How Come Buford and Gregg Popovich Get a Pass for Blowing the Kawhi Leonard Trade?

[Lalouie]

JUNE 28, 2018:

"The Los Angeles Lakers have reportedly made the San Antonio Spurs a "Godfather offer" for superstar forward Kawhi Le,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
(obviously Toronto and the Lakers (ironically) ended up doing well anyways, but the Spurs are now not in a great position)

because pops and bufford have built up an unimpeachable resume

[Baski]

So what you're saying is:

1. NBA superstar purposefully tanks his trade value
2. As expected, the team of said superstar gets a lower value asset from trading him
3. The team blew the trade

Ok.

[leolozon]

Even if they thought DD was the best offer to keep competing (which is somewhat dumb in itself), they should have had many many first round picks from Toronto.

They put themselves in a bad situation by just dealing with one team and acting like Toronto had the leverage.

It's honestly one of the worst trade I can think of and it's not brought up enough. It seems like Popovich thought about what was best for him and not what was best for the team. I guess no one should care because of everything he has down for San Antonio, but still...

[leolozon]

So what you're saying is:

1. NBA superstar purposefully tanks his trade value
2. As expected, the team of said superstar gets a lower value asset from trading him
3. The team blew the trade

Ok.

I'm not sure why you want to excuse them, they acted like they had 0 leverage. And then decided that Derozan was great enough that they didn't need to ask for multiple picks.

They didn't have to trade him when they did, they could have waited for a better offer, he was still under contract. They didn't have to trade him to Toronto. They got the worst return for a superstar all because Popovic/Buford though that Derozan was the best short term solution for them and didn't seem to care about the long term.

[Baski]

I'd also like to say that there is no dumber combination of words in sports than "should've tanked instead of tried to stay competitive". Do some of you know what the purpose of the draft is? Are you also aware of how many teams can actually win a title in a given year? How about the number of teams that tank and fittingly stay terrible for years? How feasible would it be for 66% of the league to willingly put out a terrible product in the hopes that some ping pong balls hand them the solution to all their problems? I repeat: It's an incredibly stupid philisophy.


"Oh we're just a 6-8th seed? Guess we'll just give up and hit the reset button, wait for the champs to fade away and pray that noone else in the league thought of this genius plan. And if we predictably end up as a 6-8th again we'll just reset again".
How the hell do so many people support such garbage?


I thank God I support a team that frowns on such loser mentality.

[Baski]

So what you're saying is:

1. NBA superstar purposefully tanks his trade value
2. As expected, the team of said superstar gets a lower value asset from trading him
3. The team blew the trade

Ok.

I'm not sure why you want to excuse them, they acted like they had 0 leverage. And then decided that Derozan was great enough that they didn't need to ask for multiple picks.

Did you see the offers that were made? I hope you're not one of those who believe that 2017 Ingram and Deng were supposedly better than what we got from the Raptors. You're aware that one year of an "injured" Kawhi Leonard is not the same as a potential 4 years of him yes? So hopefully you understand how the Spurs didn't have as much leverage as you think.

But I'm not even interested in excusing them. I do not think it was a bad trade given the circumstances, but my point is that it's silly to look at a team that was setup to fail and then talk about their failure like it wasn't expected.
"Why do we give Usian Bolt a pass for not outrunning that cheetah?"

They didn't have to trade him when they did, they could have waited for a better offer, he was still under contract. They didn't have to trade him to Toronto. They got the worst return for a superstar all because Popovic/Buford though that Derozan was the best short term solution for them and didn't seem to care about the long term.

This is nonsense. When a superstar publicly demands a trade and tanks his value, the time to trade him is always short. That alone is enough, but it's even worse when he sabotages the team's good name and is an active locker room cancer and all-round distraction even while he's far away in another state. "They could've waited" can be said about every single disgruntled superstar trade that has ever happened. You have to ask yourself why they didn't all wait until the trade deadline of the final season on the player's contract.

[OdomFan]

There's nothing to give a pass on. What's with all the "get a pass" threads lately? None of them make sense.

[leolozon]

So what you're saying is:

1. NBA superstar purposefully tanks his trade value
2. As expected, the team of said superstar gets a lower value asset from trading him
3. The team blew the trade

Ok.

