Kemba Walker or Kyle Lowry

[docholliday99]

Lowry doesnt elevate his game in the playoffs more times than NOT.

Only 2 good playoff runs

Kemba has 1 good, 1 bad..

Wow, this is not true in the slightest. Lowry has been the most clutch player in the NBA playoffs the last 5 years. I'm not going to penalise Lowry for the failure of the players around him.

[YogurtProducer]

Lowry is an actual point guard as well..? He has one of the highest assist totals over the past few seasons and was leading the league for a large chunk of last year before Siakam really emerged and took some usage away

I think you're misreading my point. I'm saying that giving Walker a pass because he "has too many weapons" doesn't make sense because Lowry has also played and succeeded with other talented players over the years. Not an anti-Lowry take the exact opposite.

I'm not giving Kemba a pass, Lowry is the better player of the 2 because of his defence. I am saying that Kemba will probably not have stats better than Lowry going forward because of playing with 3 other creators. Lowry playing off the ball is irrelevant as Kemba does as well - though maybe I am missing your point completely.

But Lowry also plays with a bunch of creators? Siakam is #1, FVV has a lot of touches, Gasol runs the offense out of the higher post a lot, Powell does a ton of ISO, Ibaka demands a lot of shots (usually spoon fed from Lowry), etc.

There’s some misconception here that Tatum/Hayward/Brown are superior and more usage heavy than Siakam/Vleet/Powell (Gasol, Ibaka, etc.) but it’s really all in name power but not actually true in practice.

[YogurtProducer]

Lowry doesnt elevate his game in the playoffs more times than NOT.

Only 2 good playoff runs

Kemba has 1 good, 1 bad..

Wow, this is not true in the slightest. Lowry has been the most clutch player in the NBA playoffs the last 5 years. I'm not going to penalise Lowry for the failure of the players around him.

Don’t even, people will point to 2016 or game 1 against Orlando and ignore absolutely everything else.

[PistolPeteJR]

Kemba is the better scorer but Lowry is better at everything else.

Basically.

[docholliday99]

I think you're misreading my point. I'm saying that giving Walker a pass because he "has too many weapons" doesn't make sense because Lowry has also played and succeeded with other talented players over the years. Not an anti-Lowry take the exact opposite.

I'm not giving Kemba a pass, Lowry is the better player of the 2 because of his defence. I am saying that Kemba will probably not have stats better than Lowry going forward because of playing with 3 other creators. Lowry playing off the ball is irrelevant - though maybe I am missing your point completely.

Lowry might have better stats if he was slumming it on the Hornets and running 75 high pick and rolls a game.

I'm not sure where you went with your post. If Lowry was on the Hornets, his numbers would definitely not be as good.

[docholliday99]

I think you're misreading my point. I'm saying that giving Walker a pass because he "has too many weapons" doesn't make sense because Lowry has also played and succeeded with other talented players over the years. Not an anti-Lowry take the exact opposite.

I'm not giving Kemba a pass, Lowry is the better player of the 2 because of his defence. I am saying that Kemba will probably not have stats better than Lowry going forward because of playing with 3 other creators. Lowry playing off the ball is irrelevant as Kemba does as well - though maybe I am missing your point completely.

But Lowry also plays with a bunch of creators? Siakam is #1, FVV has a lot of touches, Gasol runs the offense out of the higher post a lot, Powell does a ton of ISO, Ibaka demands a lot of shots (usually spoon fed from Lowry), etc.

There’s some misconception here that Tatum/Hayward/Brown are superior and more usage heavy than Siakam/Vleet/Powell (Gasol, Ibaka, etc.) but it’s really all in name power but not actually true in practice.

I think you're seriously under rating the play of Tatum, Hayward and Brown and I didn't say they were superior to Pascal - the opposite actually. FVV does play with Lowry though he also leads the second unit where FVV gets a number of his stats. If any player creates for others it's not Pascal, it's Gasol.

[Sixerscan]

I'm not giving Kemba a pass, Lowry is the better player of the 2 because of his defence. I am saying that Kemba will probably not have stats better than Lowry going forward because of playing with 3 other creators. Lowry playing off the ball is irrelevant - though maybe I am missing your point completely.

