Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

[thamadkant]

Cant believe Hinkie is getting paid executive dollars to NOT do anything.
Easiest job in the world...
- he clears space for D-league players on bare minimum salary.
- waits for desperate teams to trade for space, ask for picks.
- scouting wise, he knows they are picking top 5 so use the concensus mocks as base, work them out and then draft.
- Trades? where he actually has to do homework on players?... NOPE, he eyes picks and 12th men talent.

3 years has passed, the guy earned maybe a few million dollars... fooled the ownership into hiring him to "find" the next superstar via Draft.... worst record every year, meets performance targets as a GM... WOW.

If they never find their next superstar, Hinkie can retire on the executive level money he got to TANK and be uncompetitive... wow. EASIEST job in the world.

Some 76ers fans need to stop and realize that life is too short you guys should be furious, I can understand a 2-3 year plan to "tank"... and get assets. But 5+ years... WOW.

[Slava]

"is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing"
"receives the same luxury tax distribution as every other team that comes in below the tax line" while not getting any revenue sharing money otherwise.

I mean, lets not pretend that those statements are remotely the same. They aren't. Associating the two is either massively missing the point or intentionally misleading.


But for those concerned, here is the maximum possible '2014-15 lux tax distributions that allegedly made Philly 'turning a profit':

Philadelphia: 830k
Phoenix: 830k
Lakers: 830k

We really going to argue this is effecting things the way suggested?

`

Thanks for being snide but as a matter of fact Lakers kind of send a significant amount of their TV deal and merchandise sale money back into the revenue sharing pool so $830k isn't simple and basic as you make it look.

That 830k is the amount that the Lakers, Phoenix and Philly all got from the " lux tax distributions "

Or was your point that lux tax distributions and revenue sharing are entirely different things? If so, I agree. Philly receives none (zero) of the massive amounts the Lakers send into the league for revenue sharing.

So, how relevant was that 830k in making Philly make a profit? It wasn't, unlike claimed.

Yes ofcourse those are two different things but its not true that Philly doesn't receive any money from the revenue shared by the Lakers. Whatever money comes from revenue sharing is put into a pot and shared back amongst the 30 franchises depending on difference between the team's operating income and the league average payroll.

Lakers for example contributed roughly $50 million from estimates. Zach Lowe claims that Philly contributed nothing meaning that they are saying they broke even, before revenue sharing.

[bwgood77]

So now it's years, not forever. Waiting for a list of teams that "stick down there forever". Just one team, name it.

OK, GS didn't make the playoffs for YEARS, nor did the Clips. Minnesota has been stuck for about 10 years already. Washington was stuck forever and Charlotte/NO was as well..they made it one year but that didn't last. The Knicks were stuck for a long time. Sacramento has been stuck outside of the playoffs for like 8 years or so. Toronto didn't make it for years either. I don't know if I need to go on...I guess I could if you want me to, but this is just recent examples. I'm glad to educate you on the recent history, but it has been happening for years.

Those are mostly teams that were not "tanking". Just kinda treadmilling outside of the playoffs.

It's funny that you say GS first when they just won a title. So I guess you didn't mean forever.

Anyhow, the word forever was what I had a problem with. It seems you meant 5-10 years?

GS didn't make the playoffs for a bunch of years other than their upset of the Mavs 8 years ago or so. If you don't know history and are new to the game, it's tough to understand for you, so I am trying to give examples. Most of those teams didn't make it for close to a decade, or made it maybe once, despite having top 10 picks year after year.

[Ponchos]

OK, GS didn't make the playoffs for YEARS, nor did the Clips. Minnesota has been stuck for about 10 years already. Washington was stuck forever and Charlotte/NO was as well..they made it one year but that didn't last. The Knicks were stuck for a long time. Sacramento has been stuck outside of the playoffs for like 8 years or so. Toronto didn't make it for years either. I don't know if I need to go on...I guess I could if you want me to, but this is just recent examples. I'm glad to educate you on the recent history, but it has been happening for years.

Those are mostly teams that were not "tanking". Just kinda treadmilling outside of the playoffs.

It's funny that you say GS first when they just won a title. So I guess you didn't mean forever.

Anyhow, the word forever was what I had a problem with. It seems you meant 5-10 years?

