GSW teams whom Curry led to titles were highly rated defensively.

I think fatigue had a lot more to do with Curry’s finals performance than a minor sprain that both he and Kerr were downplaying at the time. In fact if memory serves me correctly, Curry himself said that his knee was fine (which is hilarious because Kerr would go on to say in later years that Curry wasn’t 100%, even though he himself also said at the time that Curry was healthy. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/15728738/golden-state-warriors-coach-steve-kerr-denies-steph-curry-injured).

Sounds more like a convenient excuse to me than anything else at this point.

I think people often fail to realize that teams/players have a huge incentive to lie about the severity of an injury, particularly in the playoffs. Regardless of how significant an injury is, if you’re going to be playing you typically want the other team to think the injury is fine. This is because you don’t want to give them confidence, you don’t want them to do things to mess with your injury, and you want them to gameplan as if you’re fine (i.e. you want them to keep giving up stuff that they’d give up if you were healthy). And since teams don’t communicate directly with other teams, the way they run this sort of psy-op is through statements to the media. Often, fans take these statements at face value, without realizing that anything a team is saying to the media about a player’s injury in the playoffs is calculated specifically to gain as much of a strategic advantage as reasonably possible.

[michaelm]

I actually think the 2022 Warriors supporting cast was basically on par with most title teams. 3 things combined that made it underrated
1. it was heavily defensively slanted
2. It didn’t have a clear 2nd star and was built on depth
3. It was built on a lot players having career years. GP2, Poole, Otto Porter Jr. Wiggins

I think those three things are generally true, but I don’t think that that is enough to make it on par with most title teams. There is a reason why almost every title team has a clear 2nd star—it’s very hard for non-stars to create good offense in the playoffs, and relying on one guy to break down playoff defenses makes things very difficult. And, for reference, if you take a look at the EPM for the second-best above-average-minutes player on each title-winning team, it becomes pretty clear that the 2022 Warriors did not have any standout second-best player. Indeed, there’s no title-winning team since the EPM stat started in 2022 that had a second-best player with a lower EPM than the 2022 Warriors. Only the 2003 Spurs are tied in that regard. And I don’t think that this is a relic of something weird with the stat—rather, the 2022 Warriors simply did not have another highly impactful player besides Steph. And that’s even accounting for defense.

I do think it’s true that the team was deep with players who were playing well that year. But I just don’t think that’s enough to say the supporting cast was on par with most title teams. I think the same could be said of any title team that is generally regarded as having a relatively weak supporting cast (i.e. teams like the 2011 Mavs, 1994 Rockets, etc.). If you have a team without a second star and you aren’t at all deep with other solid players, then you’re not going to win a title at all, let alone be up there with most title teams. I also think it’s perhaps telling that most of the guys you listed have really never been particularly positively impactful players outside of playing with Steph. Maybe that’s just a coincidence, but I’m hesitant to say that these guys having career years is a totally independent factor.

I love that team and those players, and Warrior GM over egged the pudding as he does, but the point is that team was almost totally re-built around Curry, literally no one else in the NBA wanted Looney or GP11, Wiggins was much derided when at the Timberwolves, and OPJ who was indeed excellent that year was regarded as crocked and was not in great demand elsewhere either.

[Special_Puppy]

I actually think the 2022 Warriors supporting cast was basically on par with most title teams. 3 things combined that made it underrated
1. it was heavily defensively slanted
2. It didn’t have a clear 2nd star and was built on depth
3. It was built on a lot players having career years. GP2, Poole, Otto Porter Jr. Wiggins

And it just so happens they had these career years within a couple of first playing with Steph.
And it just so happens the same could have been said of Steph's first championship team.
And it just so happens the 2022 title came just a couple of years removed from the Warriors finishing dead last in the league.

Poole was on the Warriors in 2021+2023 and was drastically better in 2022 than the surrounding years. Same thing with Wiggins albeit to a much lesser degree. 2022 was one of the only years where Otto Porter Jr. and Gary Payton 2 were actually healthy. So while you could credit Steph for Otto Porter Jr. and Gary Payton 2 having career years, health is probably a more likely factor

[EmpireFalls]

Whereas Curry’s MCL injury in 2016 doesn’t count of course. Cherry picking would not appear to be the exclusive preserve (so to speak) of those who disagree with you.

Of course LeBron is better than Curry defensively and in other aspects of the game, but as with Jordan whom he also exceeds in some aspects as well how good a team can be built around him ? No team as good as the 1997 Bulls or 2017 Warriors. And all of the GSW teams whom Curry led to titles were highly rated defensively.

