If your favorite NBA player pulled a Kaepernick?

[MotownMadness]

God this new generation of cry babies is just beyond annoying. "My feelings hurt", "I need a safe zone", "Everyone is racists".

[JonFromVA]

If the anthem is really a declaration of love for slavery like I just read here, I wouldn't mind.

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/28/colin-kaepernick-is-righter-than-you-know-the-national-anthem-is-a-celebration-of-slavery/

If that's true, it's shocking how African-American players are cool with it.

I read that article and I'm not sure historians are unanimous in their agreement with that interpretation. The inclusion of the word "hirelings" muddies the waters a little.

Yeah, not a "celebration of of slavery" per se, but a recognition that slaves and others who were armed or paid by the British to fight for them against the US in the conflict were defeated in the battle.

The Star Spangled Banner was written at a time when slavery was permitted both in the US and in British colonies, so, it's not like there's a "right side" here.

[justicewinslow]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17415010/pittsburgh-steelers-lt-alejandro-villanueva-agree-colin-kaepernick-form-protest

"I don't know if the most effective way is to sit down during the national anthem with a country that's providing you freedom, providing you $16 million a year ... when there are black minorities that are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan for less than $20,000 a year."



This guy nailed it.

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[jbk1234]

Does he have something legitimate to be upset about, you bet.

So to me the question becomes one of the tactic.

Lots of people seem to think that he should be only rolling up his sleeves as part of some cause or donating money. And whose to say whether he does that or not.

That may make some difference , but more the likely goal here is shining a big bright spotlight on the issue he wants raised. Hard to argue this hasn't been insanely successful given the amount of commentary it's generated.

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When was the last time a player did that anonymously? If he was seriously involved with giving back to the community, a simple Google search would tell you as much. LBJ has a foundation. Jabari Parker just wrote a very good article about how specific policies that are making the south side of Chicago worse.

What Kaepernick did was the brooding teenager's version of a protest. It was reductive and counterproductive. It took very little thought or energy. He failed to identify specific problems or offer specific solutions. It's a millionaire calling an entire nation racist and deciding that the best way to address that racism was to engage in offensive symbolism solely for the purpose of provoking.

A very good point, although I want to note I'd never heard of Jabari's article, whereas I heard about this basically immediately as it happened. I think a good argument could be made Colin's method reached a far greater number of people, and if it directs those people towards methods that are more intelligent and thought-provoking, I'd call that a win even if Colin himself doesn't have anything insightful to say.

And if it pisses off more people than it inspires (which I suspect will be the case), then what? These blanket accusations of racism do a lot more harm than good. Too many white people use these types of "protests" to say look it doesn't matter what you do because you're going to be labelled a racist anyway. If Colin doesn't care enough to put his money where his mouth is, and he doesn't care enough to identify specific ways in which systemic racism exists and can be addressed, then he shouldn't offend people just for the sake of offending them. Our country is plagued with this type of destructive immaturity when it comes to anger. Look at Trump.

Edit - here's a link to Parker's article: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/jabari-parker-chicago-gun-violence/

[jbk1234]

If the anthem is really a declaration of love for slavery like I just read here, I wouldn't mind.

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/28/colin-kaepernick-is-righter-than-you-know-the-national-anthem-is-a-celebration-of-slavery/

If that's true, it's shocking how African-American players are cool with it.

I read that article and I'm not sure historians are unanimous in their agreement with that interpretation. The inclusion of the word "hirelings" muddies the waters a little.

Yeah, not a "celebration of of slavery" per se, but a recognition that slaves and others who were armed or paid by the British to fight for them against the US in the conflict were defeated in the battle.

The Star Spangled Banner was written at a time when slavery was permitted both in the US and in British colonies, so, it's not like there's a "right side" here.

There's a good deal of revisionist history when it comes to the British and slavery. It was British governors who turned slavery into an institution after Bacon's Rebellion in the colonies.

[nomansland]

God this new generation of cry babies is just beyond annoying. "My feelings hurt", "I need a safe zone", "Everyone is racists".

The crybabies are the ones who get all upset because some dude doesn't want to participate in a nationalistic ritual. "Spitting in their faces" and all of that crap.