GS didn't make the playoffs for a bunch of years other than their upset of the Mavs 8 years ago or so. If you don't know history and are new to the game, it's tough to understand for you, so I am trying to give examples. Most of those teams didn't make it for close to a decade, or made it maybe once, despite having top 10 picks year after year.

Top-10 picks are for suckers. Top-5 picks are for tankers.

It seems I really got your vag in a twist over this. Again, you said forever. Now you're changing it. Words have meaning, say what you mean and be clear.

[JDizzel3000]

I might take your guys too, especially if it meant mine team could play in the east. I think the Clips are a contender, but treadmilling, by definition means continuing to stay in the same place. They have exited in the second round two or three years in a row, and have just hovered in the same place. Treadmilling isn't just teams in 13th place, it is a team continually finishing about the same place. It happens with many teams. The Cavs will probably treadmill in the NBA championship game for a few years now.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion when it comes to what "treadmilling" means in the context of NBA basketball .... Treadmiliing isn't just doing the same thing multiple times ...the connotation with the term to me is mediocrity...by your definition a team that wins 5 straight championships is doing the same thing or would be categorized in the same group as a team that finishes 9th in their conference every year ...obviously I don't agree with that analysis

It was just funny to see a fan of a team that has gone out in the first or second round four consecutive years call a team that traded away all of it's older players to go young, then got the 5th pick, then almost made the playoffs, and then got some more young players, is treadmilling. We just have been rebuilding the last two years. We may be in the middle of the pack, but last year was the first year of the rebuild and we have four lottery picks from the last five years on the team.

I mean if you want to ramble on about the Bulls situation without using any context to their circumstance that's fine ...but from an argument standpoint it's a bit of a non starter as it shows me that either you haven't been paying attention to the NBA over the past 4 seasons or your just intentionally trying to be catty ...the fact is ..the Bulls haven't been able to truly evaluate their full team for 3 seasons up until this year in the playoffs ...they couldn't determine accurately whether or not a rebuild would be possible due to their franchise player being continually injured while still counting for a large percentage of the teams cap space ...it's not like you can just wish that away ..you have to incorporate Rose into any plan moving forward ....and even with all of that said the team is still in a better situation in regards to their young players and picks when comparing them to the Suns ...furthermore saying your team got rid of all of its young players to rebuild is inconsistent with what they did this off season as their prized pick up is a 33 year old center who only will stand in the way of getting that youth movement started ...which to me forces your team to straddle the fence between wanting to rebuild and actually treadmilling ....

I like Portis and McDermott but they don't scream star player to me. Gasol and Gibson are pretty old. Rose, for your sake, hopefully comes back. Now Butler is a stud, so you have that, and Mirotic looks good, but the best thing you have going for you is that you are in the east. Hopefully Hoiberg does well. I think he will.

Gasol is still a productive player for this team in the current but obviously an aging vet ..in the event that if this season ends the same way last season did I can definitely see us starting over as to avoid ending up in that dreaded prolonged treadmillville ....I think gasol would then be open to potentially being moved to a true contender for assets (however minor) as his contact will be expiring and it's a steal considering the cap hit


Gibson you can put into the same boat as gasol ...

Rose is what he is at this point and that's a complete and utter wild card ...if he can find some semblance of the player he once was in regards to effectiveness he can have a positive impact on this team ...certainly to the level of the guards on the Suns if not ..we're straddled with him for 2 years and will be forced to move on to a new era after his contract expires


But again with all that said I'd still take the Bulls young core group of guys that I listed over the Suns as butler is the clear trump card when comparing the two

I'm not really trying to get into an argument, but the Suns are the ones that have been adding lottery picks the last five years and acquiring more picks and young players. Besides all of our own picks, we have three first rounders from other teams and Bogdan Bogdanovic, who has been voted a Euroleague rising star, coming over in a couple years.

The term "lottery pick" in a vacuum really has no bearing to me ..Adam Morrison was a "lottery pick" ... The question is are the guys you picked any good?? .. Are there prospects of those picks becoming valuable pieces to the Suns taking the next step?? Do you guys believe these players will be positive contributors to the Suns going foward?? If so hey that's great ...but using obtuse terms like that as some sort of validation would be reaching to me


Lastly brining up the 3 picks seems a bit disingenuous to me in regards to the conversation were having ...one of those picks doesn't come until 5 years down the road man ....lol ...5 damn years? You may have a whole new team by that point

[bwgood77]

Those are mostly teams that were not "tanking". Just kinda treadmilling outside of the playoffs.