I think fatigue had a lot more to do with Curry’s finals performance than a minor sprain that both he and Kerr were downplaying at the time. In fact if memory serves me correctly, Curry himself said that his knee was fine (which is hilarious because Kerr would go on to say in later years that Curry wasn’t 100%, even though he himself also said at the time that Curry was healthy. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/15728738/golden-state-warriors-coach-steve-kerr-denies-steph-curry-injured).

Sounds more like a convenient excuse to me than anything else at this point.

I think people often fail to realize that teams/players have a huge incentive to lie about the severity of an injury, particularly in the playoffs. Regardless of how significant an injury is, if you’re going to be playing you typically want the other team to think the injury is fine. This is because you don’t want to give them confidence, you don’t want them to do things to mess with your injury, and you want them to gameplan as if you’re fine (i.e. you want them to keep giving up stuff that they’d give up if you were healthy). And since teams don’t communicate directly with other teams, the way they run this sort of psy-op is through statements to the media. Often, fans take these statements at face value, without realizing that anything a team is saying to the media about a player’s injury in the playoffs is calculated specifically to gain as much of a strategic advantage as reasonably possible.

The idea of a Steph Curry GOAT case is delusional, but to make one centering around being UNLUCKY with injury is one of the most hilarious statements ever written on the internet.

2015 - Jrue Holiday injured
Conley and Allen injured
Kyrie and Love injured and miss series

2017 - Kawhi injury (no Parker either)

2018 - CP3 hamstring injury when up 3-2

2022 - Murray/Porter/nearly everyone injured
Ja Morant injury midway through series
Tatum playing through shoulder and wrist injuries (just as detrimental to his performance as the knee was in 2016)

The Warriors do not have a single win without seeing crucial stars on other teams injured.

If you want to call Curry the GOAT there are ways to do it, but basing it off of him being oh so unlucky with injury? Come on.

2019 is the one season where he truly was unlucky, and that shouldn’t be ignored, but it left him in the exact situation that the Cavs were in during the 2015 series, so it cancels out.

[lessthanjake]

I think fatigue had a lot more to do with Curry’s finals performance than a minor sprain that both he and Kerr were downplaying at the time. In fact if memory serves me correctly, Curry himself said that his knee was fine (which is hilarious because Kerr would go on to say in later years that Curry wasn’t 100%, even though he himself also said at the time that Curry was healthy. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/15728738/golden-state-warriors-coach-steve-kerr-denies-steph-curry-injured).

Sounds more like a convenient excuse to me than anything else at this point.

I think people often fail to realize that teams/players have a huge incentive to lie about the severity of an injury, particularly in the playoffs. Regardless of how significant an injury is, if you’re going to be playing you typically want the other team to think the injury is fine. This is because you don’t want to give them confidence, you don’t want them to do things to mess with your injury, and you want them to gameplan as if you’re fine (i.e. you want them to keep giving up stuff that they’d give up if you were healthy). And since teams don’t communicate directly with other teams, the way they run this sort of psy-op is through statements to the media. Often, fans take these statements at face value, without realizing that anything a team is saying to the media about a player’s injury in the playoffs is calculated specifically to gain as much of a strategic advantage as reasonably possible.

The idea of a Steph Curry GOAT case is delusional, but to make one centering around being UNLUCKY with injury is one of the most hilarious statements ever written on the internet.

2015 - Jrue Holiday injured
Conley and Allen injured
Kyrie and Love injured and miss series

2017 - Kawhi injury (no Parker either)

2018 - CP3 hamstring injury when up 3-2

2022 - Murray/Porter/nearly everyone injured
Ja Morant injury midway through series
Tatum playing through shoulder and wrist injuries (just as detrimental to his performance as the knee was in 2016)

The Warriors do not have a single win without seeing crucial stars on other teams injured.

If you want to call Curry the GOAT there are ways to do it, but basing it off of him being oh so unlucky with injury? Come on.

2019 is the one season where he truly was unlucky, and that shouldn’t be ignored, but it left him in the exact situation that the Cavs were in during the 2015 series, so it cancels out.

Umm…this is a complete straw man. You should really read the posts I’ve just made in this thread. In fact, I said the following here yesterday in a long post I made after someone else was making a GOAT case for Steph: “Where I ultimately come down on this is that I think Steph probably needs another title to have a GOAT case that doesn’t require a lot of squinting.” So yeah, not making a GOAT case for Steph. I actually wrote a very long post that ultimately argued the opposite. And I certainly never made any post that argued anything about injury luck. There was discussion specifically about comparing Steph’s and LeBron’s Finals performances in the finals they faced each other, and I said that Steph was definitely not as good in the 2016 Finals but briefly noted that he was coming off an in-playoffs injury. The post you quoted was a response to someone suggesting that the Warriors saying Steph was fine at the time meant he definitely was fine. I think teams lie about injuries in the playoffs all the time, and frankly they’d be stupid not to. But that discussion says absolutely nothing about whether Steph was lucky or not with injuries in general. It’s just part of a very specific discussion about comparing those 2015-2018 Finals performances. So yeah, I don’t really think this response to my post makes sense.

