Top 10 Centers

[Thugger HBC]

Joakim Noah DOES NOT anchor the bulls defense, that is not the type of center/player he is.

What kind of player is he then?

[Doormatt]

He's a mobile, scrappy center who plays with a lotta heart. Hes got good passing skills out of the mid to high post and is a good rebounder. He's a good PnR defender, is solid at rotating, is a decent shotblocker and can score to some effect.

However, the bulls defense is not built around him (hence term anchor) because he doesn't have an elite impact for them (at least it would appear, the bulls still looked like a top defense with him out). He's not a dominant/great shotblocker/changer, he's not big enough to "clog" up the middle, he isn't strong enough to take on bigger post players, and he simply isn't good enough to be called an anchor.

[grimballer]

He's a mobile, scrappy center who plays with a lotta heart. Hes got good passing skills out of the mid to high post and is a good rebounder. He's a good PnR defender, is solid at rotating, is a decent shotblocker and can score to some effect.

However, the bulls defense is not built around him (hence term anchor) because he doesn't have an elite impact for them (at least it would appear, the bulls still looked like a top defense with him out). He's not a dominant/great shotblocker/changer, he's not big enough to "clog" up the middle, he isn't strong enough to take on bigger post players, and he simply isn't good enough to be called an anchor.

good post.

noah is more of dale davis/elden campbell/pj brown type of player.

not a true c, but more of good man to man defender/rebounder.

[grimballer]

btw i would also include scola.

he played alongside 6'6 chucky hayes.

But out of those two, Scola was definitely not the C.

n 6'6 hayes was?

height: scola 6'9, hayes 6'6
defended by: scola = c, hayes = pf
defends: scola = pf, hayes = c

2 outta 3 favors scola.

usually i wouldnt consider him a c, but with rockets starting 6'6 hayes next to him, why not?

[grimballer]

even their game is different.
kg likes the outside game n most of the time will be guarded by other teams pf.
amare likes to attack the basket n therefore was guarded by other teams c.

Amare's inside/outside scoring split is a PF's. 66% jumpers / 34% inside.
That's typical for a PF, majority of shots coming on jump shots.
http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK19.HTM

Compared to other prototypical PFs, Amare's 34% inside scoring isn't that much:
Boozer: 47% inside
Zbo: 44% inside
Landry: 32% inside
Griffin: 46% inside

When talking "true" centers many of them do their damage inside:
Noah: 71% inside
Dwight: 68% inside
Bogut: 85% inside
Nene: 71% inside
Bynum: 68% inside

You can take Ray Allen and list him at the center if you want. But if he's not getting the ball inside the paint and scoring, he's not bringing what makes the center position so valuable around the league.

i would love to see your c list?

how many team do actually have true c?

[Jvaughn]

You seem to have a lot of excuses why some players are so mediocre at essential parts of the game. Noah competes with Boozer (another double double guy) and Luol Deng and still gets his rebounds. Gasol and Bynum both get their numbers. Tim Duncan and Dejuan Blair both get their rebounds. Deandre Jordan and Blake Griffin both get their rebounds. Stop making up excuses. If their are rebounds out their to get, and players are determined enough to get them, they will.

Gasol is not a bad rebounder. His team was #9 in rebound differential with a +1 difference. There are not many more rebounds for he (or Randolph) to get. I would all but guarantee you put Gasol on most teams where they need more scoring and rebounding from the C position and he could be an 18/9 type of guy with good defense, BB IQ and that plays within the system.

Is this a "What position would they rank if they were in a great situation" thread, or am I supposed to rank them on what is? The rebound differential excuse is bull. LAL, CHI, and LAC, were all above MEM in rebound differential, yet those players all still have good rebounding numbers. Gasol is not a good rebounder.

[Trader_Joe]

Is this a "What position would they rank if they were in a great situation" thread, or am I supposed to rank them on what is? The rebound differential excuse is bull. LAL, CHI, and LAL were both above MEM in rebound differential, yet those players all still have good rebounding numbers. Gasol is not a good rebounder.

