The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[anish23]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

Are you seriously looking at a "fun all-star game" whr ppl were just having fun as a barometer for selecting ROY?
Have you watched Mitchell play?

Mitchell is clearly the ROY so far and it's not a knock on Simmons, Simmons has been epic.

[deflated]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

Debate is great, having the same discussion repeatedly with each group of fans gets frustrating. The Lonzo fans got started early, downplaying Simmons great start with talk of leadership and on/off impact. Then we got Kuzma boosters to keep the Laker's narrative going. Tatum got a huge push from the Celtics faithful when he was on fire; teams would be exploiting Simmons' lack of a 3pt game any day now while Tatum's elite 3 and D game was going to stand up as the class of the rookies. Now we're on to Mitchell, scoring at an amazing rate for a rookie.

All through this Simmons is consistently churning out one of the best/crazy rookie seasons in the last 40 years. This is a 6'10" rookie PG leading all players in touches while playing 35 minutes a night. He is on track to make an All-Defence team as a rookie, with advanced stats placing him in the top 10 defenders overall. He's got the 6 triple doubles and 4th in APG for the shiny stats. His team has gone from 1st overall pick to be projected to finish 4th in the east (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-nba-predictions/) with him running the show. For all qualified rookies he's either 1st or 2nd in every major statistical category.

Mitchell is great, similar to Lillard, Kyrie or Evans in their rookie years; he has a long way to go to catch Simmons.

[cl2117]

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

Debate is great, having the same discussion repeatedly with each group of fans gets frustrating. The Lonzo fans got started early, downplaying Simmons great start with talk of leadership and on/off impact. Then we got Kuzma boosters to keep the Laker's narrative going. Tatum got a huge push from the Celtics faithful when he was on fire; teams would be exploiting Simmons' lack of a 3pt game any day now while Tatum's elite 3 and D game was going to stand up as the class of the rookies. Now we're on to Mitchell, scoring at an amazing rate for a rookie.

All through this Simmons is consistently churning out one of the best/crazy rookie seasons in the last 40 years. This is a 6'10" rookie PG leading all players in touches while playing 35 minutes a night. He is on track to make an All-Defence team as a rookie, with advanced stats placing him in the top 10 defenders overall. He's got the 6 triple doubles and 4th in APG for the shiny stats. His team has gone from 1st overall pick to be projected to finish 4th in the east (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-nba-predictions/) with him running the show. For all qualified rookies he's either 1st or 2nd in every major statistical category.

Mitchell is great, similar to Lillard, Kyrie or Evans in their rookie years; he has a long way to go to catch Simmons.

If you're tired of having a discussion about how the best rookies are doing, then you're in the wrong thread. If you want a thread dedicated to fawning over Simmons alone, I'm sure you can find one on the Sixers board.

Simmons is an absolute beast. I have nothing but good things to say about him. That doesn't mean I can't look at what Mitchell is doing in Utah and acknowledge that his impact and case for ROY is arguably on par with Simmons.

What you seem discontent with is other teams' fans downplaying Simmons in order to pump their own rookies' tires, which I agree is annoying and stupid. Similar to someone refusing to acknowledge that Mitchell at this stage in the season has put together a case worthy of debate for ROY even with what Simmons is doing in Philly (which I acknowledge is totally impressive and absolutely worthy of ROY).

[bebopdeluxe]

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

Debate is great, having the same discussion repeatedly with each group of fans gets frustrating. The Lonzo fans got started early, downplaying Simmons great start with talk of leadership and on/off impact. Then we got Kuzma boosters to keep the Laker's narrative going. Tatum got a huge push from the Celtics faithful when he was on fire; teams would be exploiting Simmons' lack of a 3pt game any day now while Tatum's elite 3 and D game was going to stand up as the class of the rookies. Now we're on to Mitchell, scoring at an amazing rate for a rookie.