I'm not sure why you want to excuse them, they acted like they had 0 leverage. And then decided that Derozan was great enough that they didn't need to ask for multiple picks.

Did you see the offers that were made? I hope you're not one of those who believe that 2017 Ingram and Deng were supposedly better than what we got from the Raptors. You're aware that one year of an "injured" Kawhi Leonard is not the same as a potential 4 years of him yes? So hopefully you understand how the Spurs didn't have as much leverage as you think.

But I'm not even interested in excusing them. I do not think it was a bad trade given the circumstances, but my point is that it's silly to look at a team that was setup to fail and then talk about their failure like it wasn't expected.
"Why do we give Usian Bolt a pass for not outrunning that cheetah?"

They didn't have to trade him when they did, they could have waited for a better offer, he was still under contract. They didn't have to trade him to Toronto. They got the worst return for a superstar all because Popovic/Buford though that Derozan was the best short term solution for them and didn't seem to care about the long term.

This is nonsense. When a superstar publicly demands a trade and tanks his value, the time to trade him is always short. That alone is enough, but it's even worse when he sabotages the team's good name and is an active locker room cancer and all-round distraction even while he's far away in another state. "They could've waited" can be said about every single disgruntled superstar trade that has ever happened. You have to ask yourself why they didn't all wait until the trade deadline of the final season on the player's contract.

Well I disagree. And Ingram alone was a better option than Derozan, certainly when you factor in long term value.

The reason they decided on that package and not anything else, was because it was probably the better "win now" option they could get and Popovic certainly didn't want to get something that would pay off 3 years down the line. They tried to maximize short term value and did for a year... congrats.

[MrSparkle]

People forgetting that Kawhi had not played normal for more than a season? Injured and sat out the GSW elimination series, then missed almost the entire 17/18 season with a mystery/undiagnosed ailment. He was expiring and damaged. Why the hell would anyone pay for a rental with question-marks about his health? Might as well wait a year. Raptors took a minor risk; the only reason it was a win-win scenario for TOR was because DeRozan proved to be Lebron’s whipping boy. That last sweep was ugly. If Kawhi didn’t work out, it was time to blow up the DeRozan core anyway.

Anyway, they thought LMA had more in the tank. Murray then tore the ACL, which was a huge blow, cause he was looking like the PG version of Kawhi.

The mistake was including Danny Green instead of Patty Mills. I don’t think anyone banked on him playing well, he was in a hard decline. If Dejounte was healthy, he would’ve had a break-out season.

[KobeHas5Rings]

So what you're saying is:

1. NBA superstar purposefully tanks his trade value
2. As expected, the team of said superstar gets a lower value asset from trading him
3. The team blew the trade

Ok.

If you're referring to my OP, clearly that's not what I'm saying.

The Lakers are always under pressure to compete for a Title. They were close to landing LeBron James. They would have given just about anything to get Kawhi Leonard. Supposedly they made a "Godfather offer".

Pop/Buford refused to deal with the Lakers because Pop has a rule about not dealing with the Lakers, not because the Lakers weren't offering a great deal.

So Pop basically made the Spurs worse long term because of his own personal rules.

Where are the Spurs now?

Would you say they are in a great position?

Would you not swap Derozan/Poetl/whoever that draft pick was for e.g. Ingram/Ball/Hart/multiple picks?

[NoZoLakers]

Yes great achievement by Ingram and he still couldn't lead his team to the playoffs which is the definition of an empty stat player.

This was ingram's 4th season, first 3 were on a circus Lakers team.
Derozan didn't make the playoffs till is 5th season and was never the best player on the team.

Isolating Ingram vs. DeRozan is an intellectual exercise, but not rooted in the reality of the deal. It was Ingram (with blood clot questions at the time if I recall the timeline correctly) - not an All-Star then as we requested, Ball and Hart - two players we didn't need as we like the crop we have there, and the weight of Deng's contract - taking up room unnecessary room in our long-planned 2021 cap space.

Now, given all that, is Ingram really worth taking on the extras we neither need nor want to be pulled down by? Suddenly, DeMar, his contract, and his vet presence start looking all the better. You only saddle yourself with all the extras you don't need for a generational talent. That's not Ingram. If Pels fans are happy with him and paying him that money, good for them. We're just as happy not to.

