Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships

[dc]

Just Phil's way of boasting that he's better than Pop. Nothing else to see.

[-Sammy-]

top 5-8 all time and anything lower than 10-11 is just pure hate and ignorance.

I have him 12th and I'm neither ignorant not hateful.

[CoffeeCakez]

top 5-8 all time and anything lower than 10-11 is just pure hate and ignorance.

I have him 12th and I'm neither ignorant not hateful.

who do you have above him in the 6-10 range?

[Long2s]

Because he is the only legitimate player that challenge Jordan and Kareem and everybody deep down knows it--so throwing shade at him is a attempt at creating a buffer zone to keep those twos legacies safe from any debate.

People gas up Kobe knowing full well he is not in that conversation and its not going to really impact anything besides getting lolz

Lebron is a challenge to Karl Malone and Charles Barkley, that kind of tier. He isn't even in contention for being better than Tim Duncan or Shaq, let alone MJ or Kareem.

Thats insane , I mean makes no sense in any rational thought.

Lebron teamed up with the number 2 and number 4 in PER in Miami.

Lets say Karl Malone does that in 1996. He was number 4 himself, but number 2 is David Robinson and number 5 is Hakeem. I guess not the most balanced team, so let's just go with number 8 in Anfernee Hardaway.

Penny
Karl Malone
David Robinson

Yeah, I think that core might manage to win a championship or 4 in a row.

What about Barkley?

Lets say he leaves Philly in 1990 and teams up with the PER leaders from 1989.

That's Karl Malone and Magic Johnson.

Barkley
Karl Malone
Magic Johnson

Yeah, I think they might be able to win a championship or 4 in a row.

[-Sammy-]

top 5-8 all time and anything lower than 10-11 is just pure hate and ignorance.

I have him 12th and I'm neither ignorant not hateful.

who do you have above him in the 6-10 range?

My 6-10 is Bird, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem. I have Oscar at 11th, but some days, Kobe and Oscar tie for 11th, depending on whether I'm feeling bullish on Kobe or bearish on Oscar that day.

[CoffeeCakez]

I have him 12th and I'm neither ignorant not hateful.

who do you have above him in the 6-10 range?

My 6-10 is Bird, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem. I have Oscar at 11th, but some days, Kobe and Oscar tie for 11th, depending on whether I'm feeling bullish on Kobe or bearish on Oscar that day.

lol bird? oh my where do I start with this one...
kobe has had more all nba 1st team selections, way more all defensive team selections, scoring champ twice which bird was none
not to mention 5 > 3 rings (and don't tell me shaq carried him)
oh and total points scored over their respective careers

cmon man you gotta do better than that. I respect your list but don't put down kobe unless there are legit reasons.

the others I can argue too but that would involve lengthy discussions

[Long2s]

Lol and Bird should never be in the same sentence.

[Long2s]

I have him 12th and I'm neither ignorant not hateful.

who do you have above him in the 6-10 range?

My 6-10 is Bird, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem. I have Oscar at 11th, but some days, Kobe and Oscar tie for 11th, depending on whether I'm feeling bullish on Kobe or bearish on Oscar that day.

We're talking about Lebron ranked 12th right?

[PhilBlackson]

I never liked rings as the main defining quality of who's better than who...it's a flawed measurement at best.

I'll take Karl Malone over Horace Grant 10x out of 10 etc. etc.

[-Sammy-]

who do you have above him in the 6-10 range?

My 6-10 is Bird, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem. I have Oscar at 11th, but some days, Kobe and Oscar tie for 11th, depending on whether I'm feeling bullish on Kobe or bearish on Oscar that day.

cmon man you gotta do better than that. I respect your list

No, you don't; phrases such as 'lol' and 'you gotta do better than that' are inherently disrespectful, which speaks to my original point in replying to your post from earlier.

I think 5-8 is too high for Kobe, but that's just my opinion; I recognize and respect that others see the game differently, which is why although I'll disagree with you, I won't laugh at your opinion or disrespect you for having it.

That's why I took issue with you saying 'anything lower than 10-11 is just pure hate and ignorance.' It's pretentious for you to decide that anyone who ranks him lower than you think he should be ranked must be either ignorant or motivated by hatred, just like it would be pretentious of me to assume that you must be an irrational 'fanboy' simply because you rank him higher than I think he should be ranked.

don't put down kobe unless there are legit reasons.

This is the other problem with your approach: where in this thread did I write anything that could be called a putdown in any reasonable sense of the word? In fact, the only thing I've written about Kobe here tonight is this:

...the people who have a million excuses for why (Kobe's) rings don't actually count are... irrational hater(s) who (refuse) to recognize the all-time greatness of an all-time great.

If calling Kobe an all-time great and ranking him 12th out of the many thousands of men who have played in the NBA is a putdown, can I please have someone put me down like that?

You've got to understand that someone ranking Kobe lower than you rank him isn't a putdown just because you disagree with it.