No, I put it out there to appeal to stat-geeks who need to see big numbers to rate a player. 12/7 or whatever Gasol averaged doesn't look impressive, but if you watch him, how he plays, and how well he plays within the system, you realize not only how good he is and how good he is for Memphis, but also how good he would be outside of Memphis.

And that's great you listed 2 teams (one twice) to prove something... notice Boozer's rebounding went way down in Chicago? Randolph's hasn't. Maybe if they did like Boozer's did (or maybe if Randolph simply missed games like Boozer does) Gasol's would go up and "look" better on paper for you.

[ManualRam]

i dont think gasol is good enough on the defensive end to be considered a legit 2 way player. he's a slow footed space eater on that end.

Who cares if he's slow footed? So were Ewing and Deke. He's big enough and strong enough to hold his ground and defend the post very well. There are not too many C's that take you off the dribble and turn it into a foot speed contest. Let the PF guard the perimeter PF or the ones with the speed and athleticism. Let your C worry about defending the post.

his foot speed matters when rotating over. ewing was not slow footed in his prime. he was pretty damn explosive. deke was slow footed, but he made up for it with his extraordinary length and shot blocking instincts, of which m.gasol doesnt even come close to having.
although being strong enough to hold your position in the post is a good attribute to have, it's not as important as being able to move your feet because of the emphasis on back line help defense as well as the dearth of face up big men compared to back to the basket bigs in the league today.

[Trader_Joe]

i dont think gasol is good enough on the defensive end to be considered a legit 2 way player. he's a slow footed space eater on that end.

Who cares if he's slow footed? So were Ewing and Deke. He's big enough and strong enough to hold his ground and defend the post very well. There are not too many C's that take you off the dribble and turn it into a foot speed contest. Let the PF guard the perimeter PF or the ones with the speed and athleticism. Let your C worry about defending the post.

his foot speed matters when rotating over. ewing was not slow footed in his prime. he was pretty damn explosive. deke was slow footed, but he made up for it with his extraordinary length and shot blocking instincts, of which m.gasol doesnt even come close to having.
although being strong enough to hold your position in the post is a good attribute to have, it's not as important as being able to move your feet because of the emphasis on back line help defense as well as the dearth of face up big men compared to back to the basket bigs in the league today.

He keeps Howard in check, relatively speaking, and he's about as fast a C as there is.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =howardw01

Meanwhile he was #13 in BPG on a decent defensive team, and Randolph is a pretty poor defender.

[doctorfunk]

height: scola 6'9, hayes 6'6
defended by: scola = c, hayes = pf
defends: scola = pf, hayes = c

2 outta 3 favors scola.

usually i wouldnt consider him a c, but with rockets starting 6'6 hayes next to him, why not?

I agree he played center a lot this season, however it does not make him or Amare a center on my top10 list.

Scola is a typical sized powerforward with classical skillset of powerforward, he played center not because it was most favorable to the team, it was because Yao was out and rest of centers either were bad or injured as well.

[Jvaughn]

Is this a "What position would they rank if they were in a great situation" thread, or am I supposed to rank them on what is? The rebound differential excuse is bull. LAL, CHI, and LAC were both above MEM in rebound differential, yet those players all still have good rebounding numbers. Gasol is not a good rebounder.

No, I put it out there to appeal to stat-geeks who need to see big numbers to rate a player. 12/7 or whatever Gasol averaged doesn't look impressive, but if you watch him, how he plays, and how well he plays within the system, you realize not only how good he is and how good he is for Memphis, but also how good he would be outside of Memphis.

And that's great you listed 2 teams (one twice) to prove something... notice Boozer's rebounding went way down in Chicago? Randolph's hasn't. Maybe if they did like Boozer's did (or maybe if Randolph simply missed games like Boozer does) Gasol's would go up and "look" better on paper for you.

