If Lebron is the GOAT then how did he allow younger star players to catch him in rings already in his era?

[NeutralObserver]

You'll be hard-pressed to find a more a toxic fanbase in sports at the moment.

I actually could not have found one faster.

The funny thing is, Lebron was in the greatest danger of missing the Finals back when Bosh and Wade were still playing near peak levels in 2012. And he made it as they declined, and he won the 2015 conference without Love and basically without Kyrie against Atlanta, and he cruised through 2016 and ran through 2017 and won 2018 even as the team fell apart around him. And then he goes on a lottery team which had the dumbest possible roster construction, misses a quarter of the season with injury, and "Woah, crazy, Lebron missed the playoffs!"

60 of the games are literally the same regardless of east or west; no rational person believes those twenty-two games of difference were the reason Lebron was a perpetual top two seed (until 2018) in the East rather than a borderline playoff team in the West.

I am not sure why I am even responding to this; it is like every year Kobe stans double down harder in their delusions. Really sad to see.

Ehh. Some people eat 6 double cheeseburgers to get to 2500 calories while some people have a more balanced meal to reach their daily caloric maintenance.

Going thru Roy Hibbert's Pacers, Brandon Jennings' Bucks, and the other scrubs in that conference is like hitting the Mickey Ds drivethru you entire life. Calories in calories out.

Tim Duncan, Curry, KD, Kobe, and Kawhi prefer prefer healthier, gourmet dishes over their career and thus have better finals records WHILE PLAYING in a more competitive conference. No empty calories.

LeBron's first year in the Western Conference was like him eating his first vegetable and having a stomach ache

I suspect that he'll grow accustomed to the steady diet of competition out West.

[LipSkinMatter]

You'll be hard-pressed to find a more a toxic fanbase in sports at the moment.

I actually could not have found one faster.

The funny thing is, Lebron was in the greatest danger of missing the Finals back when Bosh and Wade were still playing near peak levels in 2012. And he made it as they declined, and he won the 2015 conference without Love and basically without Kyrie against Atlanta, and he cruised through 2016 and ran through 2017 and won 2018 even as the team fell apart around him. And then he goes on a lottery team which had the dumbest possible roster construction, misses a quarter of the season with injury, and "Woah, crazy, Lebron missed the playoffs!"

60 of the games are literally the same regardless of east or west; no rational person believes those twenty-two games of difference were the reason Lebron was a perpetual top two seed (until 2018) in the East rather than a borderline playoff team in the West.

I am not sure why I am even responding to this; it is like every year Kobe stans double down harder in their delusions. Really sad to see.

Ehh. Some people eat 6 double cheeseburgers to get to 2500 calories while some people have a more balanced meal to reach their daily caloric maintenance.

Going thru Roy Hibbert's Pacers, Brandon Jennings' Bucks, and the other scrubs in that conference is like hitting the Mickey Ds drivethru you entire life. Calories in calories out.

Tim Duncan, Curry, KD, Kobe, and Kawhi prefer prefer healthier, gourmet dishes over their career and thus have better finals records WHILE PLAYING in a more competitive conference. No empty calories.

LeBron's first year in the Western Conference was like him eating his first vegetable and having a stomach ache

I suspect that he'll grow accustomed to the steady diet of competition out West.

Absolutely horrific analogies but whatever it takes to take away from LeBron's greatness.

[NeutralObserver]

Think about this for a second - Remember the 2014 Finals?

Kawhi and company beat the STUFFIN outta LeBron, Bosh, and Wade AFTER being taken to 7 games by the geriatric Mavericks in the 1st round. Lol. Largest beatdown at the time in NBA finals history.

How did the Spurs get rewarded? Matched up with the Clippers next year and they were eliminated in the first round, game 7 by that CP3 bank shot.

What was LeBron doing? Created ANOTHER superteam and going up against the Isaiah Thomas led Celtics in the first round. Lol.

If you don't think LeBron benefited from EXTREME conference disparity and superteams out East, youre less than disingenuous at this point.

This is why I say he shouldn't be compared to the players who've had to grind their entire careers out West...especially without even making the playoffs.

