NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[Optms]

Lol at the idea that voters want to give Jokic the award based on race…because at the end of the day, he’s doughy, traditionally unathletic, doesn’t slam it home and block shots into the stands and his apathy to the award is a slap in the face to their power.

They have myriad reasons not to vote for him but they still do nonetheless because there’s simply no one in the league more important to the success of their team. And they vote with gritted teeth but I don’t think they are too happy about it. Skin color be damned.

Disagree. Luka is way more important to his team than Jokic and its not even an argument.

The Nuggets just handedly beat a Clippers team on the road without Jokic. The Mav's would be lucky to win 15 games all season without Luka. The Nuggets are a 30-35 win team at best without Jokic. There is a massive difference in talent between the two supporting casts here and people need to stop pretending as if there isn't for the sake of propping up Jokic.

Jokic in terms of importance is basically on par with Giannis/Bucks or KD/Nets.

[Mickey8]

Jokic is equally important to the Nuggets team , you can't base your theory because of the one win against crappy Clippers who Denver have beaten by 30 points ten days ago. You need the bigger sample, I don't think Denver is the play off team without Jokic. And I will repeat again I don't have Jokic as the MVP front runner this season.

[Colbinii]

jalen brunson is in the mix

LOL

[Mickey8]

jalen brunson is in the mix

Behind Sabonis.

[mpoo_sin]

Tatum On-Off: +8.6
Jokic On-Off: +21.4

To Add:

The Nuggets with Jokic are +11.3 while the Celtics with Tatum are +8.5.

So the Nuggets are better with Jokic than the Celtics are with Tatum.

Well to be honest I think Tatum was leading heavy all year long but maybe The Joker finally caught him And passed him.. I wasn't sure..

But I don't need to apologize since I did say Joker is a clear cut MVP at this point..

Tatum is nowhere near the top2 atm. He is clearly far behind Jokic/Doncic. His shooting has fallen of a cliff recently.

[Dutchball97]

Surely games missed… and wins contributed has to be a big part of the discussion too. I can’t see how Embiid is 5th when he’s 18-12

Embiid is 8th in EPM's estimated wins added, 10th in WS, 8th in VORP and 6th in RAPTOR WAR. He's missed time but he's still played enough to be regarded as at least top 10 in terms of added value for this season by the stats. Meanwhile on a per minute he's 3rd in EPM (behind Jokic and Luka), 4th in BPM (behind Jokic, Luka and Curry), 4th in WS/48 (behind Jokic, AD and Luka), 4th in PER (Jokic, AD and Luka again) and 5th in RAPTOR (Jokic, Luka, AD and Curry). Sounds like a decent top 5 case to me.

At a certain point we have to factor in missed time being a pretty big advantage in terms of maintaining efficiency, advanced stats etc. I value the guys who show up day in day out, and play through injuries and knocks.

I get the advanced stats are part of it… but I’ll take Donovan Mitchell’s 25-13 record (7 more wins at the halfway mark!) whilst averaging 29 a game on nearly 50/40/90 shooting splits - not to mention Luka, Jokic, Tatum who I think all have better claims. Giannis rounds up my top 5, playing with a worse supporting cast and with a better team record (5 more wins then Embiid).

For me availability and wins are key in an MVP race. So, whilst for the purposes of an all star game I’d vote Embiid over Tatum for a starting front court spot (as I value wins/ availability as slightly less important for that vote), it absolutely should count for the MVP debate.

It's like you forgot my list halfway through. I've already got Luka, Jokic and Tatum ahead. Wins and availability are already being taken into account otherwise Embiid would be over Tatum quite easily.

Mitchell has an argument as he's slightly ahead in the wins added categories of the stats I mentioned but I have him below Embiid because he's been a clear tier below on a per minute basis. While number of wins is an important factor it shouldn't be the only one, especially since it isn't Mitchell's record but the Cavs'. I don't remember a player who is barely top 10 in the league being a legit MVP candidate often.