[Iwasawitness]

Jordan is a much better player than Lebron.

I also do think that Curry has a bigger impact on the offensive flow of his team.

No he’s not, and if he is, you’re not the one to make an argument for it. But that’s irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

While I do ultimately agree that Curry had a bigger offensive impact, the gap between them on the defensive end is massive to the point where it’s not even a conversation. Not to mention, LeBron outplayed Steph in three of the four finals they met in, the one exception only really occurring because LeBron fractured his shooting hand after the first game. There’s no argument whatsoever for Curry over either player.

Did LeBron outplay Steph in three of the four Finals? Which ones are you saying LeBron outplayed Steph in? Given that you mention fracturing his shooting hand after the first game, I assume you’re saying Steph outplayed LeBron in the 2018 Finals. And I think we can agree LeBron outplayed Steph in the 2016 Finals. But what about the others? I really don’t think LeBron outplayed Steph in the 2015 Finals. Obviously the degree of difficulty for LeBron was high due to injuries on his team, but he had a 47.7% TS%. He had to take on a huge volume, but the result was genuinely not very good. To me, Steph outplayed LeBron in that series. LeBron was actually just pretty off that entire playoffs—which we can see from him having a negative opponent-relative TS% in every series in those playoffs. As for 2017, I think it’s certainly a totally reasonable view to say LeBron outplayed Steph in those Finals, but at the same time Steph played great and his team dominated perhaps LeBron’s best team ever (and we know Steph was incredibly impactful in terms of how good that Warriors team was) so I really don’t see that series cutting against a case for Steph.

Which basically leaves us with each one of them outplaying the other in two Finals, with one of the Finals that Steph was “outplayed” being a series where Steph nevertheless played great and easily won the Finals. Which leaves any negative argument regarding Steph along these lines basically just resting on 2016 (in which Steph was coming off a significant in-playoffs injury).

You have it correct... 2015-2017 with 2018 being the only exception where I truly believe Curry outplayed LeBron. And again, that's only because of LeBron's hand fracture.

I am actually one of the few people who think LeBron's 2015 Finals performance is overrated. I do recognize the flaws in how he played in that series and the terrible shooting percentages. But at the same time, we can't ignore the circumstances he was playing under. He was up against an elite defensive team with multiple all team worthy players while having little spacing to work with. LeBron had to spend a large majority of that series forcing the issue and more often than not, it didn't work out. But he still managed to carry a heavily depleted Cavaliers team, put them in a position to succeed, and I like his all around impact more than what Curry provided, who I think actually had an underrated 2015 Finals series (people act like he was terrible all series but in reality he had one really bad game, and that was game 2).

You actually mentioned that LeBron looked like he was struggling throughout the 2015 playoffs... I think him playing heavy minutes over and over again has something to do with that.

We're in agreement on 2016.

And yes, in 2017 I think LeBron also outplayed Curry. Both were pretty awful defensively in this series, so it really just comes down to who you think had a great impact on the offensive end. Curry drew a great deal of defensive pressure from Cleveland as they consistently double teamed him and tried to limit his production to the best of their ability. The only problem is... they couldn't really slow down LeBron either. And he did a good job running the Cleveland offense that, apart from game 1, had its way with the GS defense (only problem is... their defense was so bad that they couldn't slow down the GS offense).

Side note, I will never understand how anyone can claim this team was LeBron's best one. I know you're saying it's just arguable but in reality I don't think they should even be in the conversation. If you are pathetically bad at one end of the floor, you don't get consideration.

[lessthanjake]

No he’s not, and if he is, you’re not the one to make an argument for it. But that’s irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

While I do ultimately agree that Curry had a bigger offensive impact, the gap between them on the defensive end is massive to the point where it’s not even a conversation. Not to mention, LeBron outplayed Steph in three of the four finals they met in, the one exception only really occurring because LeBron fractured his shooting hand after the first game. There’s no argument whatsoever for Curry over either player.