It's funny that you say GS first when they just won a title. So I guess you didn't mean forever.

Anyhow, the word forever was what I had a problem with. It seems you meant 5-10 years?

GS didn't make the playoffs for a bunch of years other than their upset of the Mavs 8 years ago or so. If you don't know history and are new to the game, it's tough to understand for you, so I am trying to give examples. Most of those teams didn't make it for close to a decade, or made it maybe once, despite having top 10 picks year after year.

Top-10 picks are for suckers. Top-5 picks are for tankers.

It seems I really got your vag in a twist over this. Again, you said forever. Now you're changing it. Words have meaning, say what you mean and be clear.

So you want some examples and now you say my non existent vag is in a twist. Fabulous comeback. Glad you wanted one example, and I gave multiple ones and you have to resort to this. Good luck with your future.

[Ponchos]

GS didn't make the playoffs for a bunch of years other than their upset of the Mavs 8 years ago or so. If you don't know history and are new to the game, it's tough to understand for you, so I am trying to give examples. Most of those teams didn't make it for close to a decade, or made it maybe once, despite having top 10 picks year after year.

Top-10 picks are for suckers. Top-5 picks are for tankers.

It seems I really got your vag in a twist over this. Again, you said forever. Now you're changing it. Words have meaning, say what you mean and be clear.

So you want some examples and now you say my non existent vag is in a twist. Fabulous comeback. Glad you wanted one example, and I gave multiple ones and you have to resort to this. Good luck with your future.

I wanted an example of a team that was stuck down there forever. Do you not know what forever means? Just say you didn't really mean forever, you meant 10 years.

[HartfordWhalers]

`

Thanks for being snide but as a matter of fact Lakers kind of send a significant amount of their TV deal and merchandise sale money back into the revenue sharing pool so $830k isn't simple and basic as you make it look.

That 830k is the amount that the Lakers, Phoenix and Philly all got from the " lux tax distributions "

Or was your point that lux tax distributions and revenue sharing are entirely different things? If so, I agree. Philly receives none (zero) of the massive amounts the Lakers send into the league for revenue sharing.

So, how relevant was that 830k in making Philly make a profit? It wasn't, unlike claimed.

Yes ofcourse those are two different things but its not true that Philly doesn't receive any money from the revenue shared by the Lakers. Whatever money comes from revenue sharing is put into a pot and shared back amongst the 30 franchises depending on difference between the team's operating income and the league average payroll.

Lakers for example contributed roughly $50 million from estimates. Zach Lowe claims that Philly contributed nothing meaning that they are saying they broke even, before revenue sharing.

You claimed something not said by Zach Lowe on page 1, that Philly "is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing"
And now you are doubling down on it, "its not true that Philly doesn't receive any money from the revenue shared by the Lakers" along with "they broke even, before revenue sharing" and "Whatever money comes from revenue sharing is put into a pot and shared back amongst the 30 franchises depending on difference between the team's operating income and the league average payroll. "

The problem I have with it is it is entirely factually inaccurate. Philly receives 0 revenue sharing money (apart from that lux tax money of 830k). The money is not 'shared back among the 30 franchises'. Lakers get 0 of that money back. And Philly gets 0 of that money.

If you need references, I'm happy to provide them. It is Coon's faq for instance:

Teams in markets with more than 2.5 million TV households cannot receive a revenue sharing payment.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q24

If more are needed I can site a bunch on it. How Philly has managed to make a profit is an interesting topic but it certainly doesn't involve what you say it does -- revenue sharing.

[bwgood77]

Top-10 picks are for suckers. Top-5 picks are for tankers.

It seems I really got your vag in a twist over this. Again, you said forever. Now you're changing it. Words have meaning, say what you mean and be clear.

So you want some examples and now you say my non existent vag is in a twist. Fabulous comeback. Glad you wanted one example, and I gave multiple ones and you have to resort to this. Good luck with your future.

I wanted an example of a team that was stuck down there forever. Do you not know what forever means? Just say you didn't really mean forever, you meant 10 years.

OK. I didn't mean forever. I meant 10 years.