Giannis just isn't it this year. I've included him because even in an off-year he's among the best in the league but statistically he's playing worse than the previous 4 seasons and more in line with his pre-MVP, All-NBA 2nd team level 2017 and 2018 seasons. Sure he's played 5 more games than Embiid but every single stat shows he's provided less value/wins than Embiid even with those 100-150ish extra minutes.

[Mick Dundee]

What puts Jokic ahead of Kevin Durant in your Opinion?

This former Pro thinks Durant is the clear-cut MVP so far and his Arguments are quite convincing ...

Watch on YouTube

[B-easy]

jalen brunson is in the mix

Thanks bro, this was the hardest I laughed in a long time.

[nomansland]

What puts Jokic ahead of Kevin Durant in your Opinion?

This former Pro thinks Durant is the clear-cut MVP so far and his Arguments are quite convincing ...

Watch on YouTube

Lots wrong with his assessment, and it appears to be a bit dated already. The main problem I have is how he goes into numbers with Durant and then with Jokic says "I'm not going to go into the numbers". Coincidence? Jokic's numbers all around are better. Then all of the other stuff, the leadership, the durability, the love for the game, the professionalism all applies just as much to Jokic as it does to Durant. AND using his own damn criteria, Jokic is the best player on the team with the 2nd best record in the league. Just seems like Eastern conference bias by a guy who probably watches more games from that conference (I'm guilty of the same with the West btw).

All of that said, the Nuggets just owned the Clippers without Jokic last night so he clearly is not MVP quality. Changing my vote to Embiid.

[Exp0sed]

Sabonis def entering the top 5
still far from the top spots obviously
he's been consistent, phenomenal and the Kings are firmly rooted in a HCA playoff spot

and yeah, playing with one hand counts
especially when most stars are sitting out with minor injuries or even just plain "rest'

SGA has been an MVP caliber player all season but team record was holding him back
If OKC can make a run on the 2nd half of the season, he should be getting some lower place votes as well

same goes for Markanen if the Jazz manage to climb up in the standings
he has consisntely been (by far) their best player

[BelgradeNugget]

What puts Jokic ahead of Kevin Durant in your Opinion?

This former Pro thinks Durant is the clear-cut MVP so far and his Arguments are quite convincing ...

Watch on YouTube

Nice from a guy who placed Jokic 2x MVP as top 7 player at the beginning of the season

Watch on YouTube

Nevermind, he had some nice analysis and I think Kevin Durant is terribly underrated in this MVP discussion, should have been top 3 IMO.

Here are some things I don't agree with him. Durant is having unbelievable shooting season, no doubt, but so is Jokic, arguable even better. But there is one thing I hear a lot, and I laugh a lot when comparing some player to Jokic. Player X is averaging 4-6 assists, so he can pass so they are close on offense. And X is better on defense more than Jokic is on offense.
People still don't understand what Jokic is doing. He is not passing the ball. He is playmaking for historically great offense with his 2nd and 3rd option coming back from injury. So he is most efficient volume scorer, the best playmaker for the best offensive team. Hugh gap.

About defense, Nuggets are not 22nd any more in DEFRTG, they are 19th right now. Not great but they have been top 3 in DEFRTG in last 15 games

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?Outcome=&sort=DEF_RATING&DateFrom=&LastNGames=15

Something around 10th for 2nd half of the season. One more interesting thing he mentioned. He blamed Jokic on Nuggets bad transition defense. My question - is Center who spends at least 1/2 of offense on low post scoring, distributing, fighting for O rebs responsible for teams bad transition defense?
And he himself acknowledged Jokic is running hard on D. Just my observations.

[p0peye]

If you think transition defense relies on center, you know less about basketball than you think.

[Mickey8]

Durant is playing alongside two players who were all star's season or two ago.Luka is playing with none. Luka is way more dominant player than Durant at this point of their careers , its not even close. Nobody serious will put Durant over Luka in the MVP rankings . Durant should be in the conversation but he's at the best third on the list.

