iggymcfrack wrote:CoP wrote:iggymcfrack wrote:
Unlike a lot of people, I don’t decide which side of the argument that I like and then try to find stats to fit it. I use the information out there to shape my opinions and then defend them on the solid ground they’re founded from. If there are 2 players in a similar role and one improves his team 6+ points more than the other I’m always gonna have him as the better player unless there’s some other major factor like of he’d just torn his ACL or something.
RPM shouldnt be ignored, but that is all you are using. When many, many other stats point to Kyrie being a fringe top 10 player (including BBR's own advanced plus-minus stat), it's unwise imo to use just one stat to dismiss them. Otherwise you end up being too reliant on a stat that had Robert Covington, Otto Porter and Tyus Jones in the top 15 of its ranking for last season. RPM, in my experience, more often has outliers that just don't pass the smell test. ESPN's QBR in the NFL is similar in this regard.
I can totally understand why someone would choose Jokic over Kyrie. But your posts leaning on RPM to discredit Kyrie show that you're way too reliant on one advanced stat that is a vast outlier compared to a large volume of traditional and advanced stats that see Kyrie much more favorably.
Every stat that has a way to include individual defense is low on Kyrie because he makes the defense much worse on every team he plays for. RPM thinks he’s super overrated, so does RAPM. I’m not aware of any advanced plus-minus system on B-Ref (that’s what you mean by BBR, right?) Youre not taking about BPM, are you? Plus-minus actually isn’t an input in BPM. They call it BPM because it’s a way to try to guess plus-minus from box scores. It doesn’t actually look at whether the defense plays way worse whenever they’re on the floor.
It’s not just the advanced stats that make me think Kyrie’s low impact either. It’s the fact that he didn’t elevate the Celtics at all. They actually played better after he got hurt. If he was such a huge impact player and all the advanced stats were wrong about him, the Celtics wouldn’t be the 2nd best team in the conference with or without him, and the Cavs wouldn’t be the conference champions and no threat to the Durant Warriors in the Finals with or without him.
If advanced stats are too much for you, how about simple NetRtg. Just how much your team outscores the other team by when you’re on the floor. Simple, right? The last 2 years, the Nuggets are better when Jokic is on the floor than the Cavs/Celtics are with Kyrie on the floor. That means that just being on the floor, Jokic is able to do more with a lottery team than Kyrie is with a team that can go to the conference finals without him. That’s insane. Same for Oladipo and last year’s Pacers who went 0-7 when he doesn’t play. Does that not sway you at all? That the Pacers and Nuggets were better with their superstars than the Celtics were with Kyrie even though the supporting casts are worlds apart.
The fact is that advanced stats such as WS/48, BPM and VORP rank Kyrie highly, in the top 10. RPM is the outlier by a significant amount, and is what deserves the scrutiny, particularly given its lack of transparency (ESPN has a similar lack of transparency in its NFL QBR stat, and has rightly taken criticism for it).I definitely agree that Kyrie is a negative on defense, but imo defensive prowess should be less of an emphasis for PGs compared to wings and bigs anyway.
Celtics did better with Kyrie than without. Don't remember the difference, but their win% was higher with him than without. So you are mistaken.
In regards to NetRtg, Kyrie's was higher last season than Jokic, the same the season before, and higher two seasons ago. So again, you are mistaken.
And besides, I already said I could understand why someone would take Jokic over Kyrie. What is ridiculous is the multiple claims in this thread that Kyrie shouldnt even be on the poll yet.
Dame and Jokic seem to be the only one who are better than Kyrie in advanced stats OUTSIDE RPM. Butler, George, Green, Gobert? Nope. Even Dipo, he only had a better VORP than Kyrie last season, but BPM,WS + WS/48, PER? Still Kyrie. Lowry? Better WS and VORP, but PER and BPM, and TOV% still goes to Kyrie. It's just funny how death by RPM is the way to go right now. 