Did LeBron outplay Steph in three of the four Finals? Which ones are you saying LeBron outplayed Steph in? Given that you mention fracturing his shooting hand after the first game, I assume you’re saying Steph outplayed LeBron in the 2018 Finals. And I think we can agree LeBron outplayed Steph in the 2016 Finals. But what about the others? I really don’t think LeBron outplayed Steph in the 2015 Finals. Obviously the degree of difficulty for LeBron was high due to injuries on his team, but he had a 47.7% TS%. He had to take on a huge volume, but the result was genuinely not very good. To me, Steph outplayed LeBron in that series. LeBron was actually just pretty off that entire playoffs—which we can see from him having a negative opponent-relative TS% in every series in those playoffs. As for 2017, I think it’s certainly a totally reasonable view to say LeBron outplayed Steph in those Finals, but at the same time Steph played great and his team dominated perhaps LeBron’s best team ever (and we know Steph was incredibly impactful in terms of how good that Warriors team was) so I really don’t see that series cutting against a case for Steph.

Which basically leaves us with each one of them outplaying the other in two Finals, with one of the Finals that Steph was “outplayed” being a series where Steph nevertheless played great and easily won the Finals. Which leaves any negative argument regarding Steph along these lines basically just resting on 2016 (in which Steph was coming off a significant in-playoffs injury).

You have it correct... 2015-2017 with 2018 being the only exception where I truly believe Curry outplayed LeBron. And again, that's only because of LeBron's hand fracture.

I am actually one of the few people who think LeBron's 2015 Finals performance is overrated. I do recognize the flaws in how he played in that series and the terrible shooting percentages. But at the same time, we can't ignore the circumstances he was playing under. He was up against an elite defensive team with multiple all team worthy players while having little spacing to work with. LeBron had to spend a large majority of that series forcing the issue and more often than not, it didn't work out. But he still managed to carry a heavily depleted Cavaliers team, put them in a position to succeed, and I like his all around impact more than what Curry provided, who I think actually had an underrated 2015 Finals series (people act like he was terrible all series but in reality he had one really bad game, and that was game 2).

You actually mentioned that LeBron looked like he was struggling throughout the 2015 playoffs... I think him playing heavy minutes over and over again has something to do with that.

I don’t really disagree with the details of what you say, but I don’t agree with the conclusion about LeBron being better in the series. As I mentioned before, the degree of difficulty for LeBron was definitely high, and I don’t fault him for his team losing the series, but shooting a high volume on 47.7% TS% is just not good. Was it somewhat a result of the difficult circumstances? Sure, though the fact that he had a negative opponent-relative TS% in every series in those playoffs suggests it was about more than that (i.e. he shot badly in those playoffs even when the team wasn’t depleted, and he shot badly even considering the opponents’ quality). But I don’t think we can or should curve up LeBron’s individual performance *that* much just based on his team being overmatched. If we act like a 47.7% TS% series was good because his team was overmatched and he scored a lot, then basically anyone can have a series deemed good just by being on the worse team and taking lots of shots.

Meanwhile, I think you are definitely right in saying Steph’s 2015 Finals is underrated. Steph really was the engine of a huge amount that didn’t end up on the scoresheet for him. This is a good video for that (fast forward past the first minute, which is just Draymond talking):

Watch on YouTube

We're in agreement on 2016.

And yes, in 2017 I think LeBron also outplayed Curry. Both were pretty awful defensively in this series, so it really just comes down to who you think had a great impact on the offensive end. Curry drew a great deal of defensive pressure from Cleveland as they consistently double teamed him and tried to limit his production to the best of their ability. The only problem is... they couldn't really slow down LeBron either. And he did a good job running the Cleveland offense that, apart from game 1, had its way with the GS defense (only problem is... their defense was so bad that they couldn't slow down the GS offense).

I don’t have a problem with someone saying LeBron outplayed Curry in the 2017 Finals. LeBron played really well! I just think it’s definitely not a series that can be used against Curry in any meaningful way. After all, Curry played really well and his team easily won the series. A Finals series where a guy goes 27/9/8 on 62% TS% and 2.2 steals a game while his team easily wins a 4-1 series is not a series that actually goes against a GOAT case (and especially when so much of his impact is gravity-related stuff that doesn’t end up on the scoresheet).

Side note, I will never understand how anyone can claim this team was LeBron's best one. I know you're saying it's just arguable but in reality I don't think they should even be in the conversation. If you are pathetically bad at one end of the floor, you don't get consideration.

I think the argument for the 2017 Cavs being that great rests a lot on the fact that they dominated the first three rounds of the playoffs. And the idea would be that the 2017 Cavs were coasting in the RS like teams sometimes do after winning the title, and therefore that the playoffs was a better gauge of their strength. I don’t really buy it, primarily because I don’t think they faced any actual legitimately good team in the first three rounds of the playoffs, so it’s a little too cute to base one’s view of their strength solely on how they played against pretty middling opponents. But, at the very least, it was a very similar team to the 2016 version that had just won the title. It definitely was a formidable Finals opponent for Steph and the Warriors to get past, and it reflects well on Steph that they did so easily.