[Mavrelous]

Sabonis def entering the top 5
still far from the top spots obviously
he's been consistent, phenomenal and the Kings are firmly rooted in a HCA playoff spot

and yeah, playing with one hand counts
especially when most stars are sitting out with minor injuries or even just plain "rest'

SGA has been an MVP caliber player all season but team record was holding him back
If OKC can make a run on the 2nd half of the season, he should be getting some lower place votes as well

same goes for Markanen if the Jazz manage to climb up in the standings
he has consisntely been (by far) their best player

Is he Kings MVP even? Seems like Fox is the focal point of that team.

[Exp0sed]

Sabonis def entering the top 5
still far from the top spots obviously
he's been consistent, phenomenal and the Kings are firmly rooted in a HCA playoff spot

and yeah, playing with one hand counts
especially when most stars are sitting out with minor injuries or even just plain "rest'

SGA has been an MVP caliber player all season but team record was holding him back
If OKC can make a run on the 2nd half of the season, he should be getting some lower place votes as well

same goes for Markanen if the Jazz manage to climb up in the standings
he has consisntely been (by far) their best player

Is he Kings MVP even? Seems like Fox is the focal point of that team.

why? because he takes more shots and scores more points?

Apart from slighty better shooting %'s and TS% - fox is the same player he was the last couple of years
his stats are basically identical

not to mention at least part of his (somewhat) improved shooting can be credited to playing alongside Sabonis

was he an MVP candidate last season? or the one before? he wasn't even all-star caliber
he's the same player Sabonis has clearly been better than him this season

raw stats, eye test and every advanced metric that you can think of places Sabonis ahead of Fox in terms of impact etc.

so yeah, Sabonis is clearly their best player
fox is the #1 option on offense

kinda like Jokic is taking less shots than other guys on this year's Nuggets

[Infinite Llamas]

Lol at the idea that voters want to give Jokic the award based on race…because at the end of the day, he’s doughy, traditionally unathletic, doesn’t slam it home and block shots into the stands and his apathy to the award is a slap in the face to their power.

They have myriad reasons not to vote for him but they still do nonetheless because there’s simply no one in the league more important to the success of their team. And they vote with gritted teeth but I don’t think they are too happy about it. Skin color be damned.

Disagree. Luka is way more important to his team than Jokic and its not even an argument.

The Nuggets just handedly beat a Clippers team on the road without Jokic. The Mav's would be lucky to win 15 games all season without Luka. The Nuggets are a 30-35 win team at best without Jokic. There is a massive difference in talent between the two supporting casts here and people need to stop pretending as if there isn't for the sake of propping up Jokic.

Jokic in terms of importance is basically on par with Giannis/Bucks or KD/Nets.

If you’re trying to argue the point with me, it’s an argument. Hence, it is an argument.

This Mavs team is basically the same team as last year only you swap Wood for Brunson. They won 7 RS games last year without Luka including two playoff games. Maybe the discussion should be more about how valuable Brunson was for that team. So Luka is now playing the whole year without his second best player. Boohoo. Jokic did it last year and I don’t recall you trying to give Jokic MVP support even though he was surrounded by g-league talent and it was one of the greatest carry jobs in NBA history.

If Jokic can get 46 wins with Gordon/Barton/Rivers, I see no reason why Luka can’t get that with Dinwiddie/Wood/THJ

[playa-hater]

Edit

[Mickey8]

Again, It was the one game against Clippers team that is trending downwards. You need the bigger sample to prove that, that Denver can play winning basketball without Jokic. I am 100% sure that they can't , and they would be out of the play off picture without him. Jokic is important to his team as much as Doncic is for his. Doncic is my MVP this season though.

[bisme37]

Per Cleaning The Glass:

[playa-hater]

Per Cleaning The Glass:

These are not small sample sizes Tatum's impact is immeasurable past typical numbers. Especially high usage numbers that other players seem to have..

One can even make the argument had a very talented scorer like Jay Brown not been there Tatum's usage and all kinds of statistical numbers would shoot up for the greater..

The fact that he doesn't even need J Brown on the court to show how good he is should alone stand for a concrete fact That many are ignoring.. J Tatum makes a huge impact to winning.. And that really is the only thing that matters.