All through this Simmons is consistently churning out one of the best/crazy rookie seasons in the last 40 years. This is a 6'10" rookie PG leading all players in touches while playing 35 minutes a night. He is on track to make an All-Defence team as a rookie, with advanced stats placing him in the top 10 defenders overall. He's got the 6 triple doubles and 4th in APG for the shiny stats. His team has gone from 1st overall pick to be projected to finish 4th in the east (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-nba-predictions/) with him running the show. For all qualified rookies he's either 1st or 2nd in every major statistical category.

Mitchell is great, similar to Lillard, Kyrie or Evans in their rookie years; he has a long way to go to catch Simmons.

If you're tired of having a discussion about how the best rookies are doing, then you're in the wrong thread. If you want a thread dedicated to fawning over Simmons alone, I'm sure you can find one on the Sixers board.

Simmons is an absolute beast. I have nothing but good things to say about him. That doesn't mean I can't look at what Mitchell is doing in Utah and acknowledge that his impact and case for ROY is arguably on par with Simmons.

What you seem discontent with is other teams' fans downplaying Simmons in order to pump their own rookies' tires, which I agree is annoying and stupid. Similar to someone refusing to acknowledge that Mitchell at this stage in the season has put together a case worthy of debate for ROY even with what Simmons is doing in Philly (which I acknowledge is totally impressive and absolutely worthy of ROY).

I am fine with having a discussion/debate about Mitchell’s candidacy for ROY. That is what this thread is for - right?

My post is the fact-and-statisical case for Simmons’ candidacy. I am not including more “soft” aspects of it, like being the point guard for a team that has played the hardest SOS in the NBA this season, and has already passed their year-ago win record at the All-Star break. I am not referencing the connection between the Jazz’s recent excellence and Rudy Gobert’s return from injury. I am not pointing out that, despite the Jazz’s success, Mitchell is FOURTH on his team in WS and VORP, despite having the highest USG% rate on his team.

You say that Mitchell’s candidacy is “arguably on par” with Simmons. OK - argue it. This is the place for it. I am not an “arrogant fanboy” that needs to go back to the Sixers board. I am debating my position for Simmons as the clear ROY in the “ROY” thread on the General Board. If you truly believe that Mitchell is “arguably on par” with Simmons, then argue the point. I would love to hear it.

Thanks.

[bebopdeluxe]

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

Are you seriously looking at a "fun all-star game" whr ppl were just having fun as a barometer for selecting ROY?
Have you watched Mitchell play?

Mitchell is clearly the ROY so far and it's not a knock on Simmons, Simmons has been epic.

I say to you what I just said to the other poster in this thread. I have laid out my case - both statistically as well as contribution-to-team-success for Simmons. If you believe that Mitchell is “clearly” the ROY, that’s great - just substantiate that position. Use facts and statical comparisons. Use impact on team (WS, VORP, etc) as well.

To the board - I am not trying to be an “arrogant fanboy” in support of Simmons. I believe he is the ROY, and I do not believe it is close. I have also provided both statistical and impact-to-team-success data to support my position. If fans of Mitchell believe he is the clear ROY, all that I ask is provide more than just “DUDE GETS BUCKETS YO” or “OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK” to support your position. And if that is all you have, then that is fine too.

[dr0welf]

This same Mitchell game Josh Jackson also had 22 points 7 rebounds on 10-15 FG%

Not one mention of him. I know he's not in the running for ROY but damn he is also a rookie too putting up a nice stretch of games as of late

Jackson had an awesome game. He has some solid potential in the future as he continues to work on his game. In this game he was really fun to watch.

[bebopdeluxe]

What, EXACTLY, is “the noise” here? This is a thread discussing who should be ROY. The, ummm, “fanboys” (is that me?) are simply making our case - supported by virtually all statistical metrics except “POINTZZZ” - that Simmons has been the best rookie.

Last night was a microcosm of the race...Simmons utterly filling the stat line but OMG DID YOU SEE THAT DUNK YO???