[-Sammy-]

who do you have above him in the 6-10 range?

My 6-10 is Bird, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem. I have Oscar at 11th, but some days, Kobe and Oscar tie for 11th, depending on whether I'm feeling bullish on Kobe or bearish on Oscar that day.

We're talking about Lebron ranked 12th right?

I'm afraid not.

[CoffeeCakez]

My 6-10 is Bird, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem. I have Oscar at 11th, but some days, Kobe and Oscar tie for 11th, depending on whether I'm feeling bullish on Kobe or bearish on Oscar that day.

cmon man you gotta do better than that. I respect your list

No, you don't; phrases such as 'lol' and 'you gotta do better than that' are inherently disrespectful, which speaks to my original point in replying to your post from earlier.

I think 5-8 is too high for Kobe, but that's just my opinion; I recognize and respect that others see the game differently, which is why although I'll disagree with you, I won't laugh at your opinion or disrespect you for having it.

That's why I took issue with you saying 'anything lower than 10-11 is just pure hate and ignorance.' It's pretentious for you to decide that anyone who ranks him lower than you think he should be ranked must be either ignorant or motivated by hatred, just like it would be pretentious of me to assume that you must be an irrational 'fanboy' simply because you rank him higher than I think he should be ranked.

don't put down kobe unless there are legit reasons.

This is the other problem with your approach: where in this thread did I write anything that could be called a putdown in any reasonable sense of the word? In fact, the only thing I've written about Kobe here tonight is this:

...the people who have a million excuses for why (Kobe's) rings don't actually count are... irrational hater(s) who (refuse) to recognize the all-time greatness of an all-time great.

If calling Kobe an all-time great and ranking him 12th out of the many thousands of men who have played in the NBA is a putdown, can I please have someone put me down like that?

You've got to understand that someone ranking Kobe lower than you rank him isn't a putdown just because you disagree with it.

Ok I apologize for some of my language but having kobe below 11 definitely does not show respect for the man's impact on the game and his achievements. I listed the objective reasons why Kobe would be above bird that you chose to ignore. I can do the same for shaq and hakeem. this is where the comment "put kobe down unless there are legitimate reasons". From an objective standpoint of accomplishments kobe is above the players you listed.

But I guess we will just agree to disagree

[LastNameEver]

Im so tired of certain guys defaulting to the security blanket of titles being the end all.
It never sounds sincere, at least Jordan was the catalyst for all his titles.

[-Sammy-]

Spoiler:

cmon man you gotta do better than that. I respect your list

No, you don't; phrases such as 'lol' and 'you gotta do better than that' are inherently disrespectful, which speaks to my original point in replying to your post from earlier.

I think 5-8 is too high for Kobe, but that's just my opinion; I recognize and respect that others see the game differently, which is why although I'll disagree with you, I won't laugh at your opinion or disrespect you for having it.

That's why I took issue with you saying 'anything lower than 10-11 is just pure hate and ignorance.' It's pretentious for you to decide that anyone who ranks him lower than you think he should be ranked must be either ignorant or motivated by hatred, just like it would be pretentious of me to assume that you must be an irrational 'fanboy' simply because you rank him higher than I think he should be ranked.

don't put down kobe unless there are legit reasons.

This is the other problem with your approach: where in this thread did I write anything that could be called a putdown in any reasonable sense of the word? In fact, the only thing I've written about Kobe here tonight is this:

...the people who have a million excuses for why (Kobe's) rings don't actually count are... irrational hater(s) who (refuse) to recognize the all-time greatness of an all-time great.

If calling Kobe an all-time great and ranking him 12th out of the many thousands of men who have played in the NBA is a putdown, can I please have someone put me down like that?

You've got to understand that someone ranking Kobe lower than you rank him isn't a putdown just because you disagree with it.

Ok I apologize for some of my language

I appreciate that; thank you!

having kobe below 11 definitely does not show respect for the man's impact on the game and his achievements.

I can understand that viewpoint, but my point is that it comes down to the nature of the arguments. I've seen perfectly rational arguments for Kobe from #2 all the way to #15, and while I disagree with many of them, I recognize that we're dealing in opinions. If someone says 'Kobe's #12 because he's a rapist and Shaq carried him and the Lakers suck and blah blah blah', I know right away that that person has no interest in actually discussing basketball and I'll tune him right out, even though his rank for Kobe happens to line up with mine, because I came to my conclusion by evaluating the players as honestly as I can, whereas he obviously came to his conclusion by being an irrational hater.

Conversely, if someone says 'Kobe's #2 because he only has one less ring than the GOAT and his style of play is more similar to the GOAT than anyone else who ever played', I'll respect that argument and tip my hat to that guy for formulating a logical position based on relevant evidence, even though I vociferously disagree with where he has Kobe ranked.

The point is that we need to evaluate the motivations behind arguments on their own merits, not on whether we agree with the conclusions. We're never going to come to a consensus about this stuff, so it's more important that we treat the discussions the way they deserve to be treated-- both by rejecting bad arguments even if we like their conclusions and by respecting good ones even if we disagree with their conclusions.

