DeMar DeRozan is underrated all of a sudden

[The_Hater]

And ya, dont get it twisted, Lowry has always been the best player and the leader of the team.

90% of connected Raptor fans will tell you that Lowry was the best player on those teams where they shared the spotlight, every season he would win the vote in the Raptors forum with around 90% of the total votes between them.

It’s the people who aren’t Raptor fans or are just causal Raptor fans who wrongly thought it was Derozan, mainly because those fans gravitate towards the leading scorer and ignore everything that matters.

Realistically, DeRozan and Lowry are the same caliber of players. They both did great things for the Raptors, but they were both exposed when they matched up against big boys in the playoffs. Lowry was fortunate to play with a guy like Kawhi, who is an all time great, so he could just be a solid point guard and third option on offense behind him and Siakam. When DeMar was there, the burden was too big for him and Lowry. We'll see how Raptors do this year without Kawhi. They will struggle to make the playoffs I think.

That just means you fall into category B instead of category A from my post above, and Raptor fans will tell those in category B that you’re all dead wrong. It wasn’t even close.

[Gooner]

I don't even think he's a top 30 player. Dude might be top 40. Think stronger arguments can be made for top 50. He's just not a high impact player on either end of the floor. The San Antonio offense was better with him off the floor last season. The San Antonio defense was better with him off the floor last season. He ranked a stupid low 215th in RAPM last season.

They had one of the best benches in the league. People shouldn’t use on/off if they aren’t even going to try to understand context.

It's one thing if it was just a one off. But DD has been a net negative player almost every year of his career on (now) 2 different teams. The raps themselves have had a lot of roster turnover during his tenure and he was still almost always a net negative guy. He just doesnt have high impact play.

OK, we'll see the Raptors this year without him(and Kawhi), they should be better according to those stats.

[Gooner]

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

Yeah, you're wrong. Net rating for the 2014-2018 playoffs for both players:

Derozan
2014 - negative 6.6
2015 - negative 7.9
2016 - negative 4.8
2017 - negative 13.2
2018 - negative 19.9
(negative 23.1 this year with the Spurs, by far the worst on the team)

Lowry
2014 - +10.4
2015 - +15.5
2016 - +24.8
2017 - +8.9
2018 - +2.4

This is consistent across every season. Lowry clearly had more impact and it's not even close.

That doesn't mean anything. Kawhi was 50th in net rating last season, Danny Green was 15th. That stat doesn't tell me anything.

[Yogatti]

underrated? Dwyane Casey had to bench him in game 3 against the Cavaliers because he knew his job was on the line. That's how terrible he is in the playoffs

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

just some random video of him playing some garbage ass basketball in the playoffs like he does his entire career

[Chinook]

underrated? Dwyane Casey had to bench him in game 3 against the Cavaliers because he knew his job was on the line. That's how terrible he is in the playoffs

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

just some random video of him playing some garbage ass basketball in the playoffs like he does his entire career

I mean, there are many, many more videos of DeRozan playing well, even in the playoffs. I think a lot of folks in this thread would dismiss those are cherry-picking, but somehow these are accurate?

[Yogatti]

I mean, there are many, many more videos of DeRozan playing well, even in the playoffs. I think a lot of folks in this thread would dismiss those are cherry-picking, but somehow these are accurate?

"even in the playoffs"

I couldn't care less how well he plays in the regular season. And yes these are accurate. How does supposedly the best player on the team get benched in critical moment in a playoff series?

He's terrible on defense, can't shoot the 3, bricks a ton of mid-range shots, easily rattled, mentally weak. There's nothing underrated about his game. His a career net negative. There's a reason why Masai couldn't wait to get rid of him.

And I heard he's on the chopping block with the Spurs as well.

[Chinook]

The problem in the NBA is simple: guys who are OK at their role are not exactly more valuable than guys who excel in a lesser role if you want a championship team. An excellent 3 & D guy is more valuable than a guy who can create his own shot and shoulder high USG at mediocre efficiency.