[WarriorGM]

The idea of a Steph Curry GOAT case is delusional, but to make one centering around being UNLUCKY with injury is one of the most hilarious statements ever written on the internet.

2015 - Jrue Holiday injured
Conley and Allen injured
Kyrie and Love injured and miss series

2017 - Kawhi injury (no Parker either)

2018 - CP3 hamstring injury when up 3-2

2022 - Murray/Porter/nearly everyone injured
Ja Morant injury midway through series
Tatum playing through shoulder and wrist injuries (just as detrimental to his performance as the knee was in 2016)

The Warriors do not have a single win without seeing crucial stars on other teams injured.

If you want to call Curry the GOAT there are ways to do it, but basing it off of him being oh so unlucky with injury? Come on.

2019 is the one season where he truly was unlucky, and that shouldn’t be ignored, but it left him in the exact situation that the Cavs were in during the 2015 series, so it cancels out.

The injuries in the 2019 playoffs left the Warriors in the same exact situation that the Cavaliers were in during the 2015 series? Really? I did not know that the Cavaliers were left without a credible number two option for the next few seasons due to their injuries in 2015.

Your entire post is full of such false equivalences and biased logic.

Just sticking to the 2015 and 2019 comparison again, saying they would just cancel out is presumptuous. Why should we assume that Curry could not have won both times if injuries weren't a factor? Indeed the body of evidence I'd argue suggests that Curry likely could have won in all three years of 2015, 2016, and 2019 if injuries didn't come up. Injuries hurt Curry's chances more than they helped him.

Same goes for the rest of your examples. Even with Kawhi not being injured in 2017 do you think the Warriors couldn't come back? 2018 too after what happened in 2019?

Referencing the 2022 Nuggets series is just a plain disingenuous example engaging in speculative fantasy. If Murray and MPJ were healthy they presumably would have helped Jokic attain a higher seed and they may not have even have played the Warriors.

As for the 2022 Grizzlies series, the Grizzlies had a great record without Ja during the regular season shifting to become a more defensive team without him. The Warriors beat both versions of the Grizzlies with Ja and without Ja 2-1. By the way GPII was also injured in the series.

Let's take a step back though. What are people really insinuating when they bring up these injury complaints? Isn't it basically saying that the Warriors were advantaged and that their opponents were disadvantaged?

To that Curry has a terrific rebuttal: Curry has been the one who has been in more disadvantageous positions than he could reasonably have expected.

2015 injuries to a couple of the opponents' supporting players? Pshaw! What is that next to the disadvantages Curry had to overcome: How about having your highest paid teammate be David Lee and barely useful? How about having a roster of teammates full of finals newbies? How about having as a coach a first-time coach? How about playing in the tougher conference? How about having to face all the top seeds possible on your playoffs path and each one being led by a player on the First Team All-NBA?

Curry had to overcome all of that to win his first title—and his critics are calling him lucky. I submit that far from 2015 being "lucky" it is one of the most impressive championship debut's of an all-time great in NBA history.

[Iwasawitness]

I don’t really disagree with the details of what you say, but I don’t agree with the conclusion about LeBron being better in the series. As I mentioned before, the degree of difficulty for LeBron was definitely high, and I don’t fault him for his team losing the series, but shooting a high volume on 47.7% TS% is just not good. Was it somewhat a result of the difficult circumstances? Sure, though the fact that he had a negative opponent-relative TS% in every series in those playoffs suggests it was about more than that (i.e. he shot badly in those playoffs even when the team wasn’t depleted, and he shot badly even considering the opponents’ quality). But I don’t think we can or should curve up LeBron’s individual performance *that* much just based on his team being overmatched. If we act like a 47.7% TS% series was good because his team was overmatched and he scored a lot, then basically anyone can have a series deemed good just by being on the worse team and taking lots of shots.

Meanwhile, I think you are definitely right in saying Steph’s 2015 Finals is underrated. Steph really was the engine of a huge amount that didn’t end up on the scoresheet for him. This is a good video for that (fast forward past the first minute, which is just Draymond talking):

Watch on YouTube

Well again, while I don't think LeBron's 2015 series is great like some people like to pretend... I don't necessarily think it's bad either. Of course, if we're talking strictly from the standpoint of TS%, then Jordan does not get nearly enough **** for some of the awful playoff series he's had in his career. Again though, with LeBron we have to take into account the other aspects of the game he impacted, which is ultimately where I think he gets the edge over what we both agree was an underrated series from Curry.

I don’t have a problem with someone saying LeBron outplayed Curry in the 2017 Finals. LeBron played really well! I just think it’s definitely not a series that can be used against Curry in any meaningful way. After all, Curry played really well and his team easily won the series. A Finals series where a guy goes 27/9/8 on 62% TS% and 2.2 steals a game while his team easily wins a 4-1 series is not a series that actually goes against a GOAT case (and especially when so much of his impact is gravity-related stuff that doesn’t end up on the scoresheet).

