Did Joakim Noah See a Single Minute Against Jokic?

[tsirigoj]

I realize things have been derailed so I'll try to stick on point.

Aww... But why would you wanna do that? The new discussion is by far more fun than the original one

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of equalizing Giannis and Jokic when it comes to athleticism, and Giannis coming out on top skill wise.

I mean, Giannis is a bad shooter who can't pass that well or read a defense and has bad handles, but has such amazing athleticism that he moves, pivots, runs and jumps like a guard, while Jokic is so skilled that even at his molasses level speed he schools NBA stars on a regular basis, but has so little athleticism that you could make him play in flip flops and you'd barely notice any difference. But yeah. Giannis would still be more skilled.

Also, that confusion between the basketball term "big man" and the pure definition of "tall man" has me intrigued. But I think I need to keep reading because there's a guy here who knows more about basketball than 99% of us. So who am I to argue?

I am of the opinion that Jokic is clearly the most skilled big man (not "man that happens to be big") in the NBA, but I'm here to learn.

Even if I give you guys that Jokic is more skilled than Giannis, the whole "Jokic is the most skilled big man in the NBA" is literally not true due to every other player on that list (Lebron, AD, Durant, etc.)

[3toheadmelo]

Jokic would’ve averaged 30/20/10 if Noah guarded him

[Salieri]

I realize things have been derailed so I'll try to stick on point.

Aww... But why would you wanna do that? The new discussion is by far more fun than the original one

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of equalizing Giannis and Jokic when it comes to athleticism, and Giannis coming out on top skill wise.

I mean, Giannis is a bad shooter who can't pass that well or read a defense and has bad handles, but has such amazing athleticism that he moves, pivots, runs and jumps like a guard, while Jokic is so skilled that even at his molasses level speed he schools NBA stars on a regular basis, but has so little athleticism that you could make him play in flip flops and you'd barely notice any difference. But yeah. Giannis would still be more skilled.

Also, that confusion between the basketball term "big man" and the pure definition of "tall man" has me intrigued. But I think I need to keep reading because there's a guy here who knows more about basketball than 99% of us. So who am I to argue?

I am of the opinion that Jokic is clearly the most skilled big man (not "man that happens to be big") in the NBA, but I'm here to learn.

Even if I give you guys that Jokic is more skilled than Giannis, the whole "Jokic is the most skilled big man in the NBA" is literally not true due to every other player on that list (Lebron, AD, Durant, etc.)

Let's go through that list, ok?

- LeBron: not a big man
- AD: Jokic is more skilled
- Giannis: already discussed
- Durant: not a big man
- Embiid: Jokic is more skilled

So yes, from that list, Jokic is still undefeated in the skills department for big men.

Now, keep in mind that I say LeBron and Durant are not big men because they don't play like big men. Despite their size, they behave like perimeter men on the court. That's not to say they have never posted up anyone, of course. So has Harden, for example. And Kobe took pride in being the best postup player in the league, back in the day. A certain degree of versatility is needed and always welcome for any star. But no, they don't play like big men. They're not tasked with defending centers for entire games, and they don't spend 70% of the game setting up screens and waiting in the paint for the entry pass to get to work. So they are not big men despite being men that are big.

Regarding AD and Embiid (and Giannis), I believe Jokic is more skilled. Much more skilled? Not necessarily. Ad and Embiid are no slouches in the skill department, but Jokic is a generational talent in that regard. It's no shame to be less skilled than the most skilled big man we have seen in a decade.

[tsirigoj]

Aww... But why would you wanna do that? The new discussion is by far more fun than the original one

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of equalizing Giannis and Jokic when it comes to athleticism, and Giannis coming out on top skill wise.

I mean, Giannis is a bad shooter who can't pass that well or read a defense and has bad handles, but has such amazing athleticism that he moves, pivots, runs and jumps like a guard, while Jokic is so skilled that even at his molasses level speed he schools NBA stars on a regular basis, but has so little athleticism that you could make him play in flip flops and you'd barely notice any difference. But yeah. Giannis would still be more skilled.

Also, that confusion between the basketball term "big man" and the pure definition of "tall man" has me intrigued. But I think I need to keep reading because there's a guy here who knows more about basketball than 99% of us. So who am I to argue?

I am of the opinion that Jokic is clearly the most skilled big man (not "man that happens to be big") in the NBA, but I'm here to learn.

Even if I give you guys that Jokic is more skilled than Giannis, the whole "Jokic is the most skilled big man in the NBA" is literally not true due to every other player on that list (Lebron, AD, Durant, etc.)

