2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[sophie23]

Wow. At the start of the year, i didnt see people claiming that Houston has a stacked roster. In fact, I saw a lot of posters predicting that wouldnt even make the playoffs. Now apparently they are apparently stacked...

In the D'antoni system that include around 50% of 3-point shots, no mid-range shots, stretching defense, penetrating, catch-and-shoot. Few believe in D'antoni but his system pay-off. He needeed solid high-percentage 3 point shooters and with D'antoni system their are stacked.

If this roster was, for example, in Toronto it wont end up well.



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[mihail_petkov]

I know, and my rebuttal is that voting shouldn't be based on past precedent that wasn't really logical to begin with. Same reason I thought Harden should have won 2 years ago.

Honestly if you're arguing Harden vs. Westbrook and are using that logic, you'd be more logical in voting Leonard over both.

No, because Leonard is not even close as most important player on his team. Without him Spurs are still a 45-50 wins team. It's a race between Westbrook and Harden. No one of them deserve to win more than the other, but we can't split the MVP. So we have to give the award to someone of them and it's Harden because of the previous voting. The other way is to flip a coin

In that case, swap Kawhi and Lebron, because without him Cleveland is in the lottery too.

I can't agree with you. LeBron is a special case. His teammates and the whole system is build to maximize his strengths. That's why I don't like the stats for the games when he hasn't played. Same as Warriors now. Same core as last year but they are awful since Durant's injury. It's because Kerr changed the whole system to fit Durant's needs instead of finding a way to put Durant in their system. If they have one summer without Durant, GS will be close to 2015 and 2016 again. Same argument is valid for Cleveland. Give them one training camp and RS to improve the system without LeBron and they are a 50 wins team.

[sophie23]

Wow. At the start of the year, i didnt see people claiming that Houston has a stacked roster. In fact, I saw a lot of posters predicting that wouldnt even make the playoffs. Now apparently they are apparently stacked...

In the D'antoni system that includes around 50% of 3-point shots, no mid-range shots, stretching defense, penetrating, catch-and-shoot. Few believes in D'antoni system but his system pays-off. He needeed solid high-percentage 3 point shooters and with D'antoni system their are stacked.

If this roster was, for example, in Toronto it wont end up well.



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[inDe_eD]

Wow. At the start of the year, i didnt see people claiming that Houston has a stacked roster. In fact, I saw a lot of posters predicting that wouldnt even make the playoffs. Now apparently they are apparently stacked...

The over/under for the Spurs was at 55 (or 54.5, I'd have to look at what I bet exactly). Looks like I'm going to win that one with 13 games to spare.

[inquisitive]

Wow. At the start of the year, i didnt see people claiming that Houston has a stacked roster. In fact, I saw a lot of posters predicting that wouldnt even make the playoffs. Now apparently they are apparently stacked...

you just said it best.

[bondom34]

No, because Leonard is not even close as most important player on his team. Without him Spurs are still a 45-50 wins team. It's a race between Westbrook and Harden. No one of them deserve to win more than the other, but we can't split the MVP. So we have to give the award to someone of them and it's Harden because of the previous voting. The other way is to flip a coin

In that case, swap Kawhi and Lebron, because without him Cleveland is in the lottery too.

I can't agree with you. LeBron is a special case. His teammates and the whole system is build to maximize his strengths. That's why I don't like the stats for the games when he hasn't played. Same as Warriors now. Same core as last year but they are awful since Durant's injury. It's because Kerr changed the whole system to fit Durant's needs instead of finding a way to put Durant in their system. If they have one summer without Durant, GS will be close to 2015 and 2016 again. Same argument is valid for Cleveland. Give them one training camp and RS to improve the system without LeBron and they are a 50 wins team.

MDA has taken worse casts to have decent offensive teams as well. You can play that with any team.

