Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[Quattro]

It's spectacular that in a thread asking whether Jordan was a better basketball player how few arguments are even attempted that he was a better basketball player. A great deal of them are just this argle-bargle again.

Though the OP is slanted to the point of silliness, it's a reasonable question. Feel free to put the taking points away and debate.

If someone wants a reasonable discussion, perhaps they should start the thread with a reasonable question rather than the utter nonsense he posted.

Or, we could all take responsibility for our own posts instead of responding "but Mom, he started it." I think the site would be much better for it.

Sure. I’ll waste my time presenting my position that I believe that MJ was the best basketball player I’ve ever seen play with someone who suggested that anyone who disagrees with him is a sociopath.

I’m sure that discussion would have gone well.

[LivingLegend]

No.

MJ without Pippen:
5 seasons
5 losing seasons
1-9 playoff record


MJ never faced an athletic perimeter defender his size in his prime. He was dominating smaller players like Starks, Hornacek, Byron Scott, Hersey Hawkins, Dan Majerle. LeBron was facing the greatest perimeter defensive team in the finals on a yearly basis. Draymond, KD, Iggy, and Klay is a stacked defensive lineup. MJ never faced a defender as tough as one of those, with the exception of Payton who shut him down, let alone 4 on the same team. Not to mention beasts like Kawhi, Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion too.

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

[Camping Fan]

It's spectacular that in a thread asking whether Jordan was a better basketball player how few arguments are even attempted that he was a better basketball player. A great deal of them are just this argle-bargle again.

Though the OP is slanted to the point of silliness, it's a reasonable question. Feel free to put the taking points away and debate.

If someone wants a reasonable discussion, perhaps they should start the thread with a reasonable question rather than the utter nonsense he posted.

Or, we could all take responsibility for our own posts instead of responding "but Mom, he started it." I think the site would be much better for it.

I remember when Kobe was in his planet - the younger generation thought Kobe was the greatest of all time - No one thought there had ever been a better player and he was "God" - As much of a Lakers fan I was at the time: "No I said" "There are many players that were better then Kobe and Michael Jordan was one them, but I do think Kobe will end his career in the top 20 and possibly the top ten" Now they are saying the same thing about LeBron because they never saw what Michael Jordan did or accomplish. That's something I do understand even though I don't agree with... In about five years after LeBron has retired - then we will have a better idea of what we can compare to - but for now - Kobe Bryant was the closest to Michael Jordan's accomplishments then LeBron who has not quite finished his career yet. Let's see what he has for an encore first before we decide - but my guess is he still comes in next to Michael and Kobe, but Magic Johnson and Kareem do belong in that same conversation as well as Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell

[loserX]

If someone wants a reasonable discussion, perhaps they should start the thread with a reasonable question rather than the utter nonsense he posted.

Or, we could all take responsibility for our own posts instead of responding "but Mom, he started it." I think the site would be much better for it.

Sure. I’ll waste my time presenting my position that I believe that MJ was the best basketball player I’ve ever seen play with someone who suggested that anyone who disagrees with him is a sociopath.

I’m sure that discussion would have gone well.

There are some people in this thread taking the discussion seriously, you can always debate with them. Or, if you don't think the discussion is worth having, you can always just not post. Save yourself some aggravation.

There are no circumstances where *also* posting irrelevant argle-bargle helps. None.

[RiseOfTheEmpire]

Arguments for LeBron:

Highest box and non-box statistical peak in a much, much more internationally competitive and sophisticated era against superior athletes and teams who actually mathematically understand how to play basketball

Far superior versatility and longevity


"Arguments" for MJ:

Romanticized sociopathy

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"


I have no doubt whatsoever that Kawhi could have three-peated twice in MJ's situation.

Your trash ass thread is devoid of any facts, statistics or personal analysis on why you think your **** opinion doesn't stink, and you want others to take the time and effort to retort your troll attempt with in depth thought?

Here, I'll **** with you, too....don't want to bring championships into this, how about personal accomplishments. We'll start with 10 scoring titles.