[NeutralObserver]

I actually could not have found one faster.

The funny thing is, Lebron was in the greatest danger of missing the Finals back when Bosh and Wade were still playing near peak levels in 2012. And he made it as they declined, and he won the 2015 conference without Love and basically without Kyrie against Atlanta, and he cruised through 2016 and ran through 2017 and won 2018 even as the team fell apart around him. And then he goes on a lottery team which had the dumbest possible roster construction, misses a quarter of the season with injury, and "Woah, crazy, Lebron missed the playoffs!"

60 of the games are literally the same regardless of east or west; no rational person believes those twenty-two games of difference were the reason Lebron was a perpetual top two seed (until 2018) in the East rather than a borderline playoff team in the West.

I am not sure why I am even responding to this; it is like every year Kobe stans double down harder in their delusions. Really sad to see.

Ehh. Some people eat 6 double cheeseburgers to get to 2500 calories while some people have a more balanced meal to reach their daily caloric maintenance.

Going thru Roy Hibbert's Pacers, Brandon Jennings' Bucks, and the other scrubs in that conference is like hitting the Mickey Ds drivethru you entire life. Calories in calories out.

Tim Duncan, Curry, KD, Kobe, and Kawhi prefer prefer healthier, gourmet dishes over their career and thus have better finals records WHILE PLAYING in a more competitive conference. No empty calories.

LeBron's first year in the Western Conference was like him eating his first vegetable and having a stomach ache

I suspect that he'll grow accustomed to the steady diet of competition out West.

Absolutely horrific analogies but whatever it takes to take away from LeBron's greatness.

He's great for sure. Easily top 10. But I'm gonna need him to actually make the playoffs...let alone win a series out West.

He legit tried last year rather you wanna admit it or not. Lol.

[koningcosmo]

Think about this for a second - Remember the 2014 Finals?

Kawhi and company beat the STUFFIN outta LeBron, Bosh, and Wade AFTER being taken to 7 games by the geriatric Mavericks in the 1st round. Lol. Largest beatdown at the time in NBA finals history.

How did the Spurs get rewarded? Matched up with the Clippers next year and they were eliminated in the first round, game 7 by that CP3 bank shot.

What was LeBron doing? Created ANOTHER superteam and going up against the Isaiah Thomas led Celtics in the first round. Lol.

If you don't think LeBron benefited from EXTREME conference disparity and superteams out East, youre less than disingenuous at this point.

This is why I say he shouldn't be compared to the players who've had to grind their entire careers out West...especially without even making the playoffs.

i know a player people call the GOAT he played for the bulls i guess. he has been in the eastern conference his whole carreer but now i realise he had a cake walk being in the east playing scrubs so he cant be the GOAT.

[liamliam1234]

Think about this for a second - Remember the 2014 Finals?

Kawhi and company beat the STUFFIN outta LeBron, Bosh, and Wade AFTER being taken to 7 games by the geriatric Mavericks in the 1st round. Lol. Largest beatdown at the time in NBA finals history.

How did the Spurs get rewarded? Matched up with the Clippers next year and they were eliminated in the first round, game 7 by that CP3 bank shot.

What was LeBron doing? Created ANOTHER superteam and going up against the Isaiah Thomas led Celtics in the first round. Lol.

If you don't think LeBron benefited from EXTREME conference disparity and superteams out East, youre less than disingenuous at this point.

This is why I say he shouldn't be compared to the players who've had to grind their entire careers out West...especially without even making the playoffs.

I guess the 8-seed Mavericks were actually the second-best team in the league, seeing as they were the only ones to take the 2014 Spurs to seven games.

And I guess the 2008 Lakers were worse than the 2008 Hawks (and 2008 Cavaliers) because they lost to the Celtics in six games, whereas those other teams lost in seven games.

It is almost as if some teams round into form the later they go. Incredible.

[koningcosmo]

Yeah, because teams have nothing to do with winning chips.

Keep it up.

LeBron has always stacked the deck ever since Miami, apart of the first year with the Lakers. So indeed.

