The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[deflated]

Do you think that there isn't even a case for debate for Mitchell vs. Simmons, even if in your opinion Simmons is the clear winner? Then yes, you are one of the annoying fanboys I'm talking about.

Yes this is a thread about who should be ROY, the people coming in here and saying "Simmons end of thread" are the "noise". All well and good if you think Simmons is the clear winner, but if you don't even think there should be a debate, then you're just annoying (and wrong).

Debate is great, having the same discussion repeatedly with each group of fans gets frustrating. The Lonzo fans got started early, downplaying Simmons great start with talk of leadership and on/off impact. Then we got Kuzma boosters to keep the Laker's narrative going. Tatum got a huge push from the Celtics faithful when he was on fire; teams would be exploiting Simmons' lack of a 3pt game any day now while Tatum's elite 3 and D game was going to stand up as the class of the rookies. Now we're on to Mitchell, scoring at an amazing rate for a rookie.

All through this Simmons is consistently churning out one of the best/crazy rookie seasons in the last 40 years. This is a 6'10" rookie PG leading all players in touches while playing 35 minutes a night. He is on track to make an All-Defence team as a rookie, with advanced stats placing him in the top 10 defenders overall. He's got the 6 triple doubles and 4th in APG for the shiny stats. His team has gone from 1st overall pick to be projected to finish 4th in the east (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-nba-predictions/) with him running the show. For all qualified rookies he's either 1st or 2nd in every major statistical category.

Mitchell is great, similar to Lillard, Kyrie or Evans in their rookie years; he has a long way to go to catch Simmons.

If you're tired of having a discussion about how the best rookies are doing, then you're in the wrong thread. If you want a thread dedicated to fawning over Simmons alone, I'm sure you can find one on the Sixers board.

Simmons is an absolute beast. I have nothing but good things to say about him. That doesn't mean I can't look at what Mitchell is doing in Utah and acknowledge that his impact and case for ROY is arguably on par with Simmons.

What you seem discontent with is other teams' fans downplaying Simmons in order to pump their own rookies' tires, which I agree is annoying and stupid. Similar to someone refusing to acknowledge that Mitchell at this stage in the season has put together a case worthy of debate for ROY even with what Simmons is doing in Philly (which I acknowledge is totally impressive and absolutely worthy of ROY).

Not wanting to pile on as you're a neutral with well-stated opinions but honestly I'm not sure Mitchell is the ROTY discussion except at a very shallow level. I think Mitchell would have won ROTY, based on his season to date, in 2017, 2015, 2014 and 2012; he's having a great season. Unfortunately for him Simmons is putting together a total outlier of a rookie season with a crazy mix of skills.

[macNcheese3]

Mitchell is the head runner. Simmons, Tatum, etc have played well. But for petes sake.

[michaelm]

Mitchell is the head runner. Simmons, Tatum, etc have played well. But for petes sake.

Mitchell is the head runner. Simmons, Tatum, etc have played well. But for petes sake.

Based on the last 11 games Mitchell is the ROTY.

It is a whole season award however, and I believe on that basis Simmons has outperformed Mitchell particularly since the Sixers beat Utah both times. If Mitchell and Utah continue in their current vein for the rest of the season it is different of course.

[bebopdeluxe]

If Mitchell was this seasons number 1 pick and Simmons was picked where Mitchell was, would this even be a debate?

Read on Twitter

Lmao at people still trying to argue Mitchell isn't even in the conversation.

Again - I am not saying that he shouldn’t be in the conversation, but in my view it is too simplistic to say that because Mitchell is scoring the most points he is the single biggest factor in their recent winning streak.

For example, do you think it is pure coincidence that the Jazz’s recent play ties to the return to the lineup of Rudy Gobert?

Gobert has had two recent periods where he was out - the most recent one was for 15 games, from December 15th to January 19th. During that atretch, the Jazz were 4-and-11. Since he came back, they are 12-and-2.

Sure seems like Gobert is the straw that stirs THAT drink.