Who said anything about using this against Curry? My only point was that had it not been for a fractured hand, we'd be talking about the fact that LeBron arguably outplayed Curry every single time they met in a finals series. Yes, Curry played great in 2017, and he was without question the Warriors most important player in that series (much to the chagrin of Durant fans).

But let me ask a question here: if an argument truly does exist for Curry to be the GOAT in this sport, why is it that in seven trips to an NBA finals, his most noteworthy finals series of all time is one that isn't even top ten? Why do none of his games standout with the test of time and are frequently cited as all time performances? Why does someone like LeBron, a person WarriorGM passionately thinks Curry is above as a player, have multiple playoff performances that have gone down in history, and one of which even created a meme?

Hell, let's visit this for a moment and discuss it in detail, shall we? What are some classic, all time playoff performances from LeBron? Off the top of my head, the ones that immediately come to mind are game 5 against Detroit in 2007, game 7 against Boston in 08 where he put up 45 against a historically great defense and almost carried Cleveland to what would have been a historic upset, game 6 against Boston in 2012 where he had one of the most historically dominant offensive performances of all time, game 7 against the Spurs in 2013 (a performance people like to ignore because they like to hyper focus on Ray Allen hitting one three pointer in game 6), games 5, 6 and 7 against GS in 2016, the infamous LeBronto game in 2018 where he literally just kept shooting for the hell of it and couldn't miss, game 7 against Boston that same year, and game 1 against Golden State where he dropped 51 on them. And hell, we don't even have to look at it from a scoring perspective. LeBron is responsible for one of the greatest and most memorable defensive plays of all time. He locked up the MVP in 2011 for an entire series and swung it in his teams favor as a result. He's also locked up the likes of Tony Parker and Paul Pierce.

Again, those are just off the top of my head.

What does Curry have that compares with any of this? He lit up Boston in game 4 in the 2022 Finals. He had a near 50 point piece against Toronto in 2019 but I can't remember what game it was. That's no small feat when you consider how great that Toronto team was. Apart from that... his playoff resume is actually pretty underwhelming.

People love to prop up playoff performances, coming up big on a consistent basis. I'm looking at LeBron... he has a multitude of all time performances, has had some dominant playoff series, is the greatest elimination game performer of all time, has had dominant defensive performances that shifted an entire series, and led a team to the only 3-1 comeback in Finals history. Curry on the other hand has blown a 3-1 lead in the finals. 2022 Finals vs Boston is his greatest achievement by far, but honestly? What else is there? His 2017 and 2018 Finals wins are overshadowed by Durant because people are clueless, Klay is the one given more credit for saving GS's season in 2016 when they overcame OKC and came back when down 3-1... and hell, Iggy was the one who ultimately got the FMVP award in 2015 and rightfully so (even though I still contend that Curry's performance in that series is underrated). 2022 saved Curry's reputation as someone who needed others to dominate for him... it was finally his time to show that he could lead a team to victory. It shouldn't have even taken that long.

Don't worry, I'll get to the point soon, just bare with me.

So with all of this in mind and everything factored in, it's fair to say that LeBron is the better playoff performer, who has had a far greater impact on his team in that regard and has done more to help them than Curry has. He's a better all around player than Curry. Even in a career where he's spent half of it no longer trying in the regular season, he still has twice the MVP's Curry does, as well as twice the FMVP despite both having the same amount of rings. Even if you argue that Curry has the greater offensive impact (which he does, I won't deny it), there's too big of a gap in other aspects of the game that tips the balance in LeBron's favor.

With all of this in mind, I ask the question that I've asked multiple times now in this thread (or more so stated but whatever): what possible argument does Curry have over LeBron? He's not a better player, he hasn't been a better playoff performer, LeBron has outplayed him multiple times not even counting finals where you can definitely make the case he's done it three out of the four times (again, the one only being because of a hand injury, and before said injury, LeBron dropped 51 points). Like... what are we even doing here?

Tim Duncan is someone that has a GOAT case if you squint your eyes. Bird does. Magic does. Curry has absolutely no GOAT case at all. None. At this point, the only ones who truly have a case are Jordan, LeBron, Kareem and Russell. That's pretty much it. Anyone else at that point is just blind fanboyism that doesn't deserve any real merit. Maybe once Curry becomes a consensus top ten all time player (which right now he isn't), then we can move on to the next step in the process here. But at this point? He'd be lucky to make it farther than that.