[PCProductions]

I've never seen hard evidence it's actually more difficult to lift a team to 55 wins than 45 or 35, this would be entirely dependent on teammates. And even by that I just showed the issue with OKC isn't the starters, it's the bench. Which again points to the same value being added by the players but the arbitrary cutoff of his bench sucking the wins down.

Are you saying that you need evidence that it's harder to improve a team by 10 wins from a 45 win start than 35?

[bondom34]

I've never seen hard evidence it's actually more difficult to lift a team to 55 wins than 45 or 35, this would be entirely dependent on teammates. And even by that I just showed the issue with OKC isn't the starters, it's the bench. Which again points to the same value being added by the players but the arbitrary cutoff of his bench sucking the wins down.

Are you saying that you need evidence that it's harder to improve a team by 10 wins from a 45 win start than 35?

Yes

By that argument I could argue Westbrook had a better case last year than this year for MVP. Because he lifted a team to a better win total then.

[PCProductions]

Yes

By that argument I could argue Westbrook had a better case last year than this year for MVP. Because he lifted a team to a better win total then.

OK well have you ever heard of a normal distribution? The probability of each progressive win decreases as you approach 82 wins. This is statistics 101 type stuff here, nothing open or unanswered about it.

[bondom34]

Yes

By that argument I could argue Westbrook had a better case last year than this year for MVP. Because he lifted a team to a better win total then.

OK well have you ever heard of a normal distribution? The probability of each progressive win decreases as you approach 82 wins. This is statistics 101 type stuff here, nothing open or unanswered about it.

Yes, I understand that. But claiming it's "easier" to improve a worse team doesn't take into account teammates or time spent on the bench. OKC's had the worst bench in the league by BPM, so even if you assume he's lifting them to 45 wins, the bench is dragging out wins.

[TMU]

My only beef with OKC is that Steven Adams is too talented to be putting up pedestrian numbers. Unleash him! Feed him!

[bondom34]

My only beef with OKC is that Steven Adams is too talented to be putting up pedestrian numbers. Unleash him! Feed him!

Yo I'm pissed too.

Well the bench too, and tbh not a Donovan fan.

[ocelot17]

Are people seriously giving the MVP to Westbrook because he's averaging only 2 more rebounds than harden?

Like I said before, Harden is averaging 29 points, 11 assists, 8 rebounds.

Face it, harden has the individual numbers and his team has the 3rd best record in the league. He's got Westbrook beat at everything.

How is this even a discussion?

Watch on YouTube

Ok you have an argument. But face it. Nothing is certain. Face it,
You constantly showing his positive numbers but you don't write bout his defense, turnovers, great system players on roster.

You dont write about the fact that there was no mvp winner with 3rd seed team since we cant remember even.

You dont write about the fact that two great players like Kawhi and Lebron have first seed, that Lebron is getting triple doubles lately, getting mvp numbers, that Kawhi has first seed and is best player on best team.

And there is a saying 'when two quarrels, a third wins'

There will be a tight race and you write like it is a locked up, huge margin front-runner

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1. The fact that you still believe the narrative that harden is bad defensively this season, tells me you haven't really watched many rockets game. I can't find the link but statistically, but Westbrook is a worse defender than harden.

Yes, Harden leads the league in turnovers but guess who's in second place? Westbrook.

Great system players? You mean ariza, Anderson, Beverley? Those are called role players. They shoot 3s in a league where every team shoots 3s. Rockets are only shooting 36% from 3 as a team, which puts them in 15th place in the NBA.

2. If there hasn't been an MVP from a 3rd seeded team then Westbrook definitely doesn't have a chance.

3. Kawhi is having a great season, but like another poster said, Leonard is not nearly important to his team like harden or Westbrook. Without Leonard, Spurs are still a 50 win playoff team.

Lebron plays in the east, has two stars and the deepest team. Plus, he takes games off.

I didn't say harden had the MVP locked up. He's the most deserving and should be the front runner by a large margin, but I realize he's probably going to lose because the media is obsessed with Westbrook's triple double, regardless of his record. That's all they talk about.