Lowry might have better stats if he was slumming it on the Hornets and running 75 high pick and rolls a game.

I'm not sure where you went with your post. If Lowry was on the Hornets, his numbers would definitely not be as good.

I'm saying the reason Kemba's numbers were better on the hornets because he was able to do whatever maximized his skills. Lowry has to sacrifice as part of a team game, and now Kemba does too.

[docholliday99]

Lowry might have better stats if he was slumming it on the Hornets and running 75 high pick and rolls a game.

I'm not sure where you went with your post. If Lowry was on the Hornets, his numbers would definitely not be as good.

I'm saying the reason Kemba's numbers were better on the hornets because he was able to do whatever maximized his skills. Lowry has to sacrifice as part of a team game, and now Kemba does too.

You're right of course, but their numbers are fairly similar this year. The only thing that's consistently different is Lowry is the better defender. If I'm going into the playoffs, I want Lowry over Kemba.

[celticfan42487]

Yeah it's pretty absurd to think the Celtics with Lowry would be challenging MIL.

And while the lack of having the biggest poison in the NBA of Irving has helped. I think part of the reason that the Celtics team is doing well is because no one can play well with Irving and Walker plays a conventional game instead of a dribble, grab 3 defenders, shoot a shot over 3 people.

Walker instead does the traditional drive and kick game to get others open shots along with getting in the top 5 or 10 or so in charges taken every season on defense right with Lowry. And that just helps the entire team and it's no surprise with his complementary and more PG type game that suddenly Tatum and Brown have gone off. Neither Brown nor Tatum are yet at an offensive ball in his hands every play lead person and benefit from having an actual PG setting up players with his drive and kick game and running plays. As well as forcing the opposition to guard him with that 37% from 3 on 8 attempts per game (also just like Lowry).

Honestly I think the best way to describe Kemba is he's Lowry but instead of the high aspg he's got the Irving ISO and scoring ability. Similar level players in a different flavor but I 100% doubt Tatum or Siakam would have had the success they've had without those critical team players skills (top 10 in charges on defense every year, 7+ 3PA on high %s every year, running the offense either drive and kick with Walker or tremendous passing to undress the defense in Lowry).

Again let's just hope they can keep it up for next year and we get to enjoy it. For each player every year could be their last year as a solid borderline all-star level player.

When I said I think the Celtics would be favored in the East with Lowry, I didn't mean it as to say that Lowry is a significantly better individual player than Kemba; he's not. Kemba is clearly one of the best scoring guards in the league and better at a lot of things than Lowry.

However, I really do believe that Lowry is one of the best in the league strictly at getting the most out of his teammates, which I would think would be more valuable to the Celtics right now. It's a massive part of why the raptors have had so many winning seasons since he got here. Guys like JV, Delon, Bismack Biyombo, CJ Miles were really great for us and have seemingly fallen off a bit since leaving.

I just feel like if you paired Lowry with a true closer like Tatum and other key pieces like Brown, Smart, Hayward - they'd have a fantastic shot to win the East, even against Giannis. If they had a great interior defender I would definitely bet on them to do so.

I feel like Lowry can fit on any team with any playstyle and he will still be productive. Playing with someone like young DeRozan really helped him out when Kawhi got here. He knew exactly how to play with a ball dominate iso player while still impacting the game.

Okay in that case the only part I think is crazy is the idea we can win without an MVP level player on our team.

So no contention on Lowry, just moreso I think I value the Celtics players a little less than you

Tatum is doing well as a scorer but he only went on a hot streak, he's developing but isn't really on a different tier than a Kemba or a Lowry himself.

Tatum and Daniel Theis are sneaky excellent team defenders that really boost there value. But yeah, Boston much like the past idk 6 years needs one of "the man" players. And we'd still not have one. Maybe if Tatum experiences like Siakam level growth he could get there, but damn he'd have to like develop Durant level shooting to do it.

And sadly Hayward is really broke down, he can do it against bad teams and sometimes against good teams but I doubt his body has enough jump in it left to really be consistent in playoff level games. That's one thing I do respect about the playoffs... they really bring out the advantages of freaks of natures athletically to the fore. Probably due to the 48 minute intensity and lack of soft fouls.

