2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[therealbig3]

He has two all stars in his team, I will go and get him the smallest violin for some sympathy.

Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.

You're right. Kevin Love was a 26/12 scrub before he joined Lebron. We saw how Irving was in last season's playoffs. He has two all stars in his team.

I mean, if you want to ignore all the facts, fine.

But the most important fact of all: LeBron is the best player in the league, and his team would be garbage without him. With him, they're a 50+ win team and the #1 seed in their conference.

He's my pick for MVP, because he's the best player in the world, and he has the most impact for his team out of anyone.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Games like today are the reason that Russell Westbrook is not the MVP.

He's getting killed by one of the worst teams in the League and literally shot his team out of the game.

BUT OMG, once he stat-pads his way to a few more assists he's going to get a TRIPLE DOUBLE.

AKA the most arbitrary and overrated stat in American sports.

[therealbig3]

Games like today are the reason that Russell Westbrook is not the MVP.

He's getting killed by one of the worst teams in the League and literally shot his team out of the game.

BUT OMG, once he stat-pads his way to a few more assists he's going to get a TRIPLE DOUBLE.

AKA the most arbitrary and overrated stat in American sports.

Sure, random games here and there prove someone can't be MVP.

He's one of the league leaders in whatever +/- stat you want to use, in addition to his box score accomplishments. That's why he's in the MVP conversation.

[Impuniti]

Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.

You're right. Kevin Love was a 26/12 scrub before he joined Lebron. We saw how Irving was in last season's playoffs. He has two all stars in his team.

I mean, if you want to ignore all the facts, fine.

But the most important fact of all: LeBron is the best player in the league, and his team would be garbage without him. With him, they're a 50+ win team and the #1 seed in their conference.

He's my pick for MVP, because he's the best player in the world, and he has the most impact for his team out of anyone.

The idea that this team would be garbage without him is pretty delusional. They would take a bit of time to figure it out without him, you know.. like the Warriors all of the sudden were 3-5 after KD went out and then look what happened. In terms of impact, it depends what we're basing it off. With his current team, he should be hitting 60+ wins, not barely hitting 50+.

The Cavs this year have underperformed. That's a fact. And that should count if you'd like to make an MVP case. Irony here is hero worshipping a guy who has two all stars in his team while saying they would be garbage without him and telling me to stop ignoring the facts.

[Hello Brooklyn]

He has two all stars in his team, I will go and get him the smallest violin for some sympathy.

Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.

You're right. Kevin Love was a 26/12 scrub before he joined Lebron. We saw how Irving was in last season's playoffs. He has two all stars in his team.

Irving and Love are just terrible.

And Krover, JR Smith, Deron Williams, and Richard Jefferson form a terrible awful bench.

The Cavaliers also have a terrible GM (who can't find talent) and a horrid owner, who won't spend any money.

Lebron is the only reason the Cavaliers are even a basketball team. Rest of the guys should be playing JV at my high school.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Games like today are the reason that Russell Westbrook is not the MVP.

He's getting killed by one of the worst teams in the League and literally shot his team out of the game.

BUT OMG, once he stat-pads his way to a few more assists he's going to get a TRIPLE DOUBLE.

AKA the most arbitrary and overrated stat in American sports.

Sure, random games here and there prove someone can't be MVP.

He's one of the league leaders in whatever +/- stat you want to use, in addition to his box score accomplishments. That's why he's in the MVP conversation.

Yeah I'm pretty sure this isn't a random game, and is indicative of what Westbrook has been doing throughout the season.

Hard to have a bad plus minus when you have the highest usage rate in NBA HISTORY.

[therealbig3]

You're right. Kevin Love was a 26/12 scrub before he joined Lebron. We saw how Irving was in last season's playoffs. He has two all stars in his team.

I mean, if you want to ignore all the facts, fine.

But the most important fact of all: LeBron is the best player in the league, and his team would be garbage without him. With him, they're a 50+ win team and the #1 seed in their conference.

He's my pick for MVP, because he's the best player in the world, and he has the most impact for his team out of anyone.