He is the initiator of the super team era, he inspired KD to go to Golden State. It's funny how LeBron stans complain about other teams being "too strong" now. How can someone be the GOAT when he has those types of excuses made for him.

so show time lakers, Birds celtics, MJ's bulls, Duncan ginobli parker spurs, allen KG pierce rondo celtics and a whole lot of other teams who i did not even mention werent superteams??? Teams like kobe shaw lakers went 15-1 in the playoffs destroying everyone because they werent a super team just a regular good team. The whole reason for lebron to go to miami was the celtics with Allen KG pierce and Rondo. but hey Lebron started everything as long as we can hate on him.

if you had to gamble all your money in a playoff series of lebrons miami or cleveland "super team" VS MJ's bulls who people claim wasnt a superteam. would you pick lebrons superteams??

[The4thHorseman]

Think about this for a second - Remember the 2014 Finals?

Kawhi and company beat the STUFFIN outta LeBron, Bosh, and Wade AFTER being taken to 7 games by the geriatric Mavericks in the 1st round. Lol. Largest beatdown at the time in NBA finals history.

How did the Spurs get rewarded? Matched up with the Clippers next year and they were eliminated in the first round, game 7 by that CP3 bank shot.

What was LeBron doing? Created ANOTHER superteam and going up against the Isaiah Thomas led Celtics in the first round. Lol.

If you don't think LeBron benefited from EXTREME conference disparity and superteams out East, youre less than disingenuous at this point.

This is why I say he shouldn't be compared to the players who've had to grind their entire careers out West...especially without even making the playoffs.

Why do you think it's better to lose in the first round (or not even make the playoffs) than it is to play for a ring?

[Ainosterhaspie]

2019 Warriors lose four times on their way to the finals, Raptors lose six times.

2018 Warriors lose 5 times on their way to the finals, Cavaliers lose six times on their way to the finals.

2017 Warriors do not lose a single game before the finals, Cavaliers lose one game before the finals.

2016 Warriors lose five games on the way to the finals, Cavaliers lose two games.

2015 Warriors lose three games on the way to the finals, Cavaliers lose two games on the way to the finals.

2014 Spurs lose six games on the way to the finals, Heat lose three games on the way to the finals.

2013 Spurs lose two games on the way to the finals, Heat lose 4 games on the way to the finals.

2012 Thunder lose three games on the way to the finals, Heat lose six games on the way to the finals.

2011 Mavericks lose three games on the way to the finals, Heat lose three games on the way to the finals.

2010 Lakers lose four games on the way to the finals, Celtics lose five games on the way to the finals.

In the last 10 years the east champions have had more losses on their way to the finals then the West champions six times. The West champions have had more losses on their way to the finals three times. Getting through the East is not the cake walk it is often described to be.

In the last 5 years the Warriors have a record of 60-17 in their Conference playoffs, a 78% win percentage equivalent to winning 63 games over the course of an 82 game season. Their record against the East during that time is 17-11, a 61% win percentage equivalent to a 50 win pace over the course of an 82 game season. 2018 is the only year where the East champion fared worse against the Warriors than the Warriors' WCF competitor. In 2016, 2017 and 2019, the East champion did better against the Warriors than any Western team.

The West is full of pretender contenders. The East has had fewer of those, but the idea that the West is a brutal slog and the East is a stroll through the daisies is not accurate.

[guy1]

How is this in any way shape or form an argument? Magic won his first ring when he was 20, MJ when he was 28 when he won his first ring when Magic had already won 5. This really means nothing.

Magic only won 3 while Jordan was playing. Bird only won 1. Both Duncan and Steph have won just as much as Lebron during Lebron’s career and KD and Kawhi could potentially get there as well. Maybe it’s nothing, but it is interesting when we talk about their dominance and how much they “owned” the era.

[RRR3]

Think about this for a second - Remember the 2014 Finals?

Kawhi and company beat the STUFFIN outta LeBron, Bosh, and Wade AFTER being taken to 7 games by the geriatric Mavericks in the 1st round. Lol. Largest beatdown at the time in NBA finals history.

How did the Spurs get rewarded? Matched up with the Clippers next year and they were eliminated in the first round, game 7 by that CP3 bank shot.