You don't need to be a stat geek to realize a guy averaging 7rpg is not a good rebounder, no matter who they're playing with. Look at his TRB%. It's atrocious for a big man. I watch the guy, and he's offensively talented. Good post moves, good jump shot, and high IQ. He however does not rebound or defend well enough to be ranked in the upper tier of C's.

Read the edit: One was supposed to be LAL and the other was supposed to be LAC. Carlos Boozer is on the #1 rebounding team in the league and still averaged 10rpg. Keep in mind he still managed to do this while playing next to players like Joakim Noah, Luol Deng, and Omer Asik. You're once again playing the maybe game with Gasol. Can't rank him on maybe's and what-ifs. If that's the case, can't I go ahead and assume Noah would average Kevin Love type numbers on DET? If so, then I'm gonna rank him as the best C in the league.

[ManualRam]

Who cares if he's slow footed? So were Ewing and Deke. He's big enough and strong enough to hold his ground and defend the post very well. There are not too many C's that take you off the dribble and turn it into a foot speed contest. Let the PF guard the perimeter PF or the ones with the speed and athleticism. Let your C worry about defending the post.

his foot speed matters when rotating over. ewing was not slow footed in his prime. he was pretty damn explosive. deke was slow footed, but he made up for it with his extraordinary length and shot blocking instincts, of which m.gasol doesnt even come close to having.
although being strong enough to hold your position in the post is a good attribute to have, it's not as important as being able to move your feet because of the emphasis on back line help defense as well as the dearth of face up big men compared to back to the basket bigs in the league today.

He keeps Howard in check, relatively speaking, and he's about as fast a C as there is.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =howardw01

Meanwhile he was #13 in BPG on a decent defensive team, and Randolph is a pretty poor defender.

holding him to his average is keeping him in check? he avged 20 ppg over that time span.
also, dwight is one of the few back to the basket players in the league.

individual post defense is only one aspect of big man defense. the best big man defenders are the ones who can help, recover, guard pick n roll, finish defensive possessions (aka def rebounding) and protect the paint, while also being able to guard their own man in both the post and and face up situations.

[Sasaki]

height: scola 6'9, hayes 6'6
defended by: scola = c, hayes = pf
defends: scola = pf, hayes = c

2 outta 3 favors scola.

usually i wouldnt consider him a c, but with rockets starting 6'6 hayes next to him, why not?

I agree he played center a lot this season, however it does not make him or Amare a center on my top10 list.

Scola is a typical sized powerforward with classical skillset of powerforward, he played center not because it was most favorable to the team, it was because Yao was out and rest of centers either were bad or injured as well.

What?

Scola did not play one minute of center this entire season, and height isn't the all-dominating factor in a center. Chuck can play center, as while he's shorter, he's tougher and is bigger and stronger. I mean, Chris Bosh is taller than Ben Wallace, but which one would you call a center? Hayes was the center, than Jordan Hill/Brad Miller, and heck Patterson in spot minutes. Never ever, Scola.

[Trader_Joe]

holding him to his average is keeping him in check? he avged 20 ppg over that time span.
also, dwight is one of the few back to the basket players in the league.

individual post defense is only one aspect of big man defense. the best big man defenders are the ones who can help, recover, guard pick n roll, finish defensive possessions (aka def rebounding) and protect the paint, while also being able to guard their own man in both the post and and face up situations.

He was 3ppg under his average and 3prg under his average as well as 55% vs. 60% shooting.
And yes.. those are the best.. but very rare. I'd be happy with post defense from one of my big men, and let the other worry about the pick and roll and help D.

And I wasn't trying to imply Gasol is Dwight, Bogut or Bynum..on defense rather an above average defender.

[Trader_Joe]

Is this a "What position would they rank if they were in a great situation" thread, or am I supposed to rank them on what is? The rebound differential excuse is bull. LAL, CHI, and LAC were both above MEM in rebound differential, yet those players all still have good rebounding numbers. Gasol is not a good rebounder.