I think the argument for the 2017 Cavs being that great rests a lot on the fact that they dominated the first three rounds of the playoffs. And the idea would be that the 2017 Cavs were coasting in the RS like teams sometimes do after winning the title, and therefore that the playoffs was a better gauge of their strength. I don’t really buy it, primarily because I don’t think they faced any actual legitimately good team in the first three rounds of the playoffs, so it’s a little too cute to base one’s view of their strength solely on how they played against pretty middling opponents. But, at the very least, it was a very similar team to the 2016 version that had just won the title. It definitely was a formidable Finals opponent for Steph and the Warriors to get past, and it reflects well on Steph that they did so easily.

I mean... sure, but that cast of teams the Cavaliers faced in 2017 were historically weak. I mean... the best team they faced in the playoffs that year before they ran into GS were the Celtics, who were a 53 win team with a 2.25 SRS. They weren't even a top 10 ranked defense and barely had a top 10 offense. Maybe you could say the Raptors were better? They did have a better SRS and had the sixth best offense in the league, but they also had Demar Derozan... which is pretty much an automatic L eventually. I think this more so demonstrates how weak the competition is than how good the Cavaliers are.

[lessthanjake]

.

On the 2015 Finals, I think what you’re saying largely just rehashes what you’d already said, so I don’t have more to add.

As for the part about playoff performances, if you go back to my initial post on this subject yesterday, you’ll see that I raised Steph not being a playoff riser as a problem for making a GOAT case for him. So I don’t entirely disagree. I will say, though, that I think a lot of peoples’ assessment of how someone did in the playoffs is a bit over-reliant on box-score watching. I get it, because playoffs are too small-sample to have reliable impact data. But Steph’s teams did really well in the playoffs, and Steph was demonstrably their most impactful player in general, so it seems like a reasonable inference to conclude that he was extremely impactful in the playoffs. I think that’s what a GOAT case for Steph would have to rely on as a retort to that point. And it’s not without backing from an eye test, when we think about how teams chose to guard Steph in the playoffs—which was in ways that tended to make things much easier for his team but in ways that didn’t reach the box score for Steph. To some degree, your post acknowledges this, since you refer to peoples’ perception of Steph in the playoffs while noting that you have some disagreement with that perception. But suffice to say that a GOAT case for Steph would obviously have to take a more positive view of Steph’s playoff impact than the popular perception is, and that it wouldn’t be entirely without basis to do so.

As for the 2017 Cavaliers, I generally agree with you. I think the 2017 Cavaliers were still a strong Finals opponent though. Anytime a team is facing a healthy version of the defending champion who has romped their way through their conference, it’s definitely a strong Finals opponent. The Warriors beating them easily was impressive, even if we think other LeBron teams like the 2012 or 2013 Heat were better.

[zimpy27]

LeBron teammates while playing with him have accumulated 0.11 of MVP vote share over 22 seasons.
That's 0.005 votes per season.

Jordan teammate while playing with him have accumulated 0.33 of MVP vote share over 15 seasons.
That's 0.022 votes per season.
This is over 4 times that of LeBron.

People speak of LeBron's teammates but the level of talent in prime just doesn't compare to Jordan in their respective careers.

[lessthanjake]

LeBron teammates while playing with him have accumulated 0.11 of MVP vote share over 22 seasons.
That's 0.005 votes per season.

Jordan teammate while playing with him have accumulated 0.33 of MVP vote share over 15 seasons.
That's 0.022 votes per season.
This is over 4 times that of LeBron.

People speak of LeBron's teammates but the level of talent in prime just doesn't compare to Jordan in their respective careers.

Part of being great is elevating your teammates though, and one criticism of LeBron is that he doesn’t necessarily fit well with other major stars and that they have to scale back their game to accommodate him. So this sort of information could cut either way.

[lessthanjake]

The idea of a Steph Curry GOAT case is delusional, but to make one centering around being UNLUCKY with injury is one of the most hilarious statements ever written on the internet.

2015 - Jrue Holiday injured
Conley and Allen injured
Kyrie and Love injured and miss series

2017 - Kawhi injury (no Parker either)

2018 - CP3 hamstring injury when up 3-2

2022 - Murray/Porter/nearly everyone injured
Ja Morant injury midway through series
Tatum playing through shoulder and wrist injuries (just as detrimental to his performance as the knee was in 2016)

The Warriors do not have a single win without seeing crucial stars on other teams injured.

If you want to call Curry the GOAT there are ways to do it, but basing it off of him being oh so unlucky with injury? Come on.

2019 is the one season where he truly was unlucky, and that shouldn’t be ignored, but it left him in the exact situation that the Cavs were in during the 2015 series, so it cancels out.