What was LeBron doing? Created ANOTHER superteam and going up against the Isaiah Thomas led Celtics in the first round. Lol.

If you don't think LeBron benefited from EXTREME conference disparity and superteams out East, youre less than disingenuous at this point.

This is why I say he shouldn't be compared to the players who've had to grind their entire careers out West...especially without even making the playoffs.

I guess the 8-seed Mavericks were actually the second-best team in the league, seeing as they were the only ones to take the 2014 Spurs to seven games.

And I guess the 2008 Lakers were worse than the 2008 Hawks (and 2008 Cavaliers) because they lost to the Celtics in six games, whereas those other teams lost in seven games.

It is almost as if some teams round into form the later they go. Incredible.

You’re arguing with an infamous ISH troll (34-24 footwork). He tries to sound smart but dude literally doesn't know what a first option is (he claims Pau was the first option on the Lakers from 08-11 and predicted Marcus Morris would be the first option on the 17 Celtics)

[Pg81]

How is this in any way shape or form an argument? Magic won his first ring when he was 20, MJ when he was 28 when he won his first ring when Magic had already won 5. This really means nothing.

Magic only won 3 while Jordan was playing. Bird only won 1. Both Duncan and Steph have won just as much as Lebron during Lebron’s career and KD and Kawhi could potentially get there as well. Maybe it’s nothing, but it is interesting when we talk about their dominance and how much they “owned” the era.

Winning is predominantly dependent on the talent surrounding you, with very few exceptions. Curry from the beginning had more talent around him than LeBron had until 2011, his 8th year. Curry would have not been able to carry that trash roster farther than first round, and that is a generous estimation, more likely he would have missed the playoffs every damn year. Summa summarum, winning titles has little to do with age and it does not show how dominant you are.

[guy1]

How is this in any way shape or form an argument? Magic won his first ring when he was 20, MJ when he was 28 when he won his first ring when Magic had already won 5. This really means nothing.

Magic only won 3 while Jordan was playing. Bird only won 1. Both Duncan and Steph have won just as much as Lebron during Lebron’s career and KD and Kawhi could potentially get there as well. Maybe it’s nothing, but it is interesting when we talk about their dominance and how much they “owned” the era.

Winning is predominantly dependent on the talent surrounding you, with very few exceptions. Curry from the beginning had more talent around him than LeBron had until 2011, his 8th year. Curry would have not been able to carry that trash roster farther than first round, and that is a generous estimation, more likely he would have missed the playoffs every damn year. Summa summarum, winning titles has little to do with age and it does not show how dominant you are.

The best players ever usually win multiple championships and mostly all star players get the opportunity to have enough talent around them to win. Part of it has to do with how easy they are to build around.

Steph Curry’s best teammates his first few years were Monta Ellis and David Lee. Let’s not act he was playing on some juggernaut from the beginning. Then he got Klay and Draymond who were nobodies when they started out and then developed while playing with Steph who helped them in their development.

Lebron had a great team from 2011 to 2017 (minus 2015). Furthermore, he’s basically picked his teammates and ushered in the era of players teaming up (so he’s kinda responsible for Durant going to the Warriors) and been his own worst enemy in a lot of ways (his noncommittal nature basically being the reason Kyrie wanted out). Can we stop with the excuses that he couldn’t have won more? ****, if he didnt have basically have the biggest choke ever, the observation I laid out wouldn’t exist.

[XxIronChainzxX]

How is this in any way shape or form an argument? Magic won his first ring when he was 20, MJ when he was 28 when he won his first ring when Magic had already won 5. This really means nothing.

Magic only won 3 while Jordan was playing. Bird only won 1. Both Duncan and Steph have won just as much as Lebron during Lebron’s career and KD and Kawhi could potentially get there as well. Maybe it’s nothing, but it is interesting when we talk about their dominance and how much they “owned” the era.

Magic basically retired by the time Jordan had a contender around him. Bird was broken and our of the league before then. Duncan won all but 1 of his titles before LeBron hit his prime, and KD + Curry had to team up to win more than 1. Curry's solo came when LeBron was playing with superstars like Delly and Shumpert, and Kawhi was a role player the first time he won one.