How about aesthetics, skills? Can Kawhi or Lebron do a single thing MJ could mid-air? Many called MJ the GOAT during his first threepeat, he didn't even need the second one, simply because OF HIS GAME, forget everything else. Couple that with dominance, and you have a thing of beauty.

Turn off Youtube, close basketballreference.com and go watch some Bulls ESPN classic from opening tip to final horn, that's the only way you'll get it.

Kurt Rambis and John Stockton ....here he is shooting a beautiful fadeaway on a muscle bound black guy that would chew and spit out the defensive stalwarts of this era, RIP.



Kawhi could three peat twice, foh, 13ppg Finals MVP.

[SF_Warriors]

No.

MJ without Pippen:
5 seasons
5 losing seasons
1-9 playoff record


MJ never faced an athletic perimeter defender his size in his prime. He was dominating smaller players like Starks, Hornacek, Byron Scott, Hersey Hawkins, Dan Majerle. LeBron was facing the greatest perimeter defensive team in the finals on a yearly basis. Draymond, KD, Iggy, and Klay is a stacked defensive lineup. MJ never faced a defender as tough as one of those, with the exception of Payton who shut him down, let alone 4 on the same team. Not to mention beasts like Kawhi, Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion too.

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

People always point out how good the teams Bron faced in the finals..How many of those teams were as good as the 86 Celtics?

[LivingLegend]

Arguments for LeBron:

Highest box and non-box statistical peak in a much, much more internationally competitive and sophisticated era against superior athletes and teams who actually mathematically understand how to play basketball

Far superior versatility and longevity


"Arguments" for MJ:

Romanticized sociopathy

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"


I have no doubt whatsoever that Kawhi could have three-peated twice in MJ's situation.

Your trash ass thread is devoid of any facts, statistics or personal analysis on why you think your **** opinion doesn't stink, and you want others to take the time and effort to retort your troll attempt? Nice try.

Here's one....don't want to bring championships into this, how about personal accomplishments. We'll start with 10 scoring titles.

Another one, how about aesthetics, skills? Can Kawhi do a single thing MJ could mid-air? Many called MJ the GOAT during his first threepeat, he didn't even need the second one, simply because OF HIS GAME, forget everything else.

Turn off Youtube, close basketballreference.com and go watch some Bulls ESPN classic from opening tip to final horn, that's the only way you'll get it.

Kawhi could three peat twice, foh.

I would prefer not to fall asleep by the 2nd qtr watching a 190lb milk man in short shorts, sport goggles and a 24 inch vertical trying to guard MJ.

[Bornstellar]

Better scorer, better defender, more rings, more FMVPS, more MVPs, more DPOY, more scoring titles, etc. I am a LeBron fan but he is clearly still behind MJ for me. He is #2 behind MJ though

[MrBigShot]

A lot of people seem to use the "the league is so much better now" argument against Jordan. But never take into account the benefits Jordan would get from playing in today's era.
Jordan would benefit greatly from today's spacing, today's defensive rules, lowered thresholds of flagrant fouls, increased ticky tack foul calls, lack of hand checking, etc.
There's also a pretty big difference between copy/pasting Jordan/the 90s Bulls to today's era and having a Jordan clone brought up in this era. Its a pretty pointless argument though, because there's no way that we'll ever be able to tell. What we do know though, is Jordan dominated the circumstances he was given, which is the most we could have asked for. This is also why I don't argue when someone puts Bill Russell over Jordan. You can't fault Russell for the era he was born in. He did the most he could possibly do with it.

Good post. I used to think that the "MJ would average 45 today" was just old men yelling at clouds. Today though? I think its not so farfetched at all.

[LivingLegend]

Are you slandering the name of John Stockton in the OP? Stockton was a heck of a player and would still be dominant today. If you're going to pick two white guys from Jordan's era to prove it was worse maybe don't start with John Stockton.

I mean, John Stockton averaged 13ppg for his career. If he played in todays NBA he would be Ricky Rubio.

[Camping Fan]

No.