Let's go through that list, ok?

- LeBron: not a big man
- AD: Jokic is more skilled
- Giannis: already discussed
- Durant: not a big man
- Embiid: Jokic is more skilled

So yes, from that list, Jokic is still undefeated in the skills department for big men.

Now, keep in mind that I say LeBron and Durant are not big men because they don't play like big men. Despite their size, they behave like perimeter men on the court. That's not to say they have never posted up anyone, of course. So has Harden, for example. And Kobe took pride in being the best postup player in the league, back in the day. A certain degree of versatility is needed and always welcome for any star. But no, they don't play like big men. They're not tasked with defending centers for entire games, and they don't spend 70% of the game setting up screens and waiting in the paint for the entry pass to get to work. So they are not big men despite being men that are big.

Regarding AD and Embiid (and Giannis), I believe Jokic is more skilled. Much more skilled? Not necessarily. Ad and Embiid are no slouches in the skill department, but Jokic is a generational talent in that regard. It's no shame to be less skilled than the most skilled big man we have seen in a decade.

This is all fair, but perhaps they don't "play like big men" BECAUSE they are too skilled?

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Noah could have played effectively for 10-15 min a game against Jokic. He's a former DPOY, and a great passer. Unless he's been absolute trash in practices, I would at least gave him a look. Was odd indeed.

[Salieri]

Even if I give you guys that Jokic is more skilled than Giannis, the whole "Jokic is the most skilled big man in the NBA" is literally not true due to every other player on that list (Lebron, AD, Durant, etc.)

Let's go through that list, ok?

- LeBron: not a big man
- AD: Jokic is more skilled
- Giannis: already discussed
- Durant: not a big man
- Embiid: Jokic is more skilled

So yes, from that list, Jokic is still undefeated in the skills department for big men.

Now, keep in mind that I say LeBron and Durant are not big men because they don't play like big men. Despite their size, they behave like perimeter men on the court. That's not to say they have never posted up anyone, of course. So has Harden, for example. And Kobe took pride in being the best postup player in the league, back in the day. A certain degree of versatility is needed and always welcome for any star. But no, they don't play like big men. They're not tasked with defending centers for entire games, and they don't spend 70% of the game setting up screens and waiting in the paint for the entry pass to get to work. So they are not big men despite being men that are big.

Regarding AD and Embiid (and Giannis), I believe Jokic is more skilled. Much more skilled? Not necessarily. Ad and Embiid are no slouches in the skill department, but Jokic is a generational talent in that regard. It's no shame to be less skilled than the most skilled big man we have seen in a decade.

This is all fair, but perhaps they don't "play like big men" BECAUSE they are too skilled?

You would think so, but it's at least debatable.

What make LeBron and Durant not play like big men is not only their skill. It's their athleticism. Of course, they still need the skill, that's undeniable. But it's not the deciding factor IMO.

LeBron is as fast and nimble as a guard. His first step was something to behold in his prime, second to none. His jumping off one foot, his ability to stop on a dime, his sudden acceleration, that paired with the mass he carries around makes him unstoppable when driving. If you have a guy who moves like a guard but has the body of a PF, you make him a perimeter player... As long as he has guard skills.

Durant simply doesn't have the body of a big man. He has the length and the height, but that's it. He doesn't have the mass or the strength. Durant defending the paint for one entire season or getting deep position to receive an entry pass? He would get ragdolled out of the arena every night.

Anyway, at least you seem to agree now that both Durant and LeBron are NOT big men. They don't qualify as such. Thus, in any list of the most skilled big men in the league, their names shouldn't come up at all. Jokic is still king in that list. Long may he reign.

[JoeyLightYears]

Regarding AD and Embiid (and Giannis), I believe Jokic is more skilled. Much more skilled? Not necessarily. Ad and Embiid are no slouches in the skill department, but Jokic is a generational talent in that regard. It's no shame to be less skilled than the most skilled big man we have seen in a decade.

I'm not sure if Jokic is more "skilled" than AD. What does he do better besides pass and post-up? AD is a better rebounder, a better shooter (3Pt and FT), better scorer, and infinitely better defender. I think Jokic's game is enjoyable in many ways because it's relatable-- he's this sort of slow, awkward guy who makes very clever reads and passes, a lot like Larry Bird. And he may be the type of guy you can plugin to any offense. But as far as basketball skills.. hard to make that call.

[Clay Davis]

Skilled? Definitely.