The idea that this team would be garbage without him is pretty delusional. They would take a bit of time to figure it out without him, you know.. like the Warriors all of the sudden were 3-5 after KD went out and then look what happened. In terms of impact, it depends what we're basing it off. With his current team, he should be hitting 60+ wins, not barely hitting 50+.

The Cavs this year have underperformed. That's a fact. And that should count if you'd like to make an MVP case.

The team underperformed, because his teammates underperformed. Show me any objective evidence that LeBron himself underperformed. There is none. His +/- is one of the best in the league, if not the best (it's between him and Curry last I checked).

It's not delusional at all. The team actually plays like crap when he's not on the court. Doesn't matter if Kyrie and Love are on the court without him. They still suck. He's literally the only positive impact defender they have on the team, without him...they'd probably be the worst defense in the league...with him, they're merely just bad, and outside the top 20. Their offense would also fall apart without him, since his drive and kick game opens the floor up for all of their shooters. Kyrie Irving is a SG in a PG's body, and Kevin Love creating for himself is not optimal offense. A team with a shoot-first PG that tends to have tunnel vision and a bunch of players that need to be set up in order to succeed on offense, and everyone on the team being bad defenders...that team is going to be anything but awful?

[Hero]

46-47 wins is simply not enough for MVP. Can't just randomly change what it means to qualify for the award.

Although, it sure seems like the media is trying to. All of a sudden wins mean less than triple doubles...

[therealbig3]

Games like today are the reason that Russell Westbrook is not the MVP.

He's getting killed by one of the worst teams in the League and literally shot his team out of the game.

BUT OMG, once he stat-pads his way to a few more assists he's going to get a TRIPLE DOUBLE.

AKA the most arbitrary and overrated stat in American sports.

Sure, random games here and there prove someone can't be MVP.

He's one of the league leaders in whatever +/- stat you want to use, in addition to his box score accomplishments. That's why he's in the MVP conversation.

Yeah I'm pretty sure this isn't a random game, and is indicative of what Westbrook has been doing throughout the season.

Hard to have a bad plus minus when you have the highest usage rate in NBA HISTORY.

Except it's not indicative of what Westbrook has been doing all season. When he has a triple double this season, they have an extremely high winning percentage. He's been an efficient scorer and overall efficient offensive player all season long as well.

Usage rate and +/- are two totally different things and have nothing to do with each other. A ball hog that's stat padding to the detriment of the team would have a terrible +/-. Westbrook has one of the best. That means what he's doing works, and that he's doing a great job.

[Hero]

Double post.

[mvpshaq32]

maybe next game Westbrook. Gonna look ugly when he's clearly chasing the TD and getting blown out by the Suns

[Hello Brooklyn]

I mean, if you want to ignore all the facts, fine.

But the most important fact of all: LeBron is the best player in the league, and his team would be garbage without him. With him, they're a 50+ win team and the #1 seed in their conference.

He's my pick for MVP, because he's the best player in the world, and he has the most impact for his team out of anyone.

The idea that this team would be garbage without him is pretty delusional. They would take a bit of time to figure it out without him, you know.. like the Warriors all of the sudden were 3-5 after KD went out and then look what happened. In terms of impact, it depends what we're basing it off. With his current team, he should be hitting 60+ wins, not barely hitting 50+.

The Cavs this year have underperformed. That's a fact. And that should count if you'd like to make an MVP case.

The team underperformed, because his teammates underperformed. Show me any objective evidence that LeBron himself underperformed. There is none. His +/- is one of the best in the league, if not the best (it's between him and Curry last I checked).

It's not delusional at all. The team actually plays like crap when he's not on the court. Doesn't matter if Kyrie and Love are on the court without him. They still suck. He's literally the only positive impact defender they have on the team, without him...they'd probably be the worst defense in the league...with him, they're merely just bad, and outside the top 20. Their offense would also fall apart without him, since his drive and kick game opens the floor up for all of their shooters. Kyrie Irving is a SG in a PG's body, and Kevin Love creating for himself is not optimal offense. A team with a shoot-first PG that tends to have tunnel vision and a bunch of players that need to be set up in order to succeed on offense, and everyone on the team being bad defenders...that team is going to be anything but awful?