MJ without Pippen:
5 seasons
5 losing seasons
1-9 playoff record


MJ never faced an athletic perimeter defender his size in his prime. He was dominating smaller players like Starks, Hornacek, Byron Scott, Hersey Hawkins, Dan Majerle. LeBron was facing the greatest perimeter defensive team in the finals on a yearly basis. Draymond, KD, Iggy, and Klay is a stacked defensive lineup. MJ never faced a defender as tough as one of those, with the exception of Payton who shut him down, let alone 4 on the same team. Not to mention beasts like Kawhi, Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion too.

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

You are most likley taking to younger kids or adults who are not old enough and mature enough to remember Michael Jordan.

They used to say the same things about Kobe Bryant when he was in his prime. We were all Lakers fans and called them KLF's which was short for Kobe Loving *place vulgar word Here*

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

What LeBron did in 2007 was impressive, I give him credit for it. But you have to take into consideration the opposition. Who did he have to go through to get the Finals?

The 41-win Arenas/Jamison/Butler Wizards.
The 41-win Kidd/Vince Carter Nets.
The 53-win Billups/Rip/Prince/Rasheed Pistons.

The Cavs and the Pistons were the only two teams in the East to crack 50 wins that year. Those Wizards and Nets teams were pure early-round playoff fodder and the Cavs breezed through them like they should have. That Pistons team was still solid, to be sure, but Big Ben was gone and they were past their peak. LeBron's performance against them was great, and he deserves the credit for it, but I don't think he would have done that to the 2004 or 2005 Pistons.

MJ didn't get to the Finals until 1991 because he lost to the 1986 Celtics, the 1987 Celtics, the 1988 Pistons, the 1989 Pistons, and the 1990 Pistons. In all five of those seasons, he lost to the team that came out of the East. In three of those five seasons, he lost to the eventual champion. And those last two years were far from first-round exits - they were ECF battles that went six and seven games.

Are we really going to hold it against MJ that he didn't beat the 86 and 87 Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics - perhaps one of the five greatest teams of all time - when his second best player was Charles Oakley? Or that he had to lose to an incredibly tough back-to-back champion in the Bad Boy Pistons a couple of times before he could ascend?

Come on.

[Eye of Horus]

That he wasn't a dick riding coward who left when the Celtics took his nutsack? That he beat his arch nemesis without having to go run and join Isiah or Bird.

You just summed it up perfectly

[SF_Warriors]

Are you slandering the name of John Stockton in the OP? Stockton was a heck of a player and would still be dominant today. If you're going to pick two white guys from Jordan's era to prove it was worse maybe don't start with John Stockton.

I mean, John Stockton averaged 13ppg for his career. If he played in todays NBA he would be Ricky Rubio.

So Rubio is a HOF guard if he played in the 90s? Terrible take, bro.

[wade44]

Ah, this thread again

[Cavsfansince84]

Good post. I used to think that the "MJ would average 45 today" was just old men yelling at clouds. Today though? I think its not so farfetched at all.

I think there's a difference between would and could. I mean Harden at one point in this season(roughly 40 games in) was averaging 38.4ppg. Then all of a sudden his fga went down by about 40% while WB's went way up and he started having monster games. I think its obvious that MDA knew he had to get WB more involved in the offense and asked Harden to take a step back. So theoretically I think Harden could easily have kept up his pace and finished somewhere between 38-40ppg. So I agree that circa 87-91 MJ could average close to 40 also in today's league but it becomes a question of whether a coach really wants one guy shooting that much and MJ probably realizing its not in his best interests if he wants to win rings. So I think in today's league he'd have a couple of years in the 35-40ppg range and then get better teammates and realize that 30-35ppg on good efficiency is a better usage rate for him to be at on a team that is trying to win a title.

[-MetA4-]

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

What a hilariously disingenuous argument.

The only reason why 22 year old LeBron wasn't being bounced in the 1st round is because the Eastern conference was so vapid that even those "just getting good" Cleveland teams could advance to the finals. Yeah...22 year old MJ got bounced in the 1st round...by ****ing Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics, and the Detroit Pistons with a HOF Zeke Thomas. Need we bring up that MJ averaged 44 ppg against the Celtics; playing alongside who exactly? They simply weren't ready to battle teams that were literal dynasties, big deal. LeBron's only competition in the East for years was Demar Derozan's Raptors. You are comparing apples to hot dogs.