But here are some 'big men' that are more skilled:
-Anthony Davis
-Giannis
-Durant (obviously when healthy)
-Joel Embiid

MAYBE I'll put Jokic on the same level as KAT, but that may also be pushing it.

KD is the only guy that is on the same level and KD is a perimeter player and not a big man. How in anyone's right mind is Joel Embiid more skilled than Jokic? I dont think even hardcore 6ers fans would say this.

Wait....I want this in writing.....you think Jokic is more skilled than Anthony Davis AND Giannis?

Yeah but that doesn't mean he's more impactful. Both of those guys really rely on their athleticism.

[Salieri]

Regarding AD and Embiid (and Giannis), I believe Jokic is more skilled. Much more skilled? Not necessarily. Ad and Embiid are no slouches in the skill department, but Jokic is a generational talent in that regard. It's no shame to be less skilled than the most skilled big man we have seen in a decade.

I'm not sure if Jokic is more "skilled" than AD. What does he do better besides pass and post-up? AD is a better rebounder, a better shooter (3Pt and FT), better scorer, and infinitely better defender. I think Jokic's game is enjoyable in many ways because it's relatable-- he's this sort of slow, awkward guy who makes very clever reads and passes, a lot like Larry Bird. And he may be the type of guy you can plugin to any offense. But as far as basketball skills.. hard to make that call.

Let's see.

- Rebounding: AD is a better rebounder. Not by much, but sure his career average is 0.8 higher. Rebounding well is a function of skill, athleticism and intelligence, IMO. And given that the gap in athleticism between both players is Grand Canyon level wide, I'd be inclined to say that's the explanation for the rebounding difference. Not the skill. That is, if you agree that rebounding is not entirely dependent on skill.

- Shooting: No. Jokic is a better shooter, both in 3pt and in FT. His career averages are a bit higher, although not by much as with rebounding.

- Scoring: AD has higher scoring averages, that's true. I still don't think he's a better scorer, but that's a personal, subjective opinion on mine. Jokic is more efficient, AD scores more points. Could Jokic score more if he wanted? I'm sure he could. At what point his efficiency drops to AD levels or below? I don't know. Still, I won't argue if you think AD is a better scorer.

- Defense: I agree with you. AD is quite better at defense than Jokic. I wouldn't say infinitely because I happen to disagree with the notion that Jokic is a bad defender. But sure, Jokic is outclassed here.

Considering all this and considering the things Jokic is better at, I still think the advantage in skill is for Jokic. As I said, it might be a small advantage, but a clear one in my opinion.

[JoeyLightYears]

To be clear, after the last series I think Jokic is my new favorite player to watch, and I think your arguments are totally valid. I was looking at this year's stats when comparing them (although I see now that Jokic actually outrebounded AD this year). I don't think Jokic is quite the non-athlete everyone makes him out to be though. He's just really slow and looks out of shape (he's obviously in phenomenal shape to be able to play the kind of intense minutes he does though). He's got very good hands and coordination and I would consider those in the scope of athleticism much like I considered Larry Legend an athlete.

[Salieri]

To be clear, after the last series I think Jokic is my new favorite player to watch, and I think your arguments are totally valid. I was looking at this year's stats when comparing them (although I see now that Jokic actually outrebounded AD this year). I don't think Jokic is quite the non-athlete everyone makes him out to be though. He's just really slow and looks out of shape (he's obviously in phenomenal shape to be able to play the kind of intense minutes he does though). He's got very good hands and coordination and I would consider those in the scope of athleticism much like I considered Larry Legend an athlete.

To be fair, I consider Jokic some kind of unicorn athleticism wise. When I'm taking for granted his subpar athleticism, I'm speaking about what NBA fans consider athleticism: being quick, being fast, jumping high. He's below average in those, that much is undeniable.

At a broader, I might say more accurate scope, I think Jokic is elite in some aspects of athleticism. As you said, coordination, body control -even if a weird one-, stamina. He is elite at all these things. And those count too. He plays in slo-mo and he barely jumps when taking a jumpshot, which is why I said you could make him play in flip flops and you wouldn't see much of a difference. But he's able to move his hands in ways that other big men can't, and not because of lack of skill. Can you imagine Gobert with Jokic's hands to not fumble passes?

[SF_Warriors]

Jokic literally averaged 26ppg on 62.5 TS% against rudy gobert. What was 35 year old noah going to be able to do?

[tsirigoj]

I think this should be bumped.

"Jokic is better than AD."

Still so cute and hilarious.