Get over it, it's his right.

And I'm probably older than you are.

[Bergmaniac]

What is the connection between respecting the army and standing during the national anthem? Is that some US custom?

[nomansland]

What is the connection between respecting the army and standing during the national anthem? Is that some US custom?

No it's not. It's some tenuous link the "patriots" are making in order to put pressure on others to participate in their ritual.

[JulesWinnfield]

So I get a 16 hour suspension here merely for calling someone "dense" in response to their objection to me starting this thread... Whatever. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as having another post edited and chopped into oblivion until it is made to appear completely out of context and looks like I'm just randomly screaming at the clouds (post #8). Deleting the post I quoted and half my response. That's just Wack. Better off just deleting a post than chopping it up like that and adding confusion.

[MotownMadness]

God this new generation of cry babies is just beyond annoying. "My feelings hurt", "I need a safe zone", "Everyone is racists".

The crybabies are the ones who get all upset because some dude doesn't want to participate in a nationalistic ritual. "Spitting in their faces" and all of that crap.

Get over it, it's his right.

And I'm probably older than you are.

I don't care what he does as he's just a idiot trying to stir up some **** making millions talking about being suppressed. I don't know if you are older then me or not as I'm 31 but I'm just saying grown men have become a serious bunch of wimps I. This country and it's pathetic.

Could you seriously even imagine this new generation if they actually had to fight in ground wars or something for their freedom that they rag on constantly. They would be looking for a safe zone to try and get their feelings back under control. Its just becoming too much. The days of a man acting like a man and not a little crybaby wimp every two seconds are just long gone. America has just become a bunch of spoiled cry babies now.

[jbk1234]

What is the connection between respecting the army and standing during the national anthem? Is that some US custom?

No it's not. It's some tenuous link the "patriots" are making in order to put pressure on others to participate in their ritual.

Come on it's a custom. Now it may be a custom that some don't agree with and that's fine. But it's not like standing for the National Anthem started with Fox News. It's been around for a long, long time.

[CrookedJ]

Does he have something legitimate to be upset about, you bet.

So to me the question becomes one of the tactic.

Lots of people seem to think that he should be only rolling up his sleeves as part of some cause or donating money. And whose to say whether he does that or not.

That may make some difference , but more the likely goal here is shining a big bright spotlight on the issue he wants raised. Hard to argue this hasn't been insanely successful given the amount of commentary it's generated.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

When was the last time a player did that anonymously? If he was seriously involved with giving back to the community, a simple Google search would tell you as much. LBJ has a foundation. Jabari Parker just wrote a very good article about how specific policies that are making the south side of Chicago worse.

What Kaepernick did was the brooding teenager's version of a protest. It was reductive and counterproductive. It took very little thought or energy. He failed to identify specific problems or offer specific solutions. It's a millionaire calling an entire nation racist and deciding that the best way to address that racism was to engage in offensive symbolism solely for the purpose of provoking.

A very good point, although I want to note I'd never heard of Jabari's article, whereas I heard about this basically immediately as it happened. I think a good argument could be made Colin's method reached a far greater number of people, and if it directs those people towards methods that are more intelligent and thought-provoking, I'd call that a win even if Colin himself doesn't have anything insightful to say.

I didn't know about Parker, but will look it up. Shows the reach that a ( I expect to find) thoughtful written response gets. And more power to him for engaging on it.

Everyone can speak their conscience in the way they see fit.

I do not however accept that Kaeps point is in any way invalidated by not offering a solution. Many many dedicated people have worked on this matter for their entire lives without solving it.

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[Bergmaniac]

What is the connection between respecting the army and standing during the national anthem? Is that some US custom?

No it's not. It's some tenuous link the "patriots" are making in order to put pressure on others to participate in their ritual.

Come on it's a custom. Now it may be a custom that some don't agree with and that's fine. But it's not like standing for the National Anthem started with Fox News. It's been around for a long, long time.

I know about the standing for the National Anthem being a custom, that's pretty much universal. It's all these claims that the ones who don't do it disrespect and insult veterans and service members by doing so which seems strange to me.

[nomansland]

What is the connection between respecting the army and standing during the national anthem? Is that some US custom?