[sixerswillrule]

Cant believe Hinkie is getting paid executive dollars to NOT do anything.
Easiest job in the world...
- he clears space for D-league players on bare minimum salary.
- waits for desperate teams to trade for space, ask for picks.
- scouting wise, he knows they are picking top 5 so use the concensus mocks as base, work them out and then draft.
- Trades? where he actually has to do homework on players?... NOPE, he eyes picks and 12th men talent.

3 years has passed, the guy earned maybe a few million dollars... fooled the ownership into hiring him to "find" the next superstar via Draft.... worst record every year, meets performance targets as a GM... WOW.

If they never find their next superstar, Hinkie can retire on the executive level money he got to TANK and be uncompetitive... wow. EASIEST job in the world.

Some 76ers fans need to stop and realize that life is too short you guys should be furious, I can understand a 2-3 year plan to "tank"... and get assets. But 5+ years... WOW.

1) 2 years have passed, not 3.

2) Hinkie is not trying to fool the ownership into letting him hold onto his job.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1390721&start=160#p43803578

[Train Wreck]

The Grizzlies are not a treadmill team. They're fringe title contenders. They've been near the top end of Western Conference teams for years.

It's silly to compare them to the sixers. The sixers are tanking to become a contending team, you know, like the Griz, Warriors, Cavs, Spurs, OKC, etc.

Raps, Hawks, Pistons, Brooklyn etc. Those are the treadmillers.

Well, by definition they are a treadmill team, but in a good way. I pull for them when the Suns are out of it. They have a serious chance every year. They are running at a good pace on the treadmill, and they may run faster. The Sixers are walking very slow right now on the treadmill.

Your definition of treadmill doesn't really line up with what I think the consensus definition is. Philly are tankers, not "really slow treadmillers". It's called a treadmill because those teams are too good to get transformative draft picks, yet are not real title contenders.

When the playoffs start, if you have a legit shot at the title, you're not a treadmill team.

Everybody has a different definition of what a treadmill team is. GS obviously had a shot when the playoffs started but before the season, I guarantee there were people calling them a treadmill team. A team like the Dallas Mavericks were the definition of a treadmill team before the 10-11 season with 4 or 5 first round exits in a row and Bam, add a player like Tyson Chandler and they win the Championship.

The 2004 Pistons were a solid playoff team coming into the season with ZERO shot to win a championship any time soon, find a way to add that missing piece in Sheed and the rest is history. Wonder how many people would have wanted to blown that team up?

Meanwhile, The Spurs tank for Tim Duncan 20 years ago and it worked so now everyone thinks its the way to go. What they probably don't remember is the Spurs were already a good team and organization who had a down year. They weren't a terrible team who decided to get more terrible.

Even Miami was decent if I remember correctly in the years leading up to Wade and only started to suck when ZO got sick and had one, maybe 2 down years.

[bwgood77]

Well, by definition they are a treadmill team, but in a good way. I pull for them when the Suns are out of it. They have a serious chance every year. They are running at a good pace on the treadmill, and they may run faster. The Sixers are walking very slow right now on the treadmill.

Your definition of treadmill doesn't really line up with what I think the consensus definition is. Philly are tankers, not "really slow treadmillers". It's called a treadmill because those teams are too good to get transformative draft picks, yet are not real title contenders.

When the playoffs start, if you have a legit shot at the title, you're not a treadmill team.

Everybody has a different definition of what a treadmill team is. GS obviously had a shot when the playoffs started but before the season, I guarantee there were people calling them a treadmill team. A team like the Dallas Mavericks were the definition of a treadmill team before the 10-11 season with 4 or 5 first round exits in a row and Bam, add a player like Tyson Chandler and they win the Championship.

The 2004 Pistons were a solid playoff team coming into the season with ZERO shot to win a championship any time soon, find a way to add that missing piece in Sheed and the rest is history. Wonder how many people would have wanted to blown that team up?

Meanwhile, The Spurs tank for Tim Duncan 20 years ago and it worked so now everyone thinks its the way to go. What they probably don't remember is the Spurs were already a good team and organization who had a down year. They weren't a terrible team who decided to get more terrible.

Even Miami was decent if I remember correctly in the years leading up to Wade and only started to suck when ZO got sick and had one, maybe 2 down years.

Great post. You never know what a team might be capable of. If they go 5 years or so with the same results with an aging roster, I think it is rare they change. Dallas did, but they also had a top 5 player at the time. Any team with a superstar has that chance.