Best to look at the deals on the table and weigh them accordingly.

Ingram did not have blood clot issues than. was during last off season with ad trade n deng couldve been negotiated out of it as la had cap space...bottom line wasnt just lakers, Pop dismissed clippers attempts to trade for Leonard as well

[druggas]

The only problem I see with the trade was that everyone who has been around, knew that Popovich would never trade with the Lakers. With the Lakers out of the running, that brought down the chance to have a little bidding war. Instead it allowed Toronto to scoop San Antonio.

[G R E Y]

This was ingram's 4th season, first 3 were on a circus Lakers team.
Derozan didn't make the playoffs till is 5th season and was never the best player on the team.

Isolating Ingram vs. DeRozan is an intellectual exercise, but not rooted in the reality of the deal. It was Ingram (with blood clot questions at the time if I recall the timeline correctly) - not an All-Star then as we requested, Ball and Hart - two players we didn't need as we like the crop we have there, and the weight of Deng's contract - taking up room unnecessary room in our long-planned 2021 cap space.

Now, given all that, is Ingram really worth taking on the extras we neither need nor want to be pulled down by? Suddenly, DeMar, his contract, and his vet presence start looking all the better. You only saddle yourself with all the extras you don't need for a generational talent. That's not Ingram. If Pels fans are happy with him and paying him that money, good for them. We're just as happy not to.

Best to look at the deals on the table and weigh them accordingly.

Ingram did not have blood clot issues than. was during last off season with ad trade n deng couldve been negotiated out of it as la had cap space...bottom line wasnt just lakers, Pop dismissed clippers attempts to trade for Leonard as well

Yes, thanks for clarifying the blood clot timeline. It was in fact later. But let's play out that hypothetical and assume we would have made that trade - that means the blood clot issue would have arisen on our watch. After the whole #2 debacle, I can only imagine what the optics would have looked like. Plus he missed the rest of the season from March onwards. I'm glad he's made a full recovery and is playing well, but that wouldn't have helped a team that needed stability after two consecutive years of near 200 games missed due to player injury.

As to your other point, making declarations that something easily could have been done isn't lining up with the reality that Deng was part of the package that included BI, then Ball and Hart who we didn't need and pick(s). LAL thought they had leverage and tried to dump Deng on us. That it could have been negotiated out has nothing to do with the fact that it wasn't.

Yes, PATFO rebuffed LAC package of Harris and two first rounders. As I've stated repeatedly, while there's no doubt there was little incentive to deal with LAL, saying that PATFO did themselves in by not taking either package ignores the simple fact that the Spurs sought All Star, prospect, pick. Neither LA team offered that. You know which team did? The team that got #2.

Of course trading him out of conference helped. But that package was neither a Godfather offer nor even what the Spurs sought. The far bigger offer was then offered in earnest for AD - without Deng's contract - after striking out on #2. It wasn't about dismissing offers - it was about getting what was asked for. I'm well aware of DD's limitations, but much prefer Jakob and Keldon Johnson over Ball and Hart in terms of fit and team needs. Ingram is a nice young player, wish him well, but he just wasn't the difference maker for us that LAL wanted him to be, certainly nowhere near big enough to offset taking on the rest of the package for which we had no use.

[Slava]

I still to this day don't understand why they added Danny Green to the deal and did not insist on a project wing like Siakam or Anunoby instead of Jakob Poeltl. Even for superstar players with a foot out the door, Indiana got back Oladipo and Sabonis, New Orleans got the bag from the Lakers and Presti took everything but the fillings from Lawrence Frank and the Clippers.

[EricAnderson]

Why not? The Spurs themselves are happy with the trade. What alternatives on the table were better given the All Star, prospect, pick parameters? DD's coming off the books, Jakob is very valuable defensively for us, and Keldon Johnson is the pick. He's going to be another one of those 'Damn it, Spurs got another one' players. The point here is that people are too quick to let the effects of a deal play out. It takes time to see what that pick can become, how Jakob can help, what we do with the cap space in 2021. These types of pronouncements don't come with viable alternatives given the reality of the parameters sought in the trade. So what do you suggest would have been better and why?