The other point when Mitchell fans harp on his scoring - as impressive as it is - is that there are contributions to winning other than scoring - right? Obviously that is why Gobert is so key - he literally transforms their defense. When one looks at Simmons and what he does for the Sixers (who, incidentally, have a better overall record than the Jazz as well as a better record since January 1), his fingerprints are all over EVERYTHING...not just scoring, but assists, rebounds, blocks, steals...all things that impact the number of possessions the Sixers have. In addition, as the Washington Post article points out, Simmons is defending at a truly elite level - as opposed to Mitchell, where the Jazz defense is actually better per-100 possessions when he is OFF the floor (which, admittedly, is not unusual for a rookie). There is no question that Mitchell’s scoring is a key factor behind the Jazz’s recent success, but it could be argued that it is actually Gobert’s return - and the impact that has had throughout the roster - that is a bigger factor.

Lastly, the Sixers have a reasonable shot to not only make the playoffs but have home-court in the first round - a truly ridiculous feat for a team that only won 28 games last season...and by virtually every statistical metric, Simmons is leading the way. It will be very interesting to see how both teams finish up...I think that Milwaukee making the playoffs was a big feather in Brogdon’s cap when it was time to vote for ROY last season. Let’s see how the two teams finish up.

[Black Mage]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

A Celtics fan accusing others of being insufferable? Let me guess, you think Tommy Heinsohn is a fair and balanced color commentator.

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons numbers and had 6 triple doubles you and the entire Celtics fan base would be up in arms same as us Simmons fans.

[Mbrahv0528]

Mitchell is the head runner. Simmons, Tatum, etc have played well. But for petes sake.

Uh no? Simmons, "have played well", lol that hot take actually needs the Pete's sake fyi.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[LordCovington33]

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

I hope Ben does not have a fear of heights. It must be quite scary seeing the tops of heads so far down. Josh Jackson is still looking for company and Tatum has decided to get up close and personal with Ball whilst telling teammate Theis that he's got his back. Mitchell is showing great promise offensively, and Fultz is MIA pretty much reflecting his season thus far.

[Black Mage]

If Mitchell was this seasons number 1 pick and Simmons was picked where Mitchell was, would this even be a debate?

Read on Twitter

Lmao at people still trying to argue Mitchell isn't even in the conversation.

That's nice, and before that stretch the team was 4 and 11 with him as leading scorer. So what made the Jazz start winning?

Gobert returned. That is why they started winning.

[LordCovington33]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

A Celtics fan accusing others of being insufferable? Let me guess, you think Tommy Heinsohn is a fair and balanced color commentator.

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons numbers and had 6 triple doubles you and the entire Celtics fan base would be up in arms same as us Simmons fans.

I have been following the Jazz on FB since they signed Dante Exum (I was hoping the sixers would draft him at the time). Every time he puts up a good score, you have all these FBJazz fans dissing Simmons and saying how Mitchell is much more deserving. The Jazz are my second fav team because of Exum and Ingles, but the comments are so unbearable this last month that I choose not to read them anymore.

[Heej]

Seeing how poorly Josh Jackson and Justise Winslow and all these other non shooting wings are faring in the NBA, it really seems their lack of gravity has a far larger effect on the game than one would think. Wing help defense is huge nowadays because they're able to focus solely on preventing good shots on defense as opposed to bigs who also have to worry about preventing offensive rebounds every possession. Sure some wings crash the boards on offense but most just get back in transition.

And when wings can hang out in the paint and grab and go on rebounds it always leads to more effective offense. The feedback loop becomes more and more apparent every year. It's just so much more destructive to have a non shooting wing than it is at the end positions apparently so I'm not surprised at JJs poor impact stats. Teams are seriously gonna have to think about using late first rounders on these guys instead of lottery picks.

[cl2117]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

A Celtics fan accusing others of being insufferable? Let me guess, you think Tommy Heinsohn is a fair and balanced color commentator.

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons numbers and had 6 triple doubles you and the entire Celtics fan base would be up in arms same as us Simmons fans.