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

Debate is great, having the same discussion repeatedly with each group of fans gets frustrating. The Lonzo fans got started early, downplaying Simmons great start with talk of leadership and on/off impact. Then we got Kuzma boosters to keep the Laker's narrative going. Tatum got a huge push from the Celtics faithful when he was on fire; teams would be exploiting Simmons' lack of a 3pt game any day now while Tatum's elite 3 and D game was going to stand up as the class of the rookies. Now we're on to Mitchell, scoring at an amazing rate for a rookie.

All through this Simmons is consistently churning out one of the best/crazy rookie seasons in the last 40 years. This is a 6'10" rookie PG leading all players in touches while playing 35 minutes a night. He is on track to make an All-Defence team as a rookie, with advanced stats placing him in the top 10 defenders overall. He's got the 6 triple doubles and 4th in APG for the shiny stats. His team has gone from 1st overall pick to be projected to finish 4th in the east (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-nba-predictions/) with him running the show. For all qualified rookies he's either 1st or 2nd in every major statistical category.

Mitchell is great, similar to Lillard, Kyrie or Evans in their rookie years; he has a long way to go to catch Simmons.

Great post. No knock on Mitchell - he is a future All-Star. I just want those who think that Mitchell should win ROY over Simmons to construct their case based on FACTS, STATISTICS and relative contribution to team success.

As much as I wanted Saric to win ROY, Brogdon had a better case - he had a statistically better season, and he was a key contributor to his team’s more successful season than Saric - regardless of Saric’s impressive play after Embiid went out. But if you are going to award the ROY to Brogdon over Saric based on that criteria, how can you award the ROY to Mitchell over Simmons with any intellectual consistency?

[bebopdeluxe]

By the way, I continue to be impressed with Markkanen - he looks like an absolute STUD in the making. He has as much upside as anybody who played last night.

[cl2117]

Deleted. Nevermind. Not wasting my time on fanboys.

[bebopdeluxe]

Great article earlier this week in the Washington Post looking at the Simmons vs. Mitchell debate -

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2018/02/14/ben-simmons-is-more-deserving-than-donovan-mitchell-of-nba-rookie-of-the-year/?utm_term=.dd2219011f1b

[macNcheese3]

Mitchell should be ROY

[bebopdeluxe]

Deleted. Nevermind. Not wasting my time.

Glad I got a chance to read it before you deleted it. QUALITY post there.

Pretty weak sauce to slag on “arrogant fanboys”...but when somebody asks you to “put up or shut up” all you have is snark.

Nice.

Whenever you want to have an actual debate, let me know.

[bebopdeluxe]

Mitchell should be ROY

.

[cl2117]

Deleted. Nevermind. Not wasting my time.

Glad I got a chance to read it before you deleted it. QUALITY post there.

Pretty weak sauce to slag on “arrogant fanboys”...but when somebody asks you to “put up or shut up” all you have is snark.

Nice.

Whenever you want to have an actual debate, let me know.

You don't want to have a debate. You have your mind made-up and say fanboy stuff like "POINTZZZ". Real quality there. I can see why 289 people have agreed with you at some stage...

[bebopdeluxe]

Deleted. Nevermind. Not wasting my time.

Glad I got a chance to read it before you deleted it. QUALITY post there.

Pretty weak sauce to slag on “arrogant fanboys”...but when somebody asks you to “put up or shut up” all you have is snark.

Nice.

Whenever you want to have an actual debate, let me know.

You don't want to have a debate. You have your mind made-up and say fanboy stuff like "POINTZZZ". Real quality there. I can see why 289 people have agreed with you at some stage...

Nice deflection. I am happy to have a debate with you about this. I have presents my facts and statistics that are the basis for my position as it relates to Simmons. Please provide your case for Mitchell.

Either make your case for Mitchell (as I have for Simmons) or take the L.

[bebopdeluxe]

.

[cl2117]

Glad I got a chance to read it before you deleted it. QUALITY post there.

Pretty weak sauce to slag on “arrogant fanboys”...but when somebody asks you to “put up or shut up” all you have is snark.