Is this a joke?

The team under preforms and Lebron take's no responsibility? It's called being a **** leader.

Lebron EASILY has the 2nd most talented team in the NBA. They have 3 All-Stars, and they are winning way less games than they should.

The fact that the Cavaliers are not a 60 win team in the East is laughable.

When someone wins the MVP award, they usually over achieve. Lebron is woefully under achieving.

He shouldn't even be considered for the MVP.

[Impuniti]

I mean, if you want to ignore all the facts, fine.

But the most important fact of all: LeBron is the best player in the league, and his team would be garbage without him. With him, they're a 50+ win team and the #1 seed in their conference.

He's my pick for MVP, because he's the best player in the world, and he has the most impact for his team out of anyone.

The idea that this team would be garbage without him is pretty delusional. They would take a bit of time to figure it out without him, you know.. like the Warriors all of the sudden were 3-5 after KD went out and then look what happened. In terms of impact, it depends what we're basing it off. With his current team, he should be hitting 60+ wins, not barely hitting 50+.

The Cavs this year have underperformed. That's a fact. And that should count if you'd like to make an MVP case.

The team underperformed, because his teammates underperformed. Show me any objective evidence that LeBron himself underperformed. There is none. His +/- is one of the best in the league, if not the best (it's between him and Curry last I checked).

It's not delusional at all. The team actually plays like crap when he's not on the court. Doesn't matter if Kyrie and Love are on the court without him. They still suck. He's literally the only positive impact defender they have on the team, without him...they'd probably be the worst defense in the league...with him, they're merely just bad, and outside the top 20. Their offense would also fall apart without him, since his drive and kick game opens the floor up for all of their shooters. Kyrie Irving is a SG in a PG's body, and Kevin Love creating for himself is not optimal offense. A team with a shoot-first PG that tends to have tunnel vision and a bunch of players that need to be set up in order to succeed on offense, and everyone on the team being bad defenders...that team is going to be anything but awful?

That team would adjust to play in a different manner. What you're describing is a team that plays in a Lebron-system and would need time to adjust to playing differently. There is no way that they would be some scrub team without him. Players like TT, Swish, on top of Love and Kyrie would make a good enough push on the East. Lebron just turns them from a good Eastern team to elite contender, which is what a player of his caliber is supposed to do.

I know they are playing terrible basketball at the moment, but they were pretty damn great team basketball in the first half of the season. And you can't complain about the team when LeGM is making these decisions. I just can't take these half assed excuses seriously. It reminds me of top rs games where Cavs lose, it's because Lebron didn't take it seriously, and when they win look how great he is.

Defensively they have issues though, but I'll wait and see until JR and Love are fully in the groove of things before we overcomplicate things. They had some good defense the night before where the Celtics got dominated defensively. To me, a lot of this is 1. team attitude problem, and 2. coaching issue.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Sure, random games here and there prove someone can't be MVP.

He's one of the league leaders in whatever +/- stat you want to use, in addition to his box score accomplishments. That's why he's in the MVP conversation.

Yeah I'm pretty sure this isn't a random game, and is indicative of what Westbrook has been doing throughout the season.

Hard to have a bad plus minus when you have the highest usage rate in NBA HISTORY.

Except it's not indicative of what Westbrook has been doing all season. When he has a triple double this season, they have an extremely high winning percentage. He's been an efficient scorer and overall efficient offensive player all season long as well.

Usage rate and +/- are two totally different things and have nothing to do with each other. A ball hog that's stat padding to the detriment of the team would have a terrible +/-. Westbrook has one of the best. That means what he's doing works, and that he's doing a great job.

I'm not talking about his Triple Doubles. Westbrook is shooting 42% from the field. That's below league average.

I expect good efficiency from the MVP of the league, not worse than most of the NBA.

[-Sammy-]

Lebron has no business being in the MVP race. His team is under-performing by some margin this season.

The way they've been playing, they'd be a bottom-five lottery team without LeBron, instead of a 51-win conference leader. That's a huge argument in favor of him as the MVP.

He has two all stars in his team, I will go and get him the smallest violin for some sympathy.