No, he's not. That's really the point people keep glossing over. An excellent 3-and-D guy is more valuable ... to a team that already has stars. By themselves, they don't win anything. That's why Robert Covington has missed the playoffs four times in the five seasons where he was a starter (and yes, Minny wasn't on a playoff pace when he was healthy last year). DeMar DeRozan has made the playoffs the last six years in a row. High-impact, "worth Jimmy Butler" Josh Richardson missed the playoffs (yes again, even just counting his "healthy" games, while Jimmy has made it six of the eight seasons he's been a starter. LaMarcus Aldridge hasn't missed the playoffs since 2013 despite having pretty poor results in a lot of advanced stats.

Yes, I know "wins are a team stat". That's my point. You can't isolate a role-player and compare him to a star, even with the caveat of trying to control for the role difference. The stats need to give the innate boost to high-usage players to correctly reflect their impact on the game beyond just efficiency or on-off numbers. Sure, if you have a choice of a Kawhi or a Durant, you go with them and don't even think about DeRozan. But if you had to pick one guy to be the best player on your team, you pick DeMar over the elite role-players every time. That to me suggests that he's more valuable than they are.

[Senbonzakura]

He's not underrated he's just unable to play as well as he does during the regular season during the playoffs when the defense gets better. He's always been a good regular season player.

Weird time to say this considering last year was the best playoff performance of his career, and his playoff numbers were arguably better than his regular season numbers.

[Sulico]

Kyle Lowry was FAR and away the better player.

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

It's not man. Lots of people on the Raps board always thought Lowry was the best player on the team since he got the starting position. We only made a serious run for the play-offs when Lowry was allowed to lead the team.

Derozan is a top 20-30 player and in the top 10 at his position (I put Jimmy, Klay, CJ, Harden, Beal, Oladipo over him). One of the best midrange scorers in the league and he was actually a pretty good distributor last year. He's going to be a dope secondary ball handler for the Spurs this year, probably the best one they've had since prime Manu.

Sent from my ASUS_X00HD using RealGM mobile app

It's like saying that Ivica Zubac is the best 7 foot 1 center on Lakers since Shaq.
While maybe true, it's still feels insulting to put Zubac in the same conversation as Shaq or Derozan in the same conversation as Manu.

[magicman1978]

That's revisionist history. They were the same caliber of player, Lowry was fortunate that he got Kawhi Leonard, and that Siakam emerged as a borderline all star, so he was really a third option, and all he had to do was be a point guard.

Yeah, you're wrong. Net rating for the 2014-2018 playoffs for both players:

Derozan
2014 - negative 6.6
2015 - negative 7.9
2016 - negative 4.8
2017 - negative 13.2
2018 - negative 19.9
(negative 23.1 this year with the Spurs, by far the worst on the team)

Lowry
2014 - +10.4
2015 - +15.5
2016 - +24.8
2017 - +8.9
2018 - +2.4

This is consistent across every season. Lowry clearly had more impact and it's not even close.

That doesn't mean anything. Kawhi was 50th in net rating last season, Danny Green was 15th. That stat doesn't tell me anything.

It's not their relative ranking that's the point. It's the fact that one guy is a huge net negative each year in the playoffs, while the other guy was a huge positive on the same team. It's about the data being consistent each year. Show me an example of an equal player being a negative each year, while his equal is a positive each year on the same team. Show me an example of a team that consistently plays significantly better with their best or second best player off the court.

The Raptors actually had a better win% with Kawhi on the bench in the regular season, so it's not surprising a good 3&D player like Green had a better net rtg in the regular season. That didn't hold in the playoffs.

[magicman1978]

He's not underrated he's just unable to play as well as he does during the regular season during the playoffs when the defense gets better. He's always been a good regular season player.

Weird time to say this considering last year was the best playoff performance of his career, and his playoff numbers were arguably better than his regular season numbers.

He may have put up decent numbers, but the team was minus 33 with him on the court and plus 20 with him off. That's the worse on the team and is consistently true every year for him.

[RIP Kobe]

I understand the attack against demar for not playing well in the playoffs but I wouldn’t put all the blame on him for that.