[Slava]

That 830k is the amount that the Lakers, Phoenix and Philly all got from the " lux tax distributions "

Or was your point that lux tax distributions and revenue sharing are entirely different things? If so, I agree. Philly receives none (zero) of the massive amounts the Lakers send into the league for revenue sharing.

So, how relevant was that 830k in making Philly make a profit? It wasn't, unlike claimed.

Yes ofcourse those are two different things but its not true that Philly doesn't receive any money from the revenue shared by the Lakers. Whatever money comes from revenue sharing is put into a pot and shared back amongst the 30 franchises depending on difference between the team's operating income and the league average payroll.

Lakers for example contributed roughly $50 million from estimates. Zach Lowe claims that Philly contributed nothing meaning that they are saying they broke even, before revenue sharing.

You claimed something not said by Zach Lowe on page 1, that Philly "is turning a profit thanks to revenue sharing"
And now you are doubling down on it, "its not true that Philly doesn't receive any money from the revenue shared by the Lakers" along with "they broke even, before revenue sharing" and "Whatever money comes from revenue sharing is put into a pot and shared back amongst the 30 franchises depending on difference between the team's operating income and the league average payroll. "

The problem I have with it is it is entirely factually inaccurate. Philly receives 0 revenue sharing money (apart from that lux tax money of 830k). The money is not 'shared back among the 30 franchises'. Lakers get 0 of that money back. And Philly gets 0 of that money.

If you need references, I'm happy to provide them. It is Coon's faq for instance:

Teams in markets with more than 2.5 million TV households cannot receive a revenue sharing payment.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q24

If more are needed I can site a bunch on it. How Philly has managed to make a profit is an interesting topic but it certainly doesn't involve what you say it does -- revenue sharing.

My bad, I take that back. I didn't guess Philly falls under that category and always assumed the teams that don't receive revenue sharing to be LA & NY teams, Warriors, Dallas, DC, Boston and Chicago.

Turns out Philly is actually 4th highest TV market in the US:

http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Market_Profiles_Nielsen_TVHH_DMA_Ranks_2013-2014.pdf

Now that you mention this, I did find this blog which explains things better:

The goal of the floor, and of the penalty, is that teams will essentially pay a fixed minimum amount to players, even if team salary falls below there.

But there is a loophole.

First, the teams salary is calculated at the end of the season. The team being below the salary cap floor at any point before then is irrelevant.

Second, team salaries are calculated based off of the full season salary of all players on the roster at the end of the season, even if that player was acquired during the season.

So, let’s say the Sixers acquire, oh, I don’t know, Danny Granger and his $13 million salary at the NBA’s trade deadline, and that salary brings them over the salary cap floor. Granger’s impact on team salary would be $13 million, even though the amount that they have to pay him is based on the amount of time he’s with the team (or, in this case, amount of games after he was waived), or roughly 1/3 of the season. So Granger’s cap hit would be $13 million, but the Sixers would only be on the hook to pay for roughly $4.3 million of that.

In theory, this discrepancy between how much Granger counted towards the Sixers end-of-year salary calculation and how much the team actually paid him could be considered a loophole to save money, although with how many lawyers looked over the NBA’s CBA, it’s hard for me to believe that this wasn’t a scenario they predicted would happen, and something that was intentional and accounted for.

Still, the longer the team goes into the season with upwards of $24 million between them and the salary floor, the potential cost savings grow. With the offseason virtually wrapped up there doesn’t seem like there will be all that many opportunities to add gobs of salary until the trade deadline, where a situation could present itself where a roughly $8 million expenditure could prevent the team from spending $24 million in salary floor penalty.

Now, is turning a profit why the Sixers aren’t using their salary cap space? I’m not sure I believe that. I think Sam Hinkie values salary cap flexibility immensely. I think that he wants to keep himself in a position where he can pounce on an opportunity if one presents itself, and the deals that have been presented to the Sixers thus far have simply not been worth giving up that flexibility for, in his mind. I think that this inability to find many opportunities has largely been influenced by the rising salary cap (which increased by over $4.3 million this summer) along with teams decreasing willingness to part with quality first round picks.

http://nba.derekbodner.com/2014/08/28/how-the-sixers-did-and-didnt-turn-a-profit-last-year/

[HartfordWhalers]

Cant believe Hinkie is getting paid executive dollars to NOT do anything.
Easiest job in the world...
- he clears space for D-league players on bare minimum salary.
- waits for desperate teams to trade for space, ask for picks.
- scouting wise, he knows they are picking top 5 so use the concensus mocks as base, work them out and then draft.
- Trades? where he actually has to do homework on players?... NOPE, he eyes picks and 12th men talent.