No, I put it out there to appeal to stat-geeks who need to see big numbers to rate a player. 12/7 or whatever Gasol averaged doesn't look impressive, but if you watch him, how he plays, and how well he plays within the system, you realize not only how good he is and how good he is for Memphis, but also how good he would be outside of Memphis.

And that's great you listed 2 teams (one twice) to prove something... notice Boozer's rebounding went way down in Chicago? Randolph's hasn't. Maybe if they did like Boozer's did (or maybe if Randolph simply missed games like Boozer does) Gasol's would go up and "look" better on paper for you.

You don't need to be a stat geek to realize a guy averaging 7rpg is not a good rebounder, no matter who they're playing with. Look at his TRB%. It's atrocious for a big man. I watch the guy, and he's offensively talented. Good post moves, good jump shot, and high IQ. He however does not rebound or defend well enough to be ranked in the upper tier of C's.

Read the edit: One was supposed to be LAL and the other was supposed to be LAC. Carlos Boozer is on the #1 rebounding team in the league and still averaged 10rpg. Keep in mind he still managed to do this while playing next to players like Joakim Noah, Luol Deng, and Omer Asik. You're once again playing the maybe game with Gasol. Can't rank him on maybe's and what-ifs. If that's the case, can't I go ahead and assume Noah would average Kevin Love type numbers on DET? If so, then I'm gonna rank him as the best C in the league.

9.3 RPG lasts season was good as was 11.2 in the playoffs in 13 games.

And again he's playing next a great rebounder and notoriously selfish player in Randolph on a team that out rebounded their opponents. Gasol was the 2nd best player for Memphis on their deep post-season run, and I thought it was rather apparent how good he is..

15 ppg
11.2 rpg
2.2 apg
2.2 bpg
1.1 spg

on 51% in 13 games was great production on a quality playoff team.



Funny how I'm only getting hounded by Chicago fans about this... not a Grizz fan here, but I do respect Gasol's game... and Noah's. I just prefer Gasol ever so slightly.

[Jvaughn]

No, I put it out there to appeal to stat-geeks who need to see big numbers to rate a player. 12/7 or whatever Gasol averaged doesn't look impressive, but if you watch him, how he plays, and how well he plays within the system, you realize not only how good he is and how good he is for Memphis, but also how good he would be outside of Memphis.

And that's great you listed 2 teams (one twice) to prove something... notice Boozer's rebounding went way down in Chicago? Randolph's hasn't. Maybe if they did like Boozer's did (or maybe if Randolph simply missed games like Boozer does) Gasol's would go up and "look" better on paper for you.

You don't need to be a stat geek to realize a guy averaging 7rpg is not a good rebounder, no matter who they're playing with. Look at his TRB%. It's atrocious for a big man. I watch the guy, and he's offensively talented. Good post moves, good jump shot, and high IQ. He however does not rebound or defend well enough to be ranked in the upper tier of C's.

Read the edit: One was supposed to be LAL and the other was supposed to be LAC. Carlos Boozer is on the #1 rebounding team in the league and still averaged 10rpg. Keep in mind he still managed to do this while playing next to players like Joakim Noah, Luol Deng, and Omer Asik. You're once again playing the maybe game with Gasol. Can't rank him on maybe's and what-ifs. If that's the case, can't I go ahead and assume Noah would average Kevin Love type numbers on DET? If so, then I'm gonna rank him as the best C in the league.

9.3 RPG lasts season was good as was 11.2 in the playoffs in 13 games.

And again he's playing next a great rebounder and notoriously selfish player in Randolph on a team that out rebounded their opponents. Gasol was the 2nd best player for Memphis on their deep post-season run, and I thought it was rather apparent how good he is..

15 ppg
11.2 rpg
2.2 apg
2.2 bpg
1.1 spg

on 51% in 13 games was great production on a quality playoff team.