I listed the objective reasons why Kobe would be above bird that you chose to ignore.

No, I didn't ignore them; I have perfectly valid responses for all those points, but as you pointed out earlier, exchanging our reasons for why we rank players where we do is a separate discussion and this isn't the thread for it. My point is that before we can even have that conversation, we've got to agree that we're going to respect each other and give each other the benefit of the doubt that we're both just trying to figure this whole crazy basketball thing out. When you come at me with 'anyone who ranks Kobe lower than #11 is ignorant', right away I'm going to assume that you've already made up your mind about me and aren't interested in actually hearing me out, and I'm probably going to get defensive and maybe decide to troll you or bait you, and that tends to lead to hostility and snark and personal attacks; you've been on RealGM long enough to have experienced that many times, as have I.

And none of that is to dredge up what you wrote earlier; you apologized for it and I think you were sincere and it's all good. I'm just trying to get you to see that going in open, instead of assuming that the other guy must be a hater or a fool, will yield more productive discussions going forward. You don't need to assume that anyone is ignorant or hateful; the ignoramuses and the haters will reveal themselves quickly enough, and then the rest of us can tune them out and go about the business of being NBA fans.

[Johnny Kilroy]

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Larry
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
LeBron
Duncan

[Pennebaker]

Read on Twitter

The great ones know what it's really all about

He only says that because he has 11 as a head coach. But here's the thing: Nobody thinks Phil Jackson is the greatest head coach of all-time and nobody thinks Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time. So.... no.

[andrewww]

I have him 12th and I'm neither ignorant not hateful.

who do you have above him in the 6-10 range?

My 6-10 is Bird, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem. I have Oscar at 11th, but some days, Kobe and Oscar tie for 11th, depending on whether I'm feeling bullish on Kobe or bearish on Oscar that day.

Hey Sammy, we've had plenty of good discussions even if we don't agree on where Kobe is ranked. I personally see anything lower than 11th as not being reasonable for a multitude of reasons:

-Everyone in the realgm top 11 has at least 1 MVP/FMVP, and were consistently great players.
-This notion by some that Kobe only had longevity and was a cult hero overrating his place in the game is absured IMO. Name me even one other player who could have done the "carry job" that Lebron gets routinely praised for in the weak east compared to what Kobe did in 06 and 07 in the west with Kwame/Smush/Mihm etc. We all know with Kobe its not just empty stats because he consistently wins when he has talent around him.
-Scoring binges: 4 straight 50 point games in 07 (of which 2 were 60 pt games all resulting in wins), 9 straight 40 pt games in 03, 81 pts in 06, 62 pts outscoring DAL by himself in 06 through just 3 quarters). No other player in history including MJ or Wilt could have done that.
-Arguably the GOAT skillset (he main weakness was shot selection but IMO that flaw while valid is greatly exaggerated in popular culture and especially here).
-His shot chart in the halfcourt is incredible (meaning that skillset makes elite defenses having a tougher time stopping him in the playoffs).
-5 titles of which he was option 1 or 1a on 4 of those.
-Was the consensus best player in the world from 06-08, and widely regarded as that in 09-10 although Lebron was gaining steam (For the record Lebron didn't develop a post game until after losing to DAL in the 2011 Finals so anyone saying 09 Lebron was better than Kobe I can't agree with, unless you ONLY look at stats). Should've had more 1 MVP just like Shaq, but knocking him for just 1 to me is valuing the media narrative award too much.
-Playing the leading scorer role and also playing the 1a role with elite man to man defense in his Frobe days.
-11 1st team all nba selections which is tied with Karl Malone for the NBA record for now until Lebron equals and/or surpasses that.

I think Oscar is a great player. But he wasn't even unquestionably better than his contemporary Jerry West in the 60s, and Oscar never led a team to the promised land as the best player. He was a walking triple double but does that surpass Kobe's individual play AND overall body of work? I think you're in the minority with this opinion but it doesn't mean you're wrong.

His resume alone is top 5 worthy, and I can make an argument for him over anyone but MJ. That doesn't mean I think he's number 2, but I can't see any reasonable ranking of him below 11th based on honest consistent evaluation of the history of this game.

[andrewww]

Read on Twitter

The great ones know what it's really all about

He only says that because he has 11 as a head coach. But here's the thing: Nobody thinks Phil Jackson is the greatest head coach of all-time and nobody thinks Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time. So.... no.

Plenty of people think Phil is the GOAT, and it's not just because of rings or the superstars he's coached. He is underrated in developing players that Pop gets praised for on the regular, and when he has the best team he rarely gets cute and throws away a championship. As great as Pop is, he gets cute sometimes and should have more than "just" the 5 rings he currently holds as head coach. Again, its a legit discussion but there is no consensus the way you put it.

[joeabraham]

LeBron
MJ
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Dirk
Kobe

[John Murdoch]

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