3 years has passed, the guy earned maybe a few million dollars... fooled the ownership into hiring him to "find" the next superstar via Draft.... worst record every year, meets performance targets as a GM... WOW.

If they never find their next superstar, Hinkie can retire on the executive level money he got to TANK and be uncompetitive... wow. EASIEST job in the world.

Some 76ers fans need to stop and realize that life is too short you guys should be furious, I can understand a 2-3 year plan to "tank"... and get assets. But 5+ years... WOW.

I know the error on number of years has been pointed out already, but I figured I would just add that Philly works out 80-100+ players each year for the draft. That puts them towards the top of the league in terms of work outs.

In addition, Hinkie saw Porzingis live in Spain 4-5 times, and was the only GM to see Mudiay live in China. Sitting back and just reading mock drafts is clearly not what is happening. The team has had a half dozen picks each of the last 2 years, and for a while this year looked like they might end up with another 2-3 more firsts, spanning every range of the draft.

I understand some people will want to look at Philly's record and conclude the team isn't doing anything for whatever reason, but by all accounts the team has been very active in terms of the draft in pretty much the exact opposite of your entire description (including this Lowe article which talks about them trying to trade back into the lottery). That background work was in no small part was how they were able to do the trade they did with Orlando last draft.

[zimpy27]

I prefer the phoenix rebuild, they look like they are trying to get a flush rather than just pairing a bunch of high cards.

Bledsoe - Knight
Goodwin - Booker
Tucker - Warren
Morris - Leuer
Chandler - Len

They are creating valuable pieces for trade while building a team identity. I think they just need a superstar to come from this group or from FA.

[Train Wreck]

Cant believe Hinkie is getting paid executive dollars to NOT do anything.
Easiest job in the world...
- he clears space for D-league players on bare minimum salary.
- waits for desperate teams to trade for space, ask for picks.
- scouting wise, he knows they are picking top 5 so use the concensus mocks as base, work them out and then draft.
- Trades? where he actually has to do homework on players?... NOPE, he eyes picks and 12th men talent.

3 years has passed, the guy earned maybe a few million dollars... fooled the ownership into hiring him to "find" the next superstar via Draft.... worst record every year, meets performance targets as a GM... WOW.

If they never find their next superstar, Hinkie can retire on the executive level money he got to TANK and be uncompetitive... wow. EASIEST job in the world.

Some 76ers fans need to stop and realize that life is too short you guys should be furious, I can understand a 2-3 year plan to "tank"... and get assets. But 5+ years... WOW.

He's brilliant. He admits he wants a lot of picks because he knows he's going to blow a lot of the picks. Genius! The thing is, they are heading exactly where they say they don't want to be. They have just enough young talent now to where they shouldn't be one of the top 5 worst teams in the league but don't have that difference maker on their roster. And each year, it will be harder to get said person as they incrementally improve ever so slightly.

Unless, of course, they get off to a decent start and trade Noel for a 2017 first rounder instead. (which will probably happen)

[saintEscaton]

Your definition of treadmill doesn't really line up with what I think the consensus definition is. Philly are tankers, not "really slow treadmillers". It's called a treadmill because those teams are too good to get transformative draft picks, yet are not real title contenders.

When the playoffs start, if you have a legit shot at the title, you're not a treadmill team.

Everybody has a different definition of what a treadmill team is. GS obviously had a shot when the playoffs started but before the season, I guarantee there were people calling them a treadmill team. A team like the Dallas Mavericks were the definition of a treadmill team before the 10-11 season with 4 or 5 first round exits in a row and Bam, add a player like Tyson Chandler and they win the Championship.

The 2004 Pistons were a solid playoff team coming into the season with ZERO shot to win a championship any time soon, find a way to add that missing piece in Sheed and the rest is history. Wonder how many people would have wanted to blown that team up?

Meanwhile, The Spurs tank for Tim Duncan 20 years ago and it worked so now everyone thinks its the way to go. What they probably don't remember is the Spurs were already a good team and organization who had a down year. They weren't a terrible team who decided to get more terrible.

Even Miami was decent if I remember correctly in the years leading up to Wade and only started to suck when ZO got sick and had one, maybe 2 down years.

