2013-14 MVP Discussion Thread Pt II

[nyk_buc]

We have about 28-29 games left. That's plenty of time to change the perception of voters. Lebron has 2 more games v. Indy. He dominates those and have the Heat with the best record, I'm pretty sure it'll be Lebron who will win MVP.

[VoodooPriest]

Are you serious????

wade plays 50% most of the season to conserve himself...did u not see how he played against the Thunder the last game..wade can turn it on and off because he has lebron...

bosh role has diminished because he's not a top option anymore...but he can turn it up at will as well...they can come through when lebron can't

HOW MANY GAME WINNING THREES HAVE RAY ALLEN HIT IN THE CLUTCH FOR THE HEAT???

The presence of bosh wade and allen makes things easier for lebron...wade comes through every time in the playoffs when lebron is off...same with bosh

the fact that you can down a top player like wade to make lebron seem soo much better is dumb...

Old or not wade is still a top 3 guard (kobe, harden, wade) he's far from a shell and can easily average 25,5,5...

Lebron is better than durant because of age and setting...He's in his prime and is playing with the best team in the nba..even without lebron the heat would be a top 3 seed...

and kobe was the best player in the nba while lebron was in cleveland...

KD will eclipse lebron it happening this season and will be on full display next season..

What are the most recent Playoff averages for Wade and Bosh, and while you're there, give me how many points Chris Bosh scored in Game 7 of the Finals?

Wade can still easily average 25/5/5? You said it yourself, he's on the court 50% of the time. The reason for that is his body's broke, what you're seeing is a Dwyane Wade treading water. Pushing himself any harder that what he is, and you'd likely have a Wade that looks worse than the 2013 Playoffs version.

[James Rustles]

The only reason LeBron is even a DPOY candidate is media hype combined with him begging for the award at times.

He has statistically been nothing more than an average at best defender this season. Last year in the playoffs and regular season he also had a lot of moments where he was a liability on that end of the floor.

You are one funny dude. LeBron a liability on defense... The stuff people come up with jeez

I never once said LeBron was a liability on defense just that he has his moments where he is. And I don't care if that's because he doesn't care, is coasting, is tired from carrying a large load on offense, it's simply the fact. Hard to be a true DPOY when your team is statistically better on defense without you on the floor. Or when your synergy stats show that you aren't defending at anything above an average level. Hell, Durant is allowing his opponent to score almost half as many points as LeBron is in isolation (1 on 1) situations.

LeBron currently is one of the most overrated defenders ever considering he actually was a runner up in the DPOY award last year while much more deserving guys like Hibbert didn't even crack the top 10 in voting.

I saw James Harden guard PF David Lee in the 4th Quarter the other day and actually do a decent job on him. The difference is unlike LeBron, he didn't get the commentators going crazy about how he's supposedly the only guy in the NBA capable of guarding multiple positions. Last year in the playoffs Durant guarded 2-5 and actually did a great job defensively on Marc Gasol. I didn't see the commentators making a big deal about that either.

[ThePersianFreak]

The only reason LeBron is even a DPOY candidate is media hype combined with him begging for the award at times.

He has statistically been nothing more than an average at best defender this season. Last year in the playoffs and regular season he also had a lot of moments where he was a liability on that end of the floor.

You are one funny dude. LeBron a liability on defense... The stuff people come up with jeez

I never once said LeBron was a liability on defense just that he has his moments where he is. And I don't care if that's because he doesn't care, is coasting, is tired from carrying a large load on offense, it's simply the fact. Hard to be a true DPOY when your team is statistically better on defense without you on the floor. Or when your synergy stats show that you aren't defending at anything above an average level. Hell, Durant is allowing his opponent to score almost half as many points as LeBron is in isolation (1 on 1) situations.

LeBron currently is one of the most overrated defenders ever considering he actually was a runner up in the DPOY award last year while much more deserving guys like Hibbert didn't even crack the top 10 in voting.

I saw James Harden guard PF David Lee in the 4th Quarter the other day and actually do a decent job on him. The difference is unlike LeBron, he didn't get the commentators going crazy about how he's supposedly the only guy in the NBA capable of guarding multiple positions. Last year in the playoffs Durant guarded 2-5 and actually did a great job defensively on Marc Gasol. I didn't see the commentators making a big deal about that either.

[rcontador]

What is the Heat's record without Lebron this season?

[James Rustles]

What is the Heat's record without Lebron this season?

2-0. Beat the Trailblazers and now the Bulls. I think alltime without LeBron they are like 7-1.