It’s up to the coach to fix the offence and make a proper game plan especially when teams were creating a defence to stop demar (not Lowry) and were successful because of our garbage coach.

He goes to the spurs and popovich knows what basketball is and all of a sudden demar plays decent in the playoffs..

[Jabroni Lames]

I understand the attack against demar for not playing well in the playoffs but I wouldn’t put all the blame on him for that.

It’s up to the coach to fix the offence and make a proper game plan especially when teams were creating a defence to stop demar (not Lowry) and were successful because of our garbage coach.

He goes to the spurs and popovich knows what basketball is and all of a sudden demar plays decent in the playoffs..

DeRozan is a shooting guard who can't shoot 3's. There's no offensive game-plan a coach can come up with to fix that. And speaking of defense, DeRozan was a sieve guarding the perimeter.

[YogurtProducer]

It's not revisionist history, it's you not knowing what you're talking about. You literally cited PPGZZZZZ as your argument two posts prior. It's like saying Blake Griffin was a similar caliber player as Chris Paul because Blake Griffin scored more! He wasn't, because that's not how it works.

Derozan can go out and get you a bucket when you need one. That's his utility to the team, but on the whole, his numbers have consistently rung hollow throughout his career. Lowry has always been the engine that made Toronto go, and that remained true until the playoffs when Kawhi took over.

Can Demar go and get you a bucket? He’s a very average efficiency player. I’d trust Lowrys playmaking any day to get an easy layup from a big or an open 3 over a Demar fade away long 2 clank

You guys are bigging up Lowry so much now after he had the fortune to play with Kawhi. I'm not taking anything away from him, but he is not some superstar all of a sudden. He was a third option last season. We'll see the Raptors now without both Kawhi and DeMar. They won't be as good as they were when Demar was here, I guarantee you that, and that myth about Raptors playing better with him on the bench will be debunked.

Raptors fans always knew Lowry was better. Just because you ignored us doesn’t mean we did.

Hot take saying the raptors with an older Lowry Gasol and Ibakamight be worse

[RIP Kobe]

I understand the attack against demar for not playing well in the playoffs but I wouldn’t put all the blame on him for that.

It’s up to the coach to fix the offence and make a proper game plan especially when teams were creating a defence to stop demar (not Lowry) and were successful because of our garbage coach.

He goes to the spurs and popovich knows what basketball is and all of a sudden demar plays decent in the playoffs..

DeRozan is a shooting guard who can't shoot 3's. There's no offensive game-plan a coach can come up with to fix that. And speaking of defense, DeRozan was a sieve guarding the perimeter.

sure there is.. you create opportunities for the player to score effectively where he is comfortable. people are just quick to attack demar because it's easy (and they don't understand basketball and just post "advanced" stats that fit their narrative)

what do you think popovich did in the playoffs last season? derozan is a great player but he needs to play with a coach that knows what he's doing.

[dhsilv2]

Klay Thompson was around 170th place in RPM, and he is a prototypical 3 and D player. Khris Middleton and Malcolm Brogdon were outside of top 50, behind George Hill and Bledsoe. Context matters, as you say, so these raw stats don't mean anything, they just serve as a distraction and food for bias.

None of those players are 3 and D players....I am not sure how anyone can think Eric Bledsoe and Danny Green have the same role on a team.

I was comparing him to Middleton and Brogdon, not Bledsoe. They are 3 and D players.

Those aren't 3 and D players. neither is Klay...

[KrazyP]

The problem in the NBA is simple: guys who are OK at their role are not exactly more valuable than guys who excel in a lesser role if you want a championship team. An excellent 3 & D guy is more valuable than a guy who can create his own shot and shoulder high USG at mediocre efficiency.

No, he's not. That's really the point people keep glossing over. An excellent 3-and-D guy is more valuable ... to a team that already has stars. By themselves, they don't win anything. That's why Robert Covington has missed the playoffs four times in the five seasons where he was a starter (and yes, Minny wasn't on a playoff pace when he was healthy last year). DeMar DeRozan has made the playoffs the last six years in a row. High-impact, "worth Jimmy Butler" Josh Richardson missed the playoffs (yes again, even just counting his "healthy" games, while Jimmy has made it six of the eight seasons he's been a starter. LaMarcus Aldridge hasn't missed the playoffs since 2013 despite having pretty poor results in a lot of advanced stats.