LeBron's not MJ. He's not as good. He's had great teams for less than MJ did (comparing Love/Irving to Pippen is a lol for us all), but it's not hard to see how he's not on that level anyway.

[DimesandKnicks]

This is why Lebron will never be in the same tier as Kobe

This is true at least. LeBron will never be demoted to Kobe's tier.

Lebron took too many losses in the Finals to be considered on the same level as Kobe. If Lebron wins one more ring then yea maybe we can consider him better than Kobe or on the same level

your standard for what makes a player the goat is dumb as ****

[DimesandKnicks]

Kobe has zero argument for best player on his team for 3 of his championships, so stop right there.

And even if some players of Lebron have as many rings as he does, so what? The next tie breaker would be what? Probably either how many Finals overall you've lead your team to, or MVP Awards.
So who wins if we look at those stats next?

What a weak argument. LBJ wasn't best player for his first ring, either. He also needed TWO other stars to win 3 (Wade+Bosh in Miami, Love & Irving in Clevelad). Kobe only had 1 certified star for all 5 of his rings.

Shaq = 2 stars and Bynum and Gasol are two stars. Stop mentioning Kobe in the same breathe as Lebron. They are on different tiers.

[G35]

2019 Warriors lose four times on their way to the finals, Raptors lose six times.

2018 Warriors lose 5 times on their way to the finals, Cavaliers lose six times on their way to the finals.

2017 Warriors do not lose a single game before the finals, Cavaliers lose one game before the finals.

2016 Warriors lose five games on the way to the finals, Cavaliers lose two games.

2015 Warriors lose three games on the way to the finals, Cavaliers lose two games on the way to the finals.

2014 Spurs lose six games on the way to the finals, Heat lose three games on the way to the finals.

2013 Spurs lose two games on the way to the finals, Heat lose 4 games on the way to the finals.

2012 Thunder lose three games on the way to the finals, Heat lose six games on the way to the finals.

2011 Mavericks lose three games on the way to the finals, Heat lose three games on the way to the finals.

2010 Lakers lose four games on the way to the finals, Celtics lose five games on the way to the finals.

In the last 10 years the east champions have had more losses on their way to the finals then the West champions six times. The West champions have had more losses on their way to the finals three times. Getting through the East is not the cake walk it is often described to be.

In the last 5 years the Warriors have a record of 60-17 in their Conference playoffs, a 78% win percentage equivalent to winning 63 games over the course of an 82 game season. Their record against the East during that time is 17-11, a 61% win percentage equivalent to a 50 win pace over the course of an 82 game season. 2018 is the only year where the East champion fared worse against the Warriors than the Warriors' WCF competitor. In 2016, 2017 and 2019, the East champion did better against the Warriors than any Western team.

The West is full of pretender contenders. The East has had fewer of those, but the idea that the West is a brutal slog and the East is a stroll through the daisies is not accurate.

How many other teams in the East made it to the finals that were not a Lebron superteam.

From your list, from the West we have:

2010 - Kobe/Gasol
2011 - Dirk/Kidd/Terry
2012 - KD/WB/Harden
2013 - Duncan/Manu/Parker
2014 - Duncan/Manu/Parker
2015 - 2019 Curry/Klay/Dray

Its funny but isn't this the "representation and diversity" is better era?

Where was the diversity in the East.......

[guy1]

How is this in any way shape or form an argument? Magic won his first ring when he was 20, MJ when he was 28 when he won his first ring when Magic had already won 5. This really means nothing.

Magic only won 3 while Jordan was playing. Bird only won 1. Both Duncan and Steph have won just as much as Lebron during Lebron’s career and KD and Kawhi could potentially get there as well. Maybe it’s nothing, but it is interesting when we talk about their dominance and how much they “owned” the era.

Magic basically retired by the time Jordan had a contender around him. Bird was broken and our of the league before then. Duncan won all but 1 of his titles before LeBron hit his prime, and KD + Curry had to team up to win more than 1. Curry's solo came when LeBron was playing with superstars like Delly and Shumpert, and Kawhi was a role player the first time he won one.