Van Gundy had an interesting point during the game. He said that the Heat would be the 2nd best team in the East without LeBron. But right now they are the 2nd best team in the East with him. Makes you wonder if that plays into the MVP race at all with Durant having to play without Westbrook for over half of the season to this point and his team still having the best record in the much tougher conference in the West.

I really don't understand NBA.com's MVP ladder at all.

[rcontador]

I really don't understand NBA.com's MVP ladder at all.

Here's a quote from the most recent post on nba.com's MVP ladder:

James also stats throughout the season that nobody, other than maybe Durant, can come close approaching. His last four games, using that as just a snapshot, have been beyond mercurial.

It's a site written by idiots, for idiots.

[LBJ-ITALY]

What is the Heat's record without Lebron this season?

2-0. Beat the Trailblazers and now the Bulls. I think alltime without LeBron they are like 7-1.

Van Gundy had an interesting point during the game. He said that the Heat would be the 2nd best team in the East without LeBron. But right now they are the 2nd best team in the East with him. Makes you wonder if that plays into the MVP race at all with Durant having to play without Westbrook for over half of the season to this point and his team still having the best record in the much tougher conference in the West.

I really don't understand NBA.com's MVP ladder at all.

Yea thw Miami Heat would be second in the east conference because the east conference is Awful and yes again, they would be second, but with 10-12 wins from Indiana!

[ThePersianFreak]

Miami is 7-1 without LeBron.
One game against the Hawks, they were down 3, Bosh hit game tying 3 and the Heat win in tripple OT.
One game against the Spurs, down 2, Bosh hit go ahead 3 and the Heat win by one.
One game against the Blazers, down 2, Bosh hit go ahead 3 and the Heat win by one.
Bosh love him some LeBron injury

[Gwynplaine]

You have to laugh at the lengths people go.. Record without Lebron it seems.. A two game sample? What a sorry use of a stat. What's the record of the thunder without Durant? 1-0. That's without Westbrook too. STACKED !!!!!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[QRich3]

The only reason LeBron is even a DPOY candidate is media hype combined with him begging for the award at times.

He has statistically been nothing more than an average at best defender this season. Last year in the playoffs and regular season he also had a lot of moments where he was a liability on that end of the floor.

You are one funny dude. LeBron a liability on defense... The stuff people come up with jeez

I never once said LeBron was a liability on defense just that he has his moments where he is. And I don't care if that's because he doesn't care, is coasting, is tired from carrying a large load on offense, it's simply the fact. Hard to be a true DPOY when your team is statistically better on defense without you on the floor. Or when your synergy stats show that you aren't defending at anything above an average level. Hell, Durant is allowing his opponent to score almost half as many points as LeBron is in isolation (1 on 1) situations.

LeBron currently is one of the most overrated defenders ever considering he actually was a runner up in the DPOY award last year while much more deserving guys like Hibbert didn't even crack the top 10 in voting.

I saw James Harden guard PF David Lee in the 4th Quarter the other day and actually do a decent job on him. The difference is unlike LeBron, he didn't get the commentators going crazy about how he's supposedly the only guy in the NBA capable of guarding multiple positions. Last year in the playoffs Durant guarded 2-5 and actually did a great job defensively on Marc Gasol. I didn't see the commentators making a big deal about that either.

Well said. Up until recently Lebron was a net negative on defense for his team. You know, the same team that still to this day has an average defense in the league. To even imply that he can be in the conversation for DPOY is a disrespect to the real DPOY calibre guys who never take a night off. Then again, he and Ibaka will be at the top of the nominations as usual, showing how clueless mainstream media still is. Possibly Deandre Jordan joining them this year to accentuate that point.

[MisterHibachi]

The only reason LeBron is even a DPOY candidate is media hype combined with him begging for the award at times.

He has statistically been nothing more than an average at best defender this season. Last year in the playoffs and regular season he also had a lot of moments where he was a liability on that end of the floor.

You are one funny dude. LeBron a liability on defense... The stuff people come up with jeez

I never once said LeBron was a liability on defense just that he has his moments where he is. And I don't care if that's because he doesn't care, is coasting, is tired from carrying a large load on offense, it's simply the fact. Hard to be a true DPOY when your team is statistically better on defense without you on the floor. Or when your synergy stats show that you aren't defending at anything above an average level. Hell, Durant is allowing his opponent to score almost half as many points as LeBron is in isolation (1 on 1) situations.

LeBron currently is one of the most overrated defenders ever considering he actually was a runner up in the DPOY award last year while much more deserving guys like Hibbert didn't even crack the top 10 in voting.