LeBron has been fabulous all season; even his most ardent haters have to admit that; therefore, the discussion concerns the quality of the rest of the team. You can't have it both ways-- you can't observe that they're under-performing in an attempt to dismiss LeBron's contribution, then turn around and proclaim that they have two all-stars to negate the importance of said contribution.

The evidence speaks for itself; they're been under-performing this season (as you rightly observed), yet they're a 50-plus-win team leading the entire conference; LeBron is the reason for that.

[Impuniti]

The idea that this team would be garbage without him is pretty delusional. They would take a bit of time to figure it out without him, you know.. like the Warriors all of the sudden were 3-5 after KD went out and then look what happened. In terms of impact, it depends what we're basing it off. With his current team, he should be hitting 60+ wins, not barely hitting 50+.

The Cavs this year have underperformed. That's a fact. And that should count if you'd like to make an MVP case.

The team underperformed, because his teammates underperformed. Show me any objective evidence that LeBron himself underperformed. There is none. His +/- is one of the best in the league, if not the best (it's between him and Curry last I checked).

It's not delusional at all. The team actually plays like crap when he's not on the court. Doesn't matter if Kyrie and Love are on the court without him. They still suck. He's literally the only positive impact defender they have on the team, without him...they'd probably be the worst defense in the league...with him, they're merely just bad, and outside the top 20. Their offense would also fall apart without him, since his drive and kick game opens the floor up for all of their shooters. Kyrie Irving is a SG in a PG's body, and Kevin Love creating for himself is not optimal offense. A team with a shoot-first PG that tends to have tunnel vision and a bunch of players that need to be set up in order to succeed on offense, and everyone on the team being bad defenders...that team is going to be anything but awful?

Is this a joke?

The team under preforms and Lebron take's no responsibility? It's called being a **** leader.

Lebron EASILY has the 2nd most talented team in the NBA. They have 3 All-Stars, and they are winning way less games than they should.

The fact that the Cavaliers are not a 60 win team in the East is laughable.

When someone wins the MVP award, they usually over achieve. Lebron is woefully under achieving.

He shouldn't even be considered for the MVP.

He's probably the same guy like so many here that sings when Lebron beats a good team in regular season
- he's the GOAT
and when they lose or get dominated,
- Lebron obviously doesn't care about regular season

These kinds of cringe mental gymnastics always work in your favor when you see what you want to see. Apparently, we all need to feel bad for poor Lebron who has 2 all stars in his team on top of the highest payroll in the league by far for how many years running now?

[therealbig3]

The idea that this team would be garbage without him is pretty delusional. They would take a bit of time to figure it out without him, you know.. like the Warriors all of the sudden were 3-5 after KD went out and then look what happened. In terms of impact, it depends what we're basing it off. With his current team, he should be hitting 60+ wins, not barely hitting 50+.

The Cavs this year have underperformed. That's a fact. And that should count if you'd like to make an MVP case.

The team underperformed, because his teammates underperformed. Show me any objective evidence that LeBron himself underperformed. There is none. His +/- is one of the best in the league, if not the best (it's between him and Curry last I checked).

It's not delusional at all. The team actually plays like crap when he's not on the court. Doesn't matter if Kyrie and Love are on the court without him. They still suck. He's literally the only positive impact defender they have on the team, without him...they'd probably be the worst defense in the league...with him, they're merely just bad, and outside the top 20. Their offense would also fall apart without him, since his drive and kick game opens the floor up for all of their shooters. Kyrie Irving is a SG in a PG's body, and Kevin Love creating for himself is not optimal offense. A team with a shoot-first PG that tends to have tunnel vision and a bunch of players that need to be set up in order to succeed on offense, and everyone on the team being bad defenders...that team is going to be anything but awful?

Is this a joke?

The team under preforms and Lebron take's no responsibility? It's called being a **** leader.

Lebron EASILY has the 2nd most talented team in the NBA. They have 3 All-Stars, and they are winning way less games than they should.

The fact that the Cavaliers are not a 60 win team in the East is laughable.

When someone wins the MVP award, they usually over achieve. Lebron is woefully under achieving.