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons' numbers and Simmons was putting up Mitchell's you'd find Celtics fans insufferable if they refused to acknowledge Ben deserved to be in the conversation for ROY.

I have no idea what you have to be "up in arms" about. Please enlighten me.

Everyone acknowledges the truly impressive season Simmons is having. But if you can get off his jock for a single second, you'd recognize that Mitchell is having a truly impressive season of his own. That doesn't take anything away from Simmons, the man's success stands on it's own. It just means that you can respect another dude's greatness at the same time.

Ya'll are just proving my point. I'm not trashing Simmons one iota. I'm just pointing out how stupid it is to be such a fanboy that you can't even acknowledge the other guy who is in the conversation. Not even saying you can't think that Ben is the clear winner, but just saying that to suggest that he is alone in the conversation is foolish given what Mitchell is doing in Utah.

Again, if you're willing to acknowledge that Mitchell deserves to be in the conversation then I'm NOT referring to you. I'm just talking about the annoying people who want to downplay what Mitchell is doing just to pump Simmons tires, which is TOTALLY unnecessary because, as I said before, the man's accomplishments stand on their own. Just as Mitchell's do (which is why I have not ONCE said a negative thing about Simmons, just about those who can't see how good Mitchell has been because Ben's balls are resting on their forehead obstructing the view).

Simmons season is absolutely worthy of ROY. So is Mitchell's. You can think one is clearly better than the other's, but to say it's not worthy of discussion is foolish.

[Black Mage]

I'm voting for Mitchell purely because the Simmons fanboys refuse to even acknowledge that it's a debate between the two and I'm finding it insufferable.

Note: if you think that it's not already decided that Simmons is ROY then I'm obviously not talking about you.

I like Simmons, dude's a beast, but it's like Lonzo and Lavar. I'm just tired of the noise, even if it's not the player's fault (unfair, but so is life).

A Celtics fan accusing others of being insufferable? Let me guess, you think Tommy Heinsohn is a fair and balanced color commentator.

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons numbers and had 6 triple doubles you and the entire Celtics fan base would be up in arms same as us Simmons fans.

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons' numbers and Simmons was putting up Mitchell's you'd find Celtics fans insufferable if they refused to acknowledge Ben deserved to be in the conversation for ROY.

I have no idea what you have to be "up in arms" about. Please enlighten me.

Everyone acknowledges the truly impressive season Simmons is having. But if you can get off his jock for a single second, you'd recognize that Mitchell is having a truly impressive season of his own. That doesn't take anything away from Simmons, the man's success stands on it's own. It just means that you can respect another dude's greatness at the same time.

Ya'll are just proving my point. I'm not trashing Simmons one iota. I'm just pointing out how stupid it is to be such a fanboy that you can't even acknowledge the other guy who is in the conversation. Not even saying you can't think that Ben is the clear winner, but just saying that to suggest that he is alone in the conversation is foolish given what Mitchell is doing in Utah.

Again, if you're willing to acknowledge that Mitchell deserves to be in the conversation then I'm NOT referring to you. I'm just talking about the annoying people who want to downplay what Mitchell is doing just to pump Simmons tires, which is TOTALLY unnecessary because, as I said before, the man's accomplishments stand on their own. Just as Mitchell's do (which is why I have not ONCE said a negative thing about Simmons, just about those who can't see how good Mitchell has been because Ben's balls are resting on their forehead obstructing the view).

Simmons season is absolutely worthy of ROY. So is Mitchell's. You can think one is clearly better than the other's, but to say it's not worthy of discussion is foolish.

Now you are being disingenuous. Celtics fans would be out in full force if Tatum had Simmons year and people were claiming DM should win ROY or that it was even close.

[cl2117]

A Celtics fan accusing others of being insufferable? Let me guess, you think Tommy Heinsohn is a fair and balanced color commentator.

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons numbers and had 6 triple doubles you and the entire Celtics fan base would be up in arms same as us Simmons fans.