I saw James Harden guard PF David Lee in the 4th Quarter the other day and actually do a decent job on him. The difference is unlike LeBron, he didn't get the commentators going crazy about how he's supposedly the only guy in the NBA capable of guarding multiple positions. Last year in the playoffs Durant guarded 2-5 and actually did a great job defensively on Marc Gasol. I didn't see the commentators making a big deal about that either.

As I said, you're one funny dude.

[James Rustles]

You are one funny dude. LeBron a liability on defense... The stuff people come up with jeez

I never once said LeBron was a liability on defense just that he has his moments where he is. And I don't care if that's because he doesn't care, is coasting, is tired from carrying a large load on offense, it's simply the fact. Hard to be a true DPOY when your team is statistically better on defense without you on the floor. Or when your synergy stats show that you aren't defending at anything above an average level. Hell, Durant is allowing his opponent to score almost half as many points as LeBron is in isolation (1 on 1) situations.

LeBron currently is one of the most overrated defenders ever considering he actually was a runner up in the DPOY award last year while much more deserving guys like Hibbert didn't even crack the top 10 in voting.

I saw James Harden guard PF David Lee in the 4th Quarter the other day and actually do a decent job on him. The difference is unlike LeBron, he didn't get the commentators going crazy about how he's supposedly the only guy in the NBA capable of guarding multiple positions. Last year in the playoffs Durant guarded 2-5 and actually did a great job defensively on Marc Gasol. I didn't see the commentators making a big deal about that either.

As I said, you're one funny dude.

Shoot, if you want to prove to me that LeBron is an elite defender and use actual backings to your claims like say, his synergy stats in various defensive situations showing how his opponent performs, or stats of how the Heat are on defense with LeBron vs without him to show his impact on that end of the floor, then I'm all ears. Or even if you want to use the raw stats of steals and blocks (where he is averaging a career low in both areas...) to make your case, then I'll entertain that too.

But this whole "Just turn on ESPN; Stephen A Smith, Skip Bayless and those guys are calling him an elite defender. You'd be crazy to disagree with them." nonsense is for the birds. When I just scratch the surface with why LeBron isn't an elite defender and use just a few examples of why and you respond with "you're one funny dude" it makes it look like you have literally no argument and are just trying to avoid the debate while showing that you disagree.

[Antrim]

Of course LeBron is an elite defender. It's terribly foolish to say he isn't based on whatever he does in the RS, where he coasts most of the time.

You can argue that he doesn't deserve DPOY (he doesn't) regardless of what he says because he does coast throughout most of the season. Saying that he's not an elite defender or that his team is better defensively without him just makes you look like an ignorant or a fool.

[MisterHibachi]

Shoot, if you want to prove to me that LeBron is an elite defender and use actual backings to your claims like say, his synergy stats in various defensive situations showing how his opponent performs, or stats of how the Heat are on defense with LeBron vs without him to show his impact on that end of the floor, then I'm all ears. Or even if you want to use the raw stats of steals and blocks (where he is averaging a career low in both areas...) to make your case, then I'll entertain that too.

But this whole "Just turn on ESPN; Stephen A Smith, Skip Bayless and those guys are calling him an elite defender. You'd be crazy to disagree with them." nonsense is for the birds. When I just scratch the surface with why LeBron isn't an elite defender and use just a few examples of why and you respond with "you're one funny dude" it makes it look like you have literally no argument and are just trying to avoid the debate while showing that you disagree.

First off, it's hard to take you seriously when you're trying to argue that James Harden is a good defender.

Second, your initial comment was about last season, RS and playoffs. You said LeBron was a liability at times during last season. You quoting synergy stats for this season isn't gonna do anything to that point.

Third, Synergy stats are very flawed when evaluating individual defense. Heck, just look at their own description of how they chart the plays:

How we select the player - Synergy tracks the initial on ball defender for many playtypes. For example, an offensive player is in Isolation and blows by his defender (player A) and gets to the rim. A help defender (player B) rotates over to try and contest the shot. We attribute the defensive play to Player A, as he was the person was initially beaten on the play.

So, even in isolation, if a player gets blown by and there is help at the rim causing the driver to miss, that miss attributed to the initial defender. Make or miss, that drive is attributed to the initial defender. In cases where the driver makes the shot, this makes sense, because it really is his fault the guy drove past him in isolation. But in cases of a missed shot, it's faulty when he's assigned the credit for the help defender's rotation which really is the reason the guy missed the shot.

So forgive me if I'm not gonna base my opinions on a player's defense on synergy stats. Most advanced stats relating to defense factor in team defense a lot, which is understandable because defense is rarely 1-on-1. Help defense is a bigger part of defense than man to man, and that rarely shows up in box scores.