Yes, I know "wins are a team stat". That's my point. You can't isolate a role-player and compare him to a star, even with the caveat of trying to control for the role difference. The stats need to give the innate boost to high-usage players to correctly reflect their impact on the game beyond just efficiency or on-off numbers. Sure, if you have a choice of a Kawhi or a Durant, you go with them and don't even think about DeRozan. But if you had to pick one guy to be the best player on your team, you pick DeMar over the elite role-players every time. That to me suggests that he's more valuable than they are.

Excellent post which highlights the disconnect here. Some people here get blinded by advanced stats and fail to take them into the context of role, team structure, coaching, system, etc. It reminds me of technical stock traders who look for cups, humps and lumps in the charts but completely ignore company fundamentals.

The Raptor team that made the ECF and took the Lebron/Irving/Cavs to 6 games had guys like Bismack Biyombo, Demarre Carroll, and Patrick Patterson starting for them. Take Demar's scoring off that team and replace him with a 3&D roleplayer and that team doesnt get out of the 1st round.

[dhsilv2]

I understand the attack against demar for not playing well in the playoffs but I wouldn’t put all the blame on him for that.

It’s up to the coach to fix the offence and make a proper game plan especially when teams were creating a defence to stop demar (not Lowry) and were successful because of our garbage coach.

He goes to the spurs and popovich knows what basketball is and all of a sudden demar plays decent in the playoffs..

DeRozan is a shooting guard who can't shoot 3's. There's no offensive game-plan a coach can come up with to fix that. And speaking of defense, DeRozan was a sieve guarding the perimeter.

sure there is.. you create opportunities for the player to score effectively where he is comfortable. people are just quick to attack demar because it's easy (and they don't understand basketball and just post "advanced" stats that fit their narrative)

what do you think popovich did in the playoffs last season? derozan is a great player but he needs to play with a coach that knows what he's doing.

Pop took his team that had a pretty good offensive rating of 112.9 (which was even better the second half of the year, like top 5 offense good) and scored at at 113.0 against a nuggets team that gave up 108.9 per 100 on the season. I guess that's good?

[dhsilv2]

Can Demar go and get you a bucket? He’s a very average efficiency player. I’d trust Lowrys playmaking any day to get an easy layup from a big or an open 3 over a Demar fade away long 2 clank

You guys are bigging up Lowry so much now after he had the fortune to play with Kawhi. I'm not taking anything away from him, but he is not some superstar all of a sudden. He was a third option last season. We'll see the Raptors now without both Kawhi and DeMar. They won't be as good as they were when Demar was here, I guarantee you that, and that myth about Raptors playing better with him on the bench will be debunked.

Raptors fans always knew Lowry was better. Just because you ignored us doesn’t mean we did.

Hot take saying the raptors with an older Lowry Gasol and Ibakamight be worse

Pretty much all serious basketball fans knew that. Only people who think Skip Bayless makes good points thought otherwise.

[DreamTeam09]

You guys are bigging up Lowry so much now after he had the fortune to play with Kawhi. I'm not taking anything away from him, but he is not some superstar all of a sudden. He was a third option last season. We'll see the Raptors now without both Kawhi and DeMar. They won't be as good as they were when Demar was here, I guarantee you that, and that myth about Raptors playing better with him on the bench will be debunked.

Raptors fans always knew Lowry was better. Just because you ignored us doesn’t mean we did.

Hot take saying the raptors with an older Lowry Gasol and Ibakamight be worse

Pretty much all serious basketball fans knew that. Only people who think Skip Bayless makes good points thought otherwise.

I disagree, Lowry wasn't always better than DeMar. Lowry had his fair share of totally **** playoff performances as well, including this past year without DeMar and with Kawhi.

But I'm not really here to argue Lowry vs DeMar anymore

PS I'm a basketball fan and not much of a skip Bayless fan