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons' numbers and Simmons was putting up Mitchell's you'd find Celtics fans insufferable if they refused to acknowledge Ben deserved to be in the conversation for ROY.

I have no idea what you have to be "up in arms" about. Please enlighten me.

Everyone acknowledges the truly impressive season Simmons is having. But if you can get off his jock for a single second, you'd recognize that Mitchell is having a truly impressive season of his own. That doesn't take anything away from Simmons, the man's success stands on it's own. It just means that you can respect another dude's greatness at the same time.

Ya'll are just proving my point. I'm not trashing Simmons one iota. I'm just pointing out how stupid it is to be such a fanboy that you can't even acknowledge the other guy who is in the conversation. Not even saying you can't think that Ben is the clear winner, but just saying that to suggest that he is alone in the conversation is foolish given what Mitchell is doing in Utah.

Again, if you're willing to acknowledge that Mitchell deserves to be in the conversation then I'm NOT referring to you. I'm just talking about the annoying people who want to downplay what Mitchell is doing just to pump Simmons tires, which is TOTALLY unnecessary because, as I said before, the man's accomplishments stand on their own. Just as Mitchell's do (which is why I have not ONCE said a negative thing about Simmons, just about those who can't see how good Mitchell has been because Ben's balls are resting on their forehead obstructing the view).

Simmons season is absolutely worthy of ROY. So is Mitchell's. You can think one is clearly better than the other's, but to say it's not worthy of discussion is foolish.

Now you are being disingenuous. Celtics fans would be out in full force if Tatum had Simmons year and people were claiming DM should win ROY or that it was even close.

And they'd be annoying as ****. That's the point!

I'm not saying C's fans wouldn't be. I can tell you I wouldn't be because I don't need to trash one guy to acknowledge the other.

If you'd find it annoying if another fan base was doing it and you're doing it, then guess what? You're probably annoying to everyone else!

[HotelVitale]

Based on the last 11 games Mitchell is the ROTY.

You might want to check out what Simmons has been up to his past 12 games. Sixers are 8-4 and Simmons is posting an efficient like 18/7/7 and more importantly is about a +90. Team success is about team success and the Jazz have a great ensemble cast, doesn't make any sense to start basing things on wins and losses without taking any context into account.

[michaelm]

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons' numbers and Simmons was putting up Mitchell's you'd find Celtics fans insufferable if they refused to acknowledge Ben deserved to be in the conversation for ROY.

I have no idea what you have to be "up in arms" about. Please enlighten me.

Everyone acknowledges the truly impressive season Simmons is having. But if you can get off his jock for a single second, you'd recognize that Mitchell is having a truly impressive season of his own. That doesn't take anything away from Simmons, the man's success stands on it's own. It just means that you can respect another dude's greatness at the same time.

Ya'll are just proving my point. I'm not trashing Simmons one iota. I'm just pointing out how stupid it is to be such a fanboy that you can't even acknowledge the other guy who is in the conversation. Not even saying you can't think that Ben is the clear winner, but just saying that to suggest that he is alone in the conversation is foolish given what Mitchell is doing in Utah.

Again, if you're willing to acknowledge that Mitchell deserves to be in the conversation then I'm NOT referring to you. I'm just talking about the annoying people who want to downplay what Mitchell is doing just to pump Simmons tires, which is TOTALLY unnecessary because, as I said before, the man's accomplishments stand on their own. Just as Mitchell's do (which is why I have not ONCE said a negative thing about Simmons, just about those who can't see how good Mitchell has been because Ben's balls are resting on their forehead obstructing the view).

Simmons season is absolutely worthy of ROY. So is Mitchell's. You can think one is clearly better than the other's, but to say it's not worthy of discussion is foolish.

Now you are being disingenuous. Celtics fans would be out in full force if Tatum had Simmons year and people were claiming DM should win ROY or that it was even close.

And they'd be annoying as ****. That's the point!

I'm not saying C's fans wouldn't be. I can tell you I wouldn't be because I don't need to trash one guy to acknowledge the other.