Sorry, but its hard to take you seriously given what you've posted in this thread. 'Kobe better than LeBron until 2012', 'LeBron isn't an elite defender', 'I saw Harden do a good job on defense once, he must be a great defender'. C'mon what is that?

[James Rustles]

I never once said James Harden was a good defender.

My "Durant isn't better than LeBron just like LeBron wasn't better than Kobe until 2012" post was sarcasm to show people why you don't say a player isn't the best in the NBA simply because he hasn't won a title yet.

Not sure what relevance those posts have though.

[xStanton27]

Shoot, if you want to prove to me that LeBron is an elite defender and use actual backings to your claims like say, his synergy stats in various defensive situations showing how his opponent performs, or stats of how the Heat are on defense with LeBron vs without him to show his impact on that end of the floor, then I'm all ears. Or even if you want to use the raw stats of steals and blocks (where he is averaging a career low in both areas...) to make your case, then I'll entertain that too.

But this whole "Just turn on ESPN; Stephen A Smith, Skip Bayless and those guys are calling him an elite defender. You'd be crazy to disagree with them." nonsense is for the birds. When I just scratch the surface with why LeBron isn't an elite defender and use just a few examples of why and you respond with "you're one funny dude" it makes it look like you have literally no argument and are just trying to avoid the debate while showing that you disagree.

Sure, we've seen him time and time again lock down elite players from a variety of positions. Also, nothing in his athleticism or game indicates that he can't continue to do that when he wants to. Sure, he's not eliminating a player from the game night in and night out but who is? To question his defensive ability is pretty silly to me.

[Jipluralx]

I never once said LeBron was a liability on defense just that he has his moments where he is. And I don't care if that's because he doesn't care, is coasting, is tired from carrying a large load on offense, it's simply the fact. Hard to be a true DPOY when your team is statistically better on defense without you on the floor. Or when your synergy stats show that you aren't defending at anything above an average level. Hell, Durant is allowing his opponent to score almost half as many points as LeBron is in isolation (1 on 1) situations.

LeBron currently is one of the most overrated defenders ever considering he actually was a runner up in the DPOY award last year while much more deserving guys like Hibbert didn't even crack the top 10 in voting.

I saw James Harden guard PF David Lee in the 4th Quarter the other day and actually do a decent job on him. The difference is unlike LeBron, he didn't get the commentators going crazy about how he's supposedly the only guy in the NBA capable of guarding multiple positions. Last year in the playoffs Durant guarded 2-5 and actually did a great job defensively on Marc Gasol. I didn't see the commentators making a big deal about that either.

As I said, you're one funny dude.

Shoot, if you want to prove to me that LeBron is an elite defender and use actual backings to your claims like say, his synergy stats in various defensive situations showing how his opponent performs, or stats of how the Heat are on defense with LeBron vs without him to show his impact on that end of the floor, then I'm all ears. Or even if you want to use the raw stats of steals and blocks (where he is averaging a career low in both areas...) to make your case, then I'll entertain that too.

But this whole "Just turn on ESPN; Stephen A Smith, Skip Bayless and those guys are calling him an elite defender. You'd be crazy to disagree with them." nonsense is for the birds. When I just scratch the surface with why LeBron isn't an elite defender and use just a few examples of why and you respond with "you're one funny dude" it makes it look like you have literally no argument and are just trying to avoid the debate while showing that you disagree.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3O94yv4vc[/youtube]

Just use your eyes! I know you can do it.

[James Rustles]

As I said, you're one funny dude.

Shoot, if you want to prove to me that LeBron is an elite defender and use actual backings to your claims like say, his synergy stats in various defensive situations showing how his opponent performs, or stats of how the Heat are on defense with LeBron vs without him to show his impact on that end of the floor, then I'm all ears. Or even if you want to use the raw stats of steals and blocks (where he is averaging a career low in both areas...) to make your case, then I'll entertain that too.

But this whole "Just turn on ESPN; Stephen A Smith, Skip Bayless and those guys are calling him an elite defender. You'd be crazy to disagree with them." nonsense is for the birds. When I just scratch the surface with why LeBron isn't an elite defender and use just a few examples of why and you respond with "you're one funny dude" it makes it look like you have literally no argument and are just trying to avoid the debate while showing that you disagree.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3O94yv4vc[/youtube]

Just use your eyes! I know you can do it.

Brandon Jennings is an elite scorer in this league.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFZVsHihd_g[/youtube]

Use your eyes, I know you can do it.

[Antrim]

Comparing a guy having a hot night with the defensive clinic James is giving (and has given throughout his career, for example in the last two Finals which I assume you didn't pay much attention to) in the other video... You're not doing yourself any favors here.