The injuries in the 2019 playoffs left the Warriors in the same exact situation that the Cavaliers were in during the 2015 series? Really? I did not know that the Cavaliers were left without a credible number two option for the next few seasons due to their injuries in 2015.

Your entire post is full of such false equivalences and biased logic.

Just sticking to the 2015 and 2019 comparison again, saying they would just cancel out is presumptuous. Why should we assume that Curry could not have won both times if injuries weren't a factor? Indeed the body of evidence I'd argue suggests that Curry likely could have won in all three years of 2015, 2016, and 2019 if injuries didn't come up. Injuries hurt Curry's chances more than they helped him.

Same goes for the rest of your examples. Even with Kawhi not being injured in 2017 do you think the Warriors couldn't come back? 2018 too after what happened in 2019?

Referencing the 2022 Nuggets series is just a plain disingenuous example engaging in speculative fantasy. If Murray and MPJ were healthy they presumably would have helped Jokic attain a higher seed and they may not have even have played the Warriors.

As for the 2022 Grizzlies series, the Grizzlies had a great record without Ja during the regular season shifting to become a more defensive team without him. The Warriors beat both versions of the Grizzlies with Ja and without Ja 2-1. By the way GPII was also injured in the series.

Let's take a step back though. What are people really insinuating when they bring up these injury complaints? Isn't it basically saying that the Warriors were advantaged and that their opponents were disadvantaged?

To that Curry has a terrific rebuttal: Curry has been the one who has been in more disadvantageous positions than he could reasonably have expected.

2015 injuries to a couple of the opponents' supporting players? Pshaw! What is that next to the disadvantages Curry had to overcome: How about having your highest paid teammate be David Lee and barely useful? How about having a roster of teammates full of finals newbies? How about having as a coach a first-time coach? How about playing in the tougher conference? How about having to face all the top seeds possible on your playoffs path and each one being led by a player on the First Team All-NBA?

Curry had to overcome all of that to win his first title—and his critics are calling him lucky. I submit that far from 2015 being "lucky" it is one of the most impressive championship debut's of an all-time great in NBA history.

Yeah, while I wasn’t making any argument about “injury luck,” I do think that if we zoomed out a bit it’s difficult to make an argument that Steph was actually lucky with injuries. A few important points:

1. Long-term injuries to his teammates and himself ended any chance of his team contending in 2020 and 2021, which were two years right in the middle of his prime. This is a really big deal.

2. He had a lot of injury struggles early in his career, which were a major contributor to him being a bit of a late-bloomer compared to other all-time greats.

3. His team blew up with injuries in the 2019 playoffs.

4. Even after that 2020 & 2021 time period, his best offensive teammate—Klay Thompson—was a shadow of his former self. Steph still got another title, but it was definitely made a good bit harder due to that injury situation, and hurt their chances in 2023 and 2024.

5. Steph himself got injured in the 2016 playoffs, in a year that his team barely lost in the Finals (i.e. a good chance they win if he’s even a little better/healthier).

Of course, the Warriors also got their share of injury luck. Kyrie and Love were injured in the 2015 Finals. Kawhi got injured in the 2017 WCF. And Chris Paul got injured in the 2018 WCF. It’s possible the Warriors would’ve lost those series if those guys hadn’t gotten injured. In fact, in 2018, I’d even go so far as to say I think it’s more likely than not that the Warriors would’ve lost (though if we take away Iguodala’s injury too, then maybe that swings back the other way).

However, I think if you set the league’s injury sliders to zero for each season of Steph’s career, it’s by no means clear to me at all that Steph and the Warriors would be worse off. In fact, if anything, I’m inclined to think the opposite. To me, that doesn’t really matter, since I think players’ greatness can only be measured by what actually happened and what they actually achieved, not on hypotheticals. But if we’re going to go down that hypothetical route, I really don’t think it leads to a diminished view of Steph.

[zimpy27]

LeBron teammates while playing with him have accumulated 0.11 of MVP vote share over 22 seasons.
That's 0.005 votes per season.

Jordan teammate while playing with him have accumulated 0.33 of MVP vote share over 15 seasons.
That's 0.022 votes per season.
This is over 4 times that of LeBron.

People speak of LeBron's teammates but the level of talent in prime just doesn't compare to Jordan in their respective careers.

Part of being great is elevating your teammates though, and one criticism of LeBron is that he doesn’t necessarily fit well with other major stars and that they have to scale back their game to accommodate him. So this sort of information could cut either way.

That's not true though.

LeBron didn't make players worse, he made many better. Some stars may have an obvious drop off in stats because he takes over some stats while being on the floor. But that happens with all of the best players.

Do you think the same of Jordan because Rodman dropped off on Bulls or because Pippen was an MVP threat without Jordan?