If you'd find it annoying if another fan base was doing it and you're doing it, then guess what? You're probably annoying to everyone else!

You are drawing generalised conclusions from a few individual posters as well.

What most Simmons partisans are saying is not that there is no discussion but that Ben Simmons all round game and statistics for the whole season trump Mitchell's better scoring ability, which has translated into a strong winning percentage for his team only rather recently, at this point in time.

If Utah continue for their next 25 games as they have for the last 10 or 11 Mitchell would go close to being MVP, not just ROTY, with Gobert probably out of the running for MVP even in that eventuality because of games missed.

[Black Mage]

Be real, if Tatum was putting up Simmons' numbers and Simmons was putting up Mitchell's you'd find Celtics fans insufferable if they refused to acknowledge Ben deserved to be in the conversation for ROY.

I have no idea what you have to be "up in arms" about. Please enlighten me.

Everyone acknowledges the truly impressive season Simmons is having. But if you can get off his jock for a single second, you'd recognize that Mitchell is having a truly impressive season of his own. That doesn't take anything away from Simmons, the man's success stands on it's own. It just means that you can respect another dude's greatness at the same time.

Ya'll are just proving my point. I'm not trashing Simmons one iota. I'm just pointing out how stupid it is to be such a fanboy that you can't even acknowledge the other guy who is in the conversation. Not even saying you can't think that Ben is the clear winner, but just saying that to suggest that he is alone in the conversation is foolish given what Mitchell is doing in Utah.

Again, if you're willing to acknowledge that Mitchell deserves to be in the conversation then I'm NOT referring to you. I'm just talking about the annoying people who want to downplay what Mitchell is doing just to pump Simmons tires, which is TOTALLY unnecessary because, as I said before, the man's accomplishments stand on their own. Just as Mitchell's do (which is why I have not ONCE said a negative thing about Simmons, just about those who can't see how good Mitchell has been because Ben's balls are resting on their forehead obstructing the view).

Simmons season is absolutely worthy of ROY. So is Mitchell's. You can think one is clearly better than the other's, but to say it's not worthy of discussion is foolish.

Now you are being disingenuous. Celtics fans would be out in full force if Tatum had Simmons year and people were claiming DM should win ROY or that it was even close.

And they'd be annoying as ****. That's the point!

I'm not saying C's fans wouldn't be. I can tell you I wouldn't be because I don't need to trash one guy to acknowledge the other.

If you'd find it annoying if another fan base was doing it and you're doing it, then guess what? You're probably annoying to everyone else!

I think the problem is Simmons supporters are asking DM supporters to use stats and metrics to establish a reason for DM over Simmons.

To date no one has, instead they say well Utah has won 11 in a row and he is their top scorer. But that argument is faulty for a few reasons. It's a small sample size for one. Two it ignores that DM was 4-11 as lead scorer and didn't start winning until Gobert returned and fixed their defense. Utah's points allowed improved when DM was off the court.

The only thing that makes DM's rookie season historic is that he is his teams leading scorer during a 11 game win streak. There is simply no rational reason to believe Utah wins 11 in a row without Gobert which means if Gobert hasn't returned then DM has no historic achievement.

By contrast Simmons is 1 triple double away from matching Magics rookie season which is historical by itself and isn't the product of some other player or happenstance.

[Cappy_Smurf]

I think the problem is Simmons supporters are asking DM supporters to use stats and metrics to establish a reason for DM over Simmons.

To date no one has, instead they say well Utah has won 11 in a row and he is their top scorer. .

Mitchell has been doing things very few rookies have ever done. First rook in 6 years to score 40+. One of only 4 rookies to ever have multiple 40 point games before all star break. In elite company as far as 30+ games as well, and everybody else on the list was a #1 pick overall. First rookie since freaking Wilt to be leading scorer of a team during an 11 game streak.

Simmons can't shoot the 3 and shoots free throws like Shaq. I think there's a legit question whether or not he'll become a liability in the 4th quarter, while Mitchell plays better in the 4th quarter than any other time.