Funny how I'm only getting hounded by Chicago fans about this... not a Grizz fan here, but I do respect Gasol's game... and Noah's. I just prefer Gasol ever so slightly.

What does a person being a selfish player have to do with defense and rebounding? Boozer steals rebounds from his teammates on a regular basis, but it doesn't stop Noah from averaging a double double, nor does it stop Deng from grabbing near 7rpg from the SF spot.

I'm not about to hold more weight to a 13 game sample than I am over a 82 game sample. He rebounded well for a fraction of the season. What does me being a Bulls fan have to do with it at all? I'm not arguing Noah should be on the top of the list. He started off the season as one of the top 3-5 C's in the league, then injury made him plummet. I don't think he finished the season as a top C. My problem with Gasol has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the fact that outside of offensive production, he doesn't give you enough at the C spot to be ranked that high. He's got to be closer to 10 than he is to top 5. No way I can rank him above: Dwight, Bogut, Bynum, Horford, Noah, Nene or Chandler.

[ManualRam]

holding him to his average is keeping him in check? he avged 20 ppg over that time span.
also, dwight is one of the few back to the basket players in the league.

individual post defense is only one aspect of big man defense. the best big man defenders are the ones who can help, recover, guard pick n roll, finish defensive possessions (aka def rebounding) and protect the paint, while also being able to guard their own man in both the post and and face up situations.

He was 3ppg under his average and 3prg under his average as well as 55% vs. 60% shooting.
And yes.. those are the best.. but very rare. I'd be happy with post defense from one of my big men, and let the other worry about the pick and roll and help D.

And I wasn't trying to imply Gasol is Dwight, Bogut or Bynum..on defense rather an above average defender.

what are you talking about? you posted head to head numbers since gasol has been in the league, which means b/t 2008-2011. he avged 20 ppg during that time span. he also avged 14 boards a game vs gasol. hardly holding him under his average.

how valuable is big man post defense when hardly anyone posts with their back to the basket anymore?

because he's below average in those other aspects (average in a few), that makes him a below average defender in my eyes. certainly not enough of a force defensively to be considered a 2 way player.

[bullsnewdynasty]

I can play the "excuse/cherry picking games" game as well. Noah averaged 14.8 ppg 13.0 rpg 2.6 ast 1.4 blk 1.8 stl 53% fg 95% ft in the playoffs last year when he was not dealing with lingering injuries.

[Trader_Joe]

What does a person being a selfish player have to do with defense and rebounding? Boozer steals rebounds from his teammates on a regular basis, but it doesn't stop Noah from averaging a double double, nor does it stop Deng from grabbing near 7rpg from the SF spot.

I'm not about to hold more weight to a 13 game sample than I am over a 82 game sample. He rebounded well for a fraction of the season. What does me being a Bulls fan have to do with it at all? I'm not arguing Noah should be on the top of the list. He started off the season as one of the top 3-5 C's in the league, then injury made him plummet. I don't think he finished the season as a top C. My problem with Gasol has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the fact that outside of offensive production, he doesn't give you enough at the C spot to be ranked that high. He's got to be closer to 10 than he is to top 5. No way I can rank him above: Dwight, Bogut, Bynum, Horford, Noah, Nene or Chandler.

So the 9.3 last season was a fluke?

And I'd rather look at a sample from the playoffs... 13 games no less (not a 4 game sweep or something) where the pressure and intensity is at its peak. I'm not comparing preseason.

And I don't think his offense is even what makes me rank him so high.. it's his ability to fit with his teammates, his IQ, his passing, and above average defense (in the post) and above average offense.

Gasol is going to be one of the highest paid FA's this off-season, and I bet he makes as much or more than Nene.. and certainly Chandler. Two guys in your list, and that should tell you something...

[Trader_Joe]

Wow bull fans chill. I'm just one guy who prefers gasol to Noah. I'm sure I'm not the only one.