Great post. You never know what a team might be capable of. If they go 5 years or so with the same results with an aging roster, I think it is rare they change. Dallas did, but they also had a top 5 player at the time. Any team with a superstar has that chance.

I agree. The current Suns are no different than pre-Harden Rockets, Celts before the Big 3. But the point to take away is that you shouldn't put yourself in a position where you are solely relying on divine intervention to acquire a franchise player via trade for pennnies on the dollar. In all liklihood the harsh reality is rebuild through the draft or bust , The Harden trade was clearly an outlier as OKC was stacked/couldn't accommodate another dominant ballhandler and you can't bank on ever getting an opportunity to pounce on a deal so hilariously lopsided. Going back to the Suns , unfortunately we don't have that superstar and our highest drafted player Len looks to be a nice complimentary piece of our young core as a near elite rim protector with some offensive upside which is a bargain considering that weak 2013 draft but when he's your only Top 5 high lotto pick it doesn't cut it. With a longterm commitment invested in our backcourt of 2 undersized positionless guards who aren't quite elite scoring combo guards or proven playmakers its a risky proposition and I don't know if we have the recipe for success given our lackluster frontcourt. We're really just hoping for BKnight and Bled's upward season byseason trajectory to continue and reach a pinnacle. ' I know its crying over spilt milk but really the '13-'14 season was a make it or break it year where we were set up to reach the climactic pot of gold at the end of the rainbow after naturally tanking only to be derailed by an overachieving squad lead by a deceivingly irreplicable career year from Dragic making an All-NBA team that lead us down this indefinitely winding path of prolonged conbuilding. If we're satiated with perennially being on the outside looking in then sure we don't need a change of course but its you need to raise your standards because you have to achieve something of worth as a prospective contender even if you fall short.

[suns91fan]

Those are mostly teams that were not "tanking". Just kinda treadmilling outside of the playoffs.

It's funny that you say GS first when they just won a title. So I guess you didn't mean forever.

Anyhow, the word forever was what I had a problem with. It seems you meant 5-10 years?

GS didn't make the playoffs for a bunch of years other than their upset of the Mavs 8 years ago or so. If you don't know history and are new to the game, it's tough to understand for you, so I am trying to give examples. Most of those teams didn't make it for close to a decade, or made it maybe once, despite having top 10 picks year after year.

Top-10 picks are for suckers. Top-5 picks are for tankers.

It seems I really got your vag in a twist over this. Again, you said forever. Now you're changing it. Words have meaning, say what you mean and be clear.

So Warriors are suckers? Their whole core was drafted outside of the top 5. Curry (7), Thompson (11), Green (35), Barnes (7), Ellis (40) (traded for Bogut).

[HartfordWhalers]

http://nba.derekbodner.com/2014/08/28/how-the-sixers-did-and-didnt-turn-a-profit-last-year/

Yeah, Derek is great. Anything he writes is worth reading.

And trading for salaries halfway through the season is a big part of it. I'm going to get careless and not look it up, but I believe the final number for this past season was that Philly managed to pay 8-10m below the salary floor last year, which is a huge cushion and makes the tanking not hurt so bad financially.

Since taking over, the new Philly owners have shown a willingness to shell out massive money (amnestying Brand and putting out a really expensive team with Bynum), and then to disregard revenues and tank hard for a star. But through it they have also done some really interesting financial stuff. I won't be surprised if the salary floor gets changed next CBA for instance, {although it is interesting that no one ever called the teams dumping salary right before the trade deadline to get out of the lux tax cheating it because they stayed above the lux tax for half a season yet finished below it and paid none}.

[bwgood77]

GS didn't make the playoffs for a bunch of years other than their upset of the Mavs 8 years ago or so. If you don't know history and are new to the game, it's tough to understand for you, so I am trying to give examples. Most of those teams didn't make it for close to a decade, or made it maybe once, despite having top 10 picks year after year.

Top-10 picks are for suckers. Top-5 picks are for tankers.

It seems I really got your vag in a twist over this. Again, you said forever. Now you're changing it. Words have meaning, say what you mean and be clear.

So Warriors are suckers? Their whole core was drafted outside of the top 5. Curry (7), Thompson (11), Green (35), Barnes (7), Ellis (40) (traded for Bogut).

Also traded for Iguodala.