There are a lot of aspects to the game that don't show up in stats and metrics, but I don't blame Simmons fans for wanting to make it all about the stats.

[sixerhp3]

I think the problem is Simmons supporters are asking DM supporters to use stats and metrics to establish a reason for DM over Simmons.

To date no one has, instead they say well Utah has won 11 in a row and he is their top scorer. .

Mitchell has been doing things very few rookies have ever done. First rook in 6 years to score 40+. One of only 4 rookies to ever have multiple 40 point games before all star break. In elite company as far as 30+ games as well, and everybody else on the list was a #1 pick overall. First rookie since freaking Wilt to be leading scorer of a team during an 11 game streak.

Simmons can't shoot the 3 and shoots free throws like Shaq. I think there's a legit question whether or not he'll become a liability in the 4th quarter, while Mitchell plays better in the 4th quarter than any other time.

There are a lot of aspects to the game that don't show up in stats and metrics, but I don't blame Simmons fans for wanting to make it all about the stats.

Simmons a liability in the 4th keep reaching man

[Black Mage]

I think the problem is Simmons supporters are asking DM supporters to use stats and metrics to establish a reason for DM over Simmons.

To date no one has, instead they say well Utah has won 11 in a row and he is their top scorer. .

Mitchell has been doing things very few rookies have ever done. First rook in 6 years to score 40+. One of only 4 rookies to ever have multiple 40 point games before all star break. In elite company as far as 30+ games as well, and everybody else on the list was a #1 pick overall. First rookie since freaking Wilt to be leading scorer of a team during an 11 game streak.

Simmons can't shoot the 3 and shoots free throws like Shaq. I think there's a legit question whether or not he'll become a liability in the 4th quarter, while Mitchell plays better in the 4th quarter than any other time.

There are a lot of aspects to the game that don't show up in stats and metrics, but I don't blame Simmons fans for wanting to make it all about the stats.

Wow, so you still throw the 11 game thing in there even after I gave hard evidence it has little to do with DM and was more a result of Gobert returning.

There have also been several posts showing Simmons has higher metrics than DM in 4th quarter and last 5 minutes of games.

This is my point. DM supporters just opt to ignore facts and metrics that don't support their narrative and instead rely on their beliefs about Mitchell.

We are over 50 games into this season. Go look up some data on whether or not Simmons is a 4th quarter liability. If you bothered you'd find out he is a better 4th quarter player than DM especially because he is an actual two way player and not just a scorer.

[bebopdeluxe]

I think the problem is Simmons supporters are asking DM supporters to use stats and metrics to establish a reason for DM over Simmons.

To date no one has, instead they say well Utah has won 11 in a row and he is their top scorer. .

Mitchell has been doing things very few rookies have ever done. First rook in 6 years to score 40+. One of only 4 rookies to ever have multiple 40 point games before all star break. In elite company as far as 30+ games as well, and everybody else on the list was a #1 pick overall. First rookie since freaking Wilt to be leading scorer of a team during an 11 game streak.

Simmons can't shoot the 3 and shoots free throws like Shaq. I think there's a legit question whether or not he'll become a liability in the 4th quarter, while Mitchell plays better in the 4th quarter than any other time.

There are a lot of aspects to the game that don't show up in stats and metrics, but I don't blame Simmons fans for wanting to make it all about the stats.

Yeah - why would Simmons fans want to base their argument on stats and metrics, right?

This statement is basically the essence of America today. Facts don’t matter. Stats? Who cares.

Jazz is 4-11 without Gobert...he comes back and they are 12-2...but MITCHELL Is the MVP because POINTZZZ!

Jazz defense gets BETTER when Mitchell is off the floor but POINTZZZ!

Only Magic and The Big O rolling 16/7/7 as a rookie like Ben but POINTZZZ!

Simmons playing at All-Defense level but POINTZZZ!

To Jazz fans who are legitimately stoked about having Mitchell on their team, congrats - I mean no disrespect. Enjoy watching the guy play for your team.