LeBron's not MJ. He's not as good. He's had great teams for less than MJ did (comparing Love/Irving to Pippen is a lol for us all), but it's not hard to see how he's not on that level anyway.

Magic was not retired. He literally faced Jordan in the finals and lost.

Comparing Love+Kyrie to just Pippen is an lol???

Duncan beat him twice. Curry beat him three times. My point is Lebron didn’t “own” his era despite having plenty of great teams to the extent other greats have like Jordan and Magic for example cause no one in their era won just as much as them during that period.

[The4thHorseman]

Magic only won 3 while Jordan was playing. Bird only won 1. Both Duncan and Steph have won just as much as Lebron during Lebron’s career and KD and Kawhi could potentially get there as well. Maybe it’s nothing, but it is interesting when we talk about their dominance and how much they “owned” the era.

Winning is predominantly dependent on the talent surrounding you, with very few exceptions. Curry from the beginning had more talent around him than LeBron had until 2011, his 8th year. Curry would have not been able to carry that trash roster farther than first round, and that is a generous estimation, more likely he would have missed the playoffs every damn year. Summa summarum, winning titles has little to do with age and it does not show how dominant you are.

The best players ever usually win multiple championships and mostly all star players get the opportunity to have enough talent around them to win. Part of it has to do with how easy they are to build around.

Steph Curry’s best teammates his first few years were Monta Ellis and David Lee. Let’s not act he was playing on some juggernaut from the beginning. Then he got Klay and Draymond who were nobodies when they started out and then developed while playing with Steph who helped them in their development.

Lebron had a great team from 2011 to 2017 (minus 2015). Furthermore, he’s basically picked his teammates and ushered in the era of players teaming up (so he’s kinda responsible for Durant going to the Warriors) and been his own worst enemy in a lot of ways (his noncommittal nature basically being the reason Kyrie wanted out). Can we stop with the excuses that he couldn’t have won more? ****, if he didnt have basically have the biggest choke ever, the observation I laid out wouldn’t exist.

Exactly how did Curry help Klay become All-NBA in his 4th season and Draymond make All-NBA on both sides of the floor team his 4th season???

Kyrie signed a 5yr deal before LeBron even committed back to the Cavs. Not sure Kyrie even knew James was coming back so why would Kyrie care since he signed on for the long haul regardless if James was coming back or not? Him wanting out of his contract had nothing to do with James not being committed through the 2020 season. I say it had to do more with his buddy Kobe in his ear telling him to get away from LeBron so he could be the man on his own team, but that's just specfulation on my part. Basically the same thing tyou did, speculate.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Magic only won 3 while Jordan was playing. Bird only won 1. Both Duncan and Steph have won just as much as Lebron during Lebron’s career and KD and Kawhi could potentially get there as well. Maybe it’s nothing, but it is interesting when we talk about their dominance and how much they “owned” the era.

Magic basically retired by the time Jordan had a contender around him. Bird was broken and our of the league before then. Duncan won all but 1 of his titles before LeBron hit his prime, and KD + Curry had to team up to win more than 1. Curry's solo came when LeBron was playing with superstars like Delly and Shumpert, and Kawhi was a role player the first time he won one.

LeBron's not MJ. He's not as good. He's had great teams for less than MJ did (comparing Love/Irving to Pippen is a lol for us all), but it's not hard to see how he's not on that level anyway.

Magic was not retired. He literally faced Jordan in the finals and lost.

Comparing Love+Kyrie to just Pippen is an lol???

Duncan beat him twice. Curry beat him three times. My point is Lebron didn’t “own” his era despite having plenty of great teams to the extent other greats have like Jordan and Magic for example cause no one in their era won just as much as them during that period.

Magic retired the year after the '91 Finals. That's not prime Magic by any stretch.

Are you actually suggesting Love + Kyrie equal Pippen? Then, yes, LOL.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. He beat LeBron + trash once, lost once, and then teamed up with KD. Duncan best a young LeBron once, then was an old man by the time they faces each other again. You might as well say Patrick McCaw best LeBron three times by that standard.

Counting that as "beating" LeBron is silly. It's like counting that year MJ lost in the second round to Shaq as a blemish.