[4pointkiller]

Kemba is much more efficient scorer. Lowry is a game manager, but he doesn't take over a game like Kemba can. I think a lot of people are sleeping on Kemba this year because he's been able to take it easy finally playing with other playmakers. He is going to shock some people this playoffs, top 5 player.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Kemba is much more efficient scorer. Lowry is a game manager, but he doesn't take over a game like Kemba can. I think a lot of people are sleeping on Kemba this year because he's been able to take it easy finally playing with other playmakers. He is going to shock some people this playoffs, top 5 player.

Top five? Really.

[rtiff68]

People give Lowry more respect than they did in 2017 when he was a 22/7 and 62TS% player and was arguably one of the best top 10-12 players in the league.

...and that’s a bit of a stretch, and kind of proves my point (because, without even looking, I’m pretty positive that you’re a Raptors’ fan).

I would say he was definitely closer to 20th than 10th.

... but it isnt a stretch. He averaged 22/7, played great/elite defence, rebounded elite for a PG, and was incredibly efficient

He put 22.4ppg including 7.8 3pa/gm on 41.2% including a ton of pull ups and deep shots. Add 7.3apg as well.

He was 3rd All-NBA the year prior and was Even better in 2017 but missed too many games to really be considered. Arguably, he had a case for one of the best 5 guards in the entire league behind Curry, Westbrook, Harden, and maybe Thomas that year (although even then KLow was more impactful IMO)

It’s a stretch, man.

If it isn’t, name the players that year that were definitely better and more impactful. Then slot Lowry in at 10-12 and explain why he belongs with the players you’ve slotted there.

[Prokorov]

For me it’s Kyle Lowry but it seems most think it’s Kemba.

Can someone tell me how Kemba is the better player?

Assuming health its hard not to take Lowry.

Statically Kemba scores more on more shots. but doesnt really top lowry anywhere else. shooting/efficiency is close with a slight edge to lowry. assists/playmaking is an edge for lowry.

From a winning standpoint he has been a top 2 player on 50+ and 60+ win teams and won a title as a #2/#3 core piece. Kemba hasnt had great teams, but he hasnt been able to even grab 8 seeds in a terrible east that often only required 38ish wins.

Defensively its lowry across the board

playoffs you could typically try and hate on lowry, but kemba doesnt have the playoff resume to do that

unless you factor durability, it has to be lowry

[hippesthippo]

Kemba cause he's amurican.

[NinjaBro]

Kemba is much more efficient scorer. Lowry is a game manager, but he doesn't take over a game like Kemba can. I think a lot of people are sleeping on Kemba this year because he's been able to take it easy finally playing with other playmakers. He is going to shock some people this playoffs, top 5 player.

Top five? Really.

LOL people pulling top 5 out of their asses

[Smithers]

It's Kemba- & it's not really all that close

[Floody100]

ones coming off leading his team to a championship

This is absurd. You guys don’t make it out of the second round if you don’t do the Derozan/Kawhi trade. He helped you guys win a championship but he definitely didn’t “lead” your team to a championship.

[Son Goku 25]

Kyrie Irving of course.. oh yeah this is definitely not a relevant question because both teams aren't fighting for the 2nd seed in their respective conferences. The salty fans in here who im not gonna name can go cry somewhere else if they have an issue with it.

[Duffman100]

It's Kemba- & it's not really all that close

Lol I figured you'd show up! Haven't seen you on a raptors thread for awhile.

[Son Goku 25]

1st thread definitely goes Raptors, but considering Toronto is a highly talked about landing spot for Giannis, sure it's probably going to end.

What's the second thread suppose to show?

Toronto is a highly talked about landing spot for Giannis - in what context? Is this in regards to the media or are you referencing posters on the General Board? If it's the latter, then by your definition every thread can go off into a Raptors tangent and be okay with you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=giannis+to+toronto&rlz=1C5CHFA_enCA873CA875&oq=giannis+to+toronto&aqs=chrome.0.0l5j69i61l3.5991j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There ya go. So it makes sense.

Again, what was the 2nd thread you posted? Or did you not expect for me to read it?

This thread is literally ABOUT a Raptor, a PC of two players, and you came in to complain anyways?

I would say something but don't want to trigger someone more looks like it's been handled, good day sir.