I think the LA deal was better simply because it was for just younger players and would have allowed SA to rebuild and get high picks for a few years and build through the draft.

Right now there a treadmill team who’s not good enough to go anywhere but not bad enough to get a real high pick in hopes of landing a franchise player to build around.

Several posters in this thread have mentioned 'rebuild', 'rebuild sooner / faster', and 'treadmill'. It's important to look at these in the context of how the Spurs approach transition.

First, as a fan I have zero problem with the Spurs trying to go for the record of consecutive playoff streaks. That we tied it with a season in which we had over 200 games missed due to injuries and were able to use our projected starting line-up once in the entire 2017-18 season, followed by one in which we had nearly 200 games missed due to injury is a feat that doesn't get nearly enough acknowledgement. Anyway, it's in the record books forever.

Second, in pragmatic terms, small markets like SA can't really afford to tank or strip down to a full rebuild as the former is no guarantee of success and the latter isn't how the Spurs operate.

Third, people don't seem to understand that this IS the rebuild even as we've tried to remain competitive throughout the past couple of seasons. The Spurs are methodical about developing young guys and simply do not shortchange that process. Rarely, some players get minutes like Timmy who was obviously ready as a rookie or Dejounte who was thrust into a starting role in the playoffs when Tony ruptured his quad. But besides Tony and Manu who played professionally before they got here, most of our draftees have been late first round picks who needed seasoning. Spurs do things at their own pace. So despite some challenging tangents, we're still on the cusp of huge 2021 cap space, with Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Lonnie Walker IV, and Keldon Johnson on the cusp of bigger roles together this season.

As to your comment about trading for just younger players, it's not a matter of youth alone. We had no need for Hart and Ball as we love our guards and have plenty of them. And Ingram, while a fine young talent, isn't a franchise player to build around either. If he were, he'd have a bigger impact on his team winning. A high pick doesn't really guarantee that franchise talent either, but for those can't miss drafts. It's a lot more about a team's development program, and I trust ours implicitly. It's why Vassell is assured of getting the most made of his talent. But we won't throw him out there without some seasoning.

As to the treadmill comment, we have a far younger team with a higher floor and a higher ceiling with tons of cap space in 2021:

Read on Twitter

All four of the vets are off the books at the end of this upcoming season.

So that's

DJ/Patty/Quinn/Tre

Derrick/Lonnie

DeMar (can be 2 or small ball 4 like in the bubble)/Keldon/Devin (2 or 3)

Trey/Rudy/Luka

LMA/Jakob/Drew

This is a more balanced team than in the previous two years, and an almost wholly different one than the one we had three years ago which was heavy with vets. The transition has been happening, we have been restocking youth through the draft, the transition continues to happen, and now with the young guys better developed, they will be given bigger roles. I can't wait to see what they can do, and I'm excited about what we do with our cap space as well. It may be happening slower than people think, perhaps so deliberate that people don't think it's happening, but we're a better, younger, more balanced team with a big surplus to spend soon. Let's see how it plays out. I wouldn't bet against PATFO.

Tanking not guaranteeing anything isn’t a good enough reason as to not do it. No plan guarantees anything.

Without tanking you wouldn’t have gotten Duncan..

[Baski]

So what you're saying is:

1. NBA superstar purposefully tanks his trade value
2. As expected, the team of said superstar gets a lower value asset from trading him
3. The team blew the trade

Ok.

If you're referring to my OP, clearly that's not what I'm saying.

The whole idea of "blowing" a trade where your disgruntled superstar lowers his and the team's stock as low as it can go is silly. The whole premise of the thread makes no sense regardless of which package the Spurs ended up taking.

The Lakers are always under pressure to compete for a Title. They were close to landing LeBron James. They would have given just about anything to get Kawhi Leonard. Supposedly they made a "Godfather offer".

Pop/Buford refused to deal with the Lakers because Pop has a rule about not dealing with the Lakers, not because the Lakers weren't offering a great deal.