[TMU]

My only beef with OKC is that Steven Adams is too talented to be putting up pedestrian numbers. Unleash him! Feed him!

Yo I'm pissed too.

Well the bench too, and tbh not a Donovan fan.

I'm a big advocate of player's coach and I think Donovan fits the mold. I also like OKC's frontcourt. This is the frontcourt that gave a lot of trouble to GSW last season. The addition of Taj Gibson was a solid move as well and I think he will come along. The problem remains that they don't have anyone else who can stretch the floor. The bench is definitely weak, which is why Westbrook doesn't rely on it as much.

[bondom34]

My only beef with OKC is that Steven Adams is too talented to be putting up pedestrian numbers. Unleash him! Feed him!

Yo I'm pissed too.

Well the bench too, and tbh not a Donovan fan.

I'm a big advocate of player's coach and I think Donovan fits the mold. I also like OKC's frontcourt. This is the frontcourt that gave a lot of trouble to GSW last season. The addition of Taj Gibson was a solid move as well and I think he will come along. The problem remains that they don't have anyone else who can stretch the floor. The bench is definitely weak, which is why Westbrook doesn't rely on it as much.

Unfortunately he also has to drag it back with the starters way too much. Posted the numbers a page or 2 ago, but they're somehow worse than the Nets bench.

[AdagioPace]

I keep stumbling upon discussions about how the Spurs would be more resilient to Kawhi's absence than any other mvp's team
For one time I keep asking myself,why focusing only on "how negative" would be the difference (focusing on the floor) and not about how much worse would be their ceiling.

Kawhi is not the ideal floor-lifter (ala DRob) but I doubt there are better versatile ceiling-lifter for a 50 wins team than him. Put Kawhi on the Celtics,Raptors,OKC and they would start flirting with 65-67 wins and become instant contenders. He provides defense,Off.ball, on-ball qualities that make him less prone to overlap with any kind of star. That's not something you could say about every superstars. Often it's given for granted that two superstars are going to work no matter what. Nothing more naive.

For example Durant-Westbrook OKC always gave me the idea of a talented team but with somehow a limited ceiling by falling on the same usual mistakes and insisting on a monochord style.

[Torchmode]

Spurs without Kawhi or even Aldridge would still be a 50 win team. They wouldnt go anywhere in the playoffs but they would win 50 games for sure.

Spurs are like a great college program, doesent matter who the players are, they will have a good team with their coaching and system alone.

[PCProductions]

Yes, I understand that. But claiming it's "easier" to improve a worse team doesn't take into account teammates or time spent on the bench. OKC's had the worst bench in the league by BPM, so even if you assume he's lifting them to 45 wins, the bench is dragging out wins.

Then in that case, he might be improving them by 20 wins. But that doesn't mean he's improving a 45 win team to 65.

[bondom34]

Yes, I understand that. But claiming it's "easier" to improve a worse team doesn't take into account teammates or time spent on the bench. OKC's had the worst bench in the league by BPM, so even if you assume he's lifting them to 45 wins, the bench is dragging out wins.

Then in that case, he might be improving them by 20 wins. But that doesn't mean he's improving a 45 win team to 65.

And it doesn't mean he wouldn't. He wasn't more valuable last year, but was on a better team.

[PCProductions]

Yes, I understand that. But claiming it's "easier" to improve a worse team doesn't take into account teammates or time spent on the bench. OKC's had the worst bench in the league by BPM, so even if you assume he's lifting them to 45 wins, the bench is dragging out wins.

Then in that case, he might be improving them by 20 wins. But that doesn't mean he's improving a 45 win team to 65.

And it doesn't mean he wouldn't. He wasn't more valuable last year, but was on a better team.

For the record, it's 20 wins to an "average team" we're talking about here. Of course it boils down to context, but when we make these "wins/SRS added" definitions to a player, we mean in the context of a 41 win team and scale it relative to the base wins of the team you're adding that player to.

Check out this page if you're curious to learn more about it:

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