No it's not. It's some tenuous link the "patriots" are making in order to put pressure on others to participate in their ritual.

Come on it's a custom. Now it may be a custom that some don't agree with and that's fine. But it's not like standing for the National Anthem started with Fox News. It's been around for a long, long time.

It's a tradition based on flag respect (which is also stupid) but isn't necessarily connected with showing respect for military personnel.

[jbk1234]

When was the last time a player did that anonymously? If he was seriously involved with giving back to the community, a simple Google search would tell you as much. LBJ has a foundation. Jabari Parker just wrote a very good article about how specific policies that are making the south side of Chicago worse.

What Kaepernick did was the brooding teenager's version of a protest. It was reductive and counterproductive. It took very little thought or energy. He failed to identify specific problems or offer specific solutions. It's a millionaire calling an entire nation racist and deciding that the best way to address that racism was to engage in offensive symbolism solely for the purpose of provoking.

A very good point, although I want to note I'd never heard of Jabari's article, whereas I heard about this basically immediately as it happened. I think a good argument could be made Colin's method reached a far greater number of people, and if it directs those people towards methods that are more intelligent and thought-provoking, I'd call that a win even if Colin himself doesn't have anything insightful to say.

I didn't know about Parker, but will look it up. Shows the reach that a ( I expect to find) thoughtful written response gets. And more power to him for engaging on it.

Everyone can speak their conscience in the way they see fit.

I do not however accept that Kaeps point is in any way invalidated by not offering a solution. Many many dedicated people have worked on this matter for their entire lives without solving it.

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It's not only that he doesn't offer a solution, he doesn't even begin to identify specific problems. I'm not impressed by people who offend just for the sake of offending. It's intellectually lazy, emotionally indulgent and ultimately counterproductive.

"I think America's racist so I'm going to sit during the national anthem." Oh okay. Well thank you for contributing.

[nomansland]

God this new generation of cry babies is just beyond annoying. "My feelings hurt", "I need a safe zone", "Everyone is racists".

The crybabies are the ones who get all upset because some dude doesn't want to participate in a nationalistic ritual. "Spitting in their faces" and all of that crap.

Get over it, it's his right.

And I'm probably older than you are.

I don't care what he does as he's just a idiot trying to stir up some **** making millions talking about being suppressed. I don't know if you are older then me or not as I'm 31 but I'm just saying grown men have become a serious bunch of wimps I. This country and it's pathetic.

Could you seriously even imagine this new generation if they actually had to fight in ground wars or something for their freedom that they rag on constantly. They would be looking for a safe zone to try and get their feelings back under control. Its just becoming too much. The days of a man acting like a man and not a little crybaby wimp every two seconds are just long gone. America has just become a bunch of spoiled cry babies now.

Personally, I'm glad my kids question our willingness to dive headfirst into a stupid war. Doesn't mean they wouldn't do their part if they had to.

[coachcav]

He has the freedom of expression in this country and so do his critics. America isn't flawless but neither is any other country.

I have an issue with people who make millions of dollars playing sports who are critical of society but who have no problem keeping all the money they earn to themselves. When everyone views improving society as someone else's job, it turns into no one's job.

He EARNED that money. He doesn't have to give it to you, me or anyone else. He earned it for a reason. The people's job that is to make society better is the politicians and one's in power. That is why we elect them. However they are not doing their jobs and are causing more problems and divide. They keep saying they are going to do something but never follow through.

He earned his money (playing a game) and he can keep it. But if he's not going to invest back into communities that struggle to get outside capital, if he's not using his fame and fortune to set up a non-profit that can tackle some of the problems in those same communities, then I'd rather not hear him get all sanctimonious. He's lecturing people who don't make in a decade what he makes in a month.

Spare me it's the government's job argument. There are things the government is good at and things the government isn't good at. Sitting around waiting for the government (read other people) to fix it is a big part of why we're in this mess.

We elect them yearly to every four years depending on the type of position. We put them in power to do their job and we pay their salaries with our taxes. Your "spare me the government job argument" is really dumb. That is what people should do right? We want things done and they are not doing we kick them out. It is the governments responsibility to fix the problems.