The deal was in fact not great. Calling it a "Godfather offer" is more an indicator of the arrogance of the Laker's FO (The same one that got them fined for tampering) thinking the Spurs had to lay down and take what they were offering. GREY has clearly stated what the deal involved multiple times in this thread. It simply was not good enough to satisfy the Spurs needs. Do you not see how insulting it is to include Deng's stretched contract in the deal? Do you not see any non-emotional reason to turn down such a garbage offer? I don't wanna generalize Lakers fans, but this is where the hatred you find so unjustified comes from.
Show me proof that the Lakers offered a haul on the level of what NOP got for AD. As you say, they "would've given anything" right?

So Pop basically made the Spurs worse long term because of his own personal rules.

Where are the Spurs now?

Would you say they are in a great position?

Considering everything that's happened? **** yes we're in a great position. What did you think we were gonna lose our only superstar and go on topping our conference and contending like nothing happened? The Spurs got thrown a big curve ball and they've tried their best to maneuver a way out of it rather than fold and turn into the Suns being led by a mediocre No. 2 pick. You ask "where are the Spurs now?" as if Brandon Ingram was going to get them to a deep PO run this past season. The Spurs are not far from where Ingram would've taken them, that's what they are. What a silly criticism.
Again and again and again I repeat: "championship or tank" is the height of stupidity. Even setting aside the fact that Ingram/Ball/Hart and some picks are not lifting any franchise into championship contention status, thinking that any lesser endeavour is worthless is the dumbest idea you can have in any sport. It's dumb as ****. That's not how championship teams think.
What was the last NBA champion team that was formed by "rebuilding", let alone rebuilding with mediocre talent like Brandon Ingram? Why fault a team for wanting to stay "good" instead of accepting mediocre talent that may still end up mediocre in 3 years?

Would you not swap Derozan/Poetl/whoever that draft pick was for e.g. Ingram/Ball/Hart/multiple picks?

1. No I would not. They are not that much better, if at all for any franchise that cares about being better than an 8th seed.
2. Again, that was not the deal on the table. Refer to Grey's multiple posts on that topic in this thread.

It seems like a developing trend in Spurs-related topics for long time fans to lay out a lot of information that makes blaming the team look stupid, only to be ignored and the same nonsense continuously posted.

[CIN-C-STAR]

In what universe is Deng's massive dead contract, Ingram and a 1st round pick, a "godfather offer"?
Taking on the dead money from Deng's contract alone was worth Ingram and the late 1st round pick.
Let's call it what it was: Kawhi, Uncle Dennis and Magic tried to collude to get Kawhi to LA for cheap. Kawhi was even pictured going to a Dodgers game that summer with some rather nice seats. Just so happens Magic is an owner of the Dodgers.
The Spurs aren't stupid. Uncle Dennis was telling every team not in LA he wouldn't resign there AND refusing to share his medicals, all to tank his trade value. Then Magic came in with his insulting offer that was basically a poo poo platter of questionable prospects and one of the worst contracts in the entire league.
And the Spurs were supposed to just say, "OK you got us, we'll take your terrible offer"? Why? For basketball reasons AND pride, I dont blame them at all.
The real reason the Spurs got screwed was because Uncle Dennis and Magic were engaging in amateur hour BS behind the scened. It's no surprise Magic got fined for tampering, which never happens, and Uncle Dennis is involved in a lawsuit with Kawhi's former agent and got blasted by the Raps organization, a very classy and professional franchise, on his way out the door.
So I'd turn the question around and ask why did they get a pass? Kawhi is a snake and the Lakers organization is living off its prime market and history, and had they not overplayed their hand would likely have the best trio of all time in Lebron, Kawhi and AD.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Further, ingram is a good young player but he just signed a rookie max extension.
Had the Spurs taken that offer they'd be paying Ingram $30 mill a season next year, AND still be paying Luol Deng's contract, lol.
They'd be capped out with basically the same team plus Ingram.
Instead, they'll enter next offseason with max cap space+, AND a good young center entering his prime on a solid value contract.
And they might even get something for DeRozan at the deadline.
I dont think the former scenario is so much better than the latter, and in fact think there are solid arguments that the latter scenario is preferable.
Of course we'll have to wait and see what happens at the deadline and who the Spurs are able to sign next offseason.
That said, I didn't like the deal the Spurs did at the time. I thought including Danny Green without getting OG or Siakam back was too much. I preferred dealing with