He shouldn't even be considered for the MVP.

The Cavs play well when he's on the court, and then play like crap when he's off the court.

Yup, it's LeBron's fault that nobody else on the team knows how to play defense or run an efficient offense without him.

I mean, I already explained this, but I expect you to totally ignore it and act indignant, as per usual.

[Impuniti]

The way they've been playing, they'd be a bottom-five lottery team without LeBron, instead of a 51-win conference leader. That's a huge argument in favor of him as the MVP.

He has two all stars in his team, I will go and get him the smallest violin for some sympathy.

LeBron has been fabulous all season; even his most ardent haters have to admit that; therefore, the discussion concerns the quality of the rest of the team. You can't have it both ways-- you can't observe that they're under-performing in an attempt to dismiss LeBron's contribution, then turn around and proclaim that they have two all-stars to negate the importance of said contribution.

The evidence speaks for itself; they're been under-performing this season (as you rightly observed), yet they're a 50-plus-win team leading the entire conference; LeBron is the reason for that.

You can't be an MVP player if your team underperforms though, that's kind of a huge point of being an MVP during the year I would think. I agree that Bron has been great this season as well, but your job as a leader is to get the team to perform.. which they haven't. So he's responsible for it.

This seems like the only season where NBA fans are making a lot of changes on what's expected out the MVP.

[Hello Brooklyn]

The team underperformed, because his teammates underperformed. Show me any objective evidence that LeBron himself underperformed. There is none. His +/- is one of the best in the league, if not the best (it's between him and Curry last I checked).

It's not delusional at all. The team actually plays like crap when he's not on the court. Doesn't matter if Kyrie and Love are on the court without him. They still suck. He's literally the only positive impact defender they have on the team, without him...they'd probably be the worst defense in the league...with him, they're merely just bad, and outside the top 20. Their offense would also fall apart without him, since his drive and kick game opens the floor up for all of their shooters. Kyrie Irving is a SG in a PG's body, and Kevin Love creating for himself is not optimal offense. A team with a shoot-first PG that tends to have tunnel vision and a bunch of players that need to be set up in order to succeed on offense, and everyone on the team being bad defenders...that team is going to be anything but awful?

Is this a joke?

The team under preforms and Lebron take's no responsibility? It's called being a **** leader.

Lebron EASILY has the 2nd most talented team in the NBA. They have 3 All-Stars, and they are winning way less games than they should.

The fact that the Cavaliers are not a 60 win team in the East is laughable.

When someone wins the MVP award, they usually over achieve. Lebron is woefully under achieving.

He shouldn't even be considered for the MVP.

The Cavs play well when he's on the court, and then play like crap when he's off the court.

Yup, it's LeBron's fault that nobody else on the team knows how to play defense or run an efficient offense without him.

I mean, I already explained this, but I expect you to totally ignore it and act indignant, as per usual.

Yeah I already heard Lebron cry about how nobody could run the offense and needed a play maker.

Then Griffin went out and got him the best backup Point Guard in the league.

Not exactly buying that excuse.

Hard for me to believe that the 2nd most talented roster in the NBA is just so terrible and awful. The problem then is either leadership or coaching.

Lebron is in charge of both.

[therealbig3]

Ah, the old "LeBron makes everyone else worse" argument. Literally no basis in reality.

And Kyrie/Love/JR/TT sounds like a train wreck.

What exactly have Kyrie and Love ever led a team to without LeBron to warrant all of this faith in their abilities?

Like I said, their offense would be way worse, and their defense would be historically bad.

As for the "LeBron system"...what exactly about the system is preventing the rest of the players from succeeding when he's on the bench, or resting? Does LeBron not often get criticized for deferring to Kyrie a lot? Does Kyrie not handle the ball a lot? Does Kyrie not have autonomy to do what he wants? Do the Cavs not run plays for Love in the post? Does Love not get shot attempts? Does Love not get the ball in the mid to high post to serve as a passing hub (which is one of his biggest strengths)?

There's nothing about how the Cavs play that is inherently restrictive of Kyrie or Love...they just don't play winning basketball unless they're on the court with LeBron. It's that simple.