Instead they tell you what you want to hear and say they are going to do certain things and don't actually do most of it. We are in this mess because the majority keep putting stupid liberals and republicans in power. (see the two candidates that are representing the country)

The people you speak of are the same ones that say they are so patriotic and all for freedom then cry about it and get offended when actually an athlete uses their freedom to express themselves. They find someone way to put them down like "he was raised by white people, he doesn't know what oppression is". It is a double standard and frankly annoying. They cant even respect another person's freedom. Instead they come up with a another lousy argument to deviate from the original topic that was protested. All I am hearing they died for his freedom it is disrespectful, but yet when he uses that freedom he is unamerican and he is hates the military.

[coachcav]

God this new generation of cry babies is just beyond annoying. "My feelings hurt", "I need a safe zone", "Everyone is racists".

The generation that is crying about this is really the older ones.

[JulesWinnfield]

you're an idiot if you think taking issue with Kap (and not even necessarily issue with his actions in this particular instance) makes someone a white supremacist. A grade A mental midget who just likes to use racial buzz words

To me the messenger matters. I don't think Kap is a great messenger.

Who specifically would you consider to be an acceptable messenger?

I think with most athletes I'd take their attempt at face value. Even if I disagree with the particular tact, there are certainly issues in this country that must be addressed, and I'd view their effort as wholly genuine. Again, I don't find this to be the most productive way, but whatever...

In the case of Colin K though, everything about this dude since the first day he entered the league has been soaked in "hey, look at me, I'm counter culture!" I can't help but think this 'statement' in not standing is just something to further this persona he's putting on display. I think the guy is kind of a wannabe NFL Iverson. Only I viewed Iverson as genuine, I think Kap is a cornball who tries too hard, and my impression is that his biggest motivation here is to seem cool to people he sees as cool

[jbk1234]

He EARNED that money. He doesn't have to give it to you, me or anyone else. He earned it for a reason. The people's job that is to make society better is the politicians and one's in power. That is why we elect them. However they are not doing their jobs and are causing more problems and divide. They keep saying they are going to do something but never follow through.

He earned his money (playing a game) and he can keep it. But if he's not going to invest back into communities that struggle to get outside capital, if he's not using his fame and fortune to set up a non-profit that can tackle some of the problems in those same communities, then I'd rather not hear him get all sanctimonious. He's lecturing people who don't make in a decade what he makes in a month.

Spare me it's the government's job argument. There are things the government is good at and things the government isn't good at. Sitting around waiting for the government (read other people) to fix it is a big part of why we're in this mess.

We elect them yearly to every four years depending on the type of position. We put them in power to do their job and we pay their salaries with our taxes. Your "spare me the government job argument" is really dumb. That is what people should do right? We want things done and they are not doing we kick them out. It is the governments responsibility to fix the problems.

Instead they tell you what you want to hear and say they are going to do certain things and don't actually do most of it. We are in this mess because the majority keep putting stupid liberals and republicans in power. (see the two candidates that are representing the country)

The people you speak of are the same ones that say they are so patriotic and all for freedom then cry about it and get offended when actually an athlete uses their freedom to express themselves. They find someone way to put them down like "he was raised by white people, he doesn't know what oppression is". It is a double standard and frankly annoying. They cant even respect another person's freedom. Instead they come up with a another lousy argument to deviate from the original topic that was protested. All I am hearing they died for his freedom it is disrespectful, but yet when he uses that freedom he is unamerican and he is hates the military.

First, the citizens of this country don't all agree what the problems are and they certainly don't agree as to what the solutions are. Our government is a reflection of the voters and we have divided government for a reason. The government doesn't exist independent of the people. He said he didn't stand because America was racist. He couldn't even be bothered to identify specific examples of systemic racism or offer specific solutions. The notion that the government just needs to "fix it," when it comes to blanket statements like that, is inane. It's the type of magical thinking that leads to Trump getting the nomination. We have problems, it's someone else's job to fix them, and I'm angry "they" haven't fixed the problems the way I want them fixed even though I haven't put 10 minutes of effort into thinking about what the specific problems are or articulating potential solutions. That's how a teenager deal with his or her anger.