Nice.

Whenever you want to have an actual debate, let me know.

You don't want to have a debate. You have your mind made-up and say fanboy stuff like "POINTZZZ". Real quality there. I can see why 289 people have agreed with you at some stage...

Nice deflection. Either make your case for Mitchell (as I have for Simmons) or take the L.

Mitchell gets POINTZZZ...

How's that?

Seriously if you've actually read any of this thread or watched any of Mitchell and you haven't seen a case as to why he should be in consideration for ROY, then there isn't anything I'm going to say to change your mind. You may be blinded by some substance in your eyes from hanging all over a certain very worthy ROY candidate....

POINTZZZZZ

[bebopdeluxe]

You don't want to have a debate. You have your mind made-up and say fanboy stuff like "POINTZZZ". Real quality there. I can see why 289 people have agreed with you at some stage...

Nice deflection. Either make your case for Mitchell (as I have for Simmons) or take the L.

Mitchell gets POINTZZZ...

How's that?

Seriously if you've actually read any of this thread or watched any of Mitchell and you haven't seen a case as to why he should be in consideration for ROY, then there isn't anything I'm going to say to change your mind. You may be blinded by some substance in your eyes from hanging all over a certain very worthy ROY candidate....

POINTZZZZZ

I have never said he should not be considered for the award. He is having a fantastic season, as are Tatum, Markkanen and others.

However, in my opinion, Ben Simmons is the clear front-runner for the NBA Rookie of the Year award, and I have posted a fair amount of statistical analysis to bolster my opinion (read the Washington Post article I just posted in this thread for a point of view from someone who is not an “arrogant fanboy”).

If you primary position - your basis for Mitchell - is POINTZZZ, that is fine. The debate between us is done.

Have a nice day.

[Cappy_Smurf]

If Mitchell was this seasons number 1 pick and Simmons was picked where Mitchell was, would this even be a debate?

Read on Twitter

Lmao at people still trying to argue Mitchell isn't even in the conversation.

[michaelm]

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

Debate is great, having the same discussion repeatedly with each group of fans gets frustrating. The Lonzo fans got started early, downplaying Simmons great start with talk of leadership and on/off impact. Then we got Kuzma boosters to keep the Laker's narrative going. Tatum got a huge push from the Celtics faithful when he was on fire; teams would be exploiting Simmons' lack of a 3pt game any day now while Tatum's elite 3 and D game was going to stand up as the class of the rookies. Now we're on to Mitchell, scoring at an amazing rate for a rookie.

All through this Simmons is consistently churning out one of the best/crazy rookie seasons in the last 40 years. This is a 6'10" rookie PG leading all players in touches while playing 35 minutes a night. He is on track to make an All-Defence team as a rookie, with advanced stats placing him in the top 10 defenders overall. He's got the 6 triple doubles and 4th in APG for the shiny stats. His team has gone from 1st overall pick to be projected to finish 4th in the east (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-nba-predictions/) with him running the show. For all qualified rookies he's either 1st or 2nd in every major statistical category.

Mitchell is great, similar to Lillard, Kyrie or Evans in their rookie years; he has a long way to go to catch Simmons.

Great post. No knock on Mitchell - he is a future All-Star. I just want those who think that Mitchell should win ROY over Simmons to construct their case based on FACTS, STATISTICS and relative contribution to team success.

As much as I wanted Saric to win ROY, Brogdon had a better case - he had a statistically better season, and he was a key contributor to his team’s more successful season than Saric - regardless of Saric’s impressive play after Embiid went out. But if you are going to award the ROY to Brogdon over Saric based on that criteria, how can you award the ROY to Mitchell over Simmons with any intellectual consistency?

I am a Simmons partisan, and agree with most of what you and others say, but just now Utah are winning and Mitchell is contributing to same. If Utah continue in their current vein for the rest of the season then it will be hard to go past Mitchell imo. Whethet that is likely to happen is a different question, but just now Utah are playing pretty much the best basketball in the NBA.