Both guys get the obvious leeway of the fact that as being young stars on teams that were previously horrendous, there is an expected initial stage in the "rising period" wherein the young star finally takes the team to the playoffs, but lacks playoff experience and the rest of the team still isn't good enough to actually contend against a good team. This is the case with virtually every young star who actually succeeds in turning around a bad team. The only difference is that when LeBron was in this "stage" the East was so pathetically bad that even with Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic he was able to advance. You're telling me that 22 year old LeBron beats Bird and the Celtics? Ooookay.

Also, how in the hell is LeBron in the Wizards era of his career? He is 35 years old...Jordan was 40 when he was playing with the Wizards. There is a huge difference in 35 vs. 40. LeBron has also played in the softest era of NBA basketball in decades; which means that he has avoided punishment his entire career...hence why he has been able to age gracefully.

[JoeyLightYears]

Are we really going to hold it against MJ that he didn't beat the 86 and 87 Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics - perhaps one of the five greatest teams of all time - when his second best player was Charles Oakley? Or that he had to lose to an incredibly tough back-to-back champion in the Bad Boy Pistons a couple of times before he could ascend?

To me the more impressive thing is that LeBron did make those Cavs squads respectable considering the trash he had around him (early MJ had similar trash). People can poo-poo the competition but Cleveland did a really bad job giving LeBron even a modicum of help so to take them to the playoffs and sometimes pretty deep is an accomplishment in itself. I would say LeBron probably carried a team about as well as any player in history, although he may not be as successful as MJ with better teams due to his need to dominate the ball.

Comparisons across eras and different teams are stupid, period, and it's ridiculous that half the threads on basketball forums are about this crap.

[LivingLegend]

Its still insane to me that everyone on planet Earth trims the fat of MJs career and only ever focus on the center cut prime 6 year run.

LeBron is currently in his 'Wizards' era of his career and he is still, without a doubt, the best player in this league.

When MJ was 22 years old he was getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. When LeBron was 22 years old he was dragging Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic to the NBA Finals.

What a hilariously disingenuous argument.

The only reason why 22 year old LeBron wasn't being bounced in the 1st round is because the Eastern conference was so vapid that even those "just getting good" Cleveland teams could advance to the finals. Yeah...22 year old MJ got bounced in the 1st round...by ****ing Larry Bird and the Boston Celtics, and the Detroit Pistons with a HOF Zeke Thomas. Need we bring up that MJ averaged 44 ppg against the Celtics; playing alongside who exactly? They simply weren't ready to battle teams that were literal dynasties, big deal. LeBron's only competition in the East for years was Demar Derozan's Raptors. You are comparing apples to hot dogs.

Both guys get the obvious leeway of the fact that as being young stars on teams that were previously horrendous, there is an expected initial stage in the "rising period" wherein the young star finally takes the team to the playoffs, but lacks playoff experience and the rest of the team still isn't good enough to actually contend against a good team. This is the case with virtually every young star who actually succeeds in turning around a bad team. The only difference is that when LeBron was in this "stage" the East was so pathetically bad that even with Drew Gooden and Sasha Pavlovic he was able to advance. You're telling me that 22 year old LeBron beats Bird and the Celtics? Ooookay.

Also, how in the hell is LeBron in the Wizards era of his career? He is 35 years old...Jordan was 40 when he was playing with the Wizards. There is a huge difference in 35 vs. 40. LeBron has also played in the softest era of NBA basketball in decades; which means that he has avoided punishment his entire career...hence why he has been able to age gracefully.

I think your missing the point that back in the early 2000s, the East wasnt weak and he had to beat teams with multiple AllStars/HOFers to get to the Finals. The East became weak in 2010 when he went to the Heat and the Celtics shortly after were disbanded. Those Pistons teams with Chauncy/RIP/Sheed/Prince/Ben was no joke. And LeBron beat them practically single handedly

[TheHardenChoke]

So the whole argument by OP is basically empty stats = better basketball player.

LeBron isn't even in the GOAT discussion...its simple

I'm actually surprised after multiple collusions and so many cherry picked teams, that this loser could only muster up 3 rings...2 of which he was luckily bailed out on and given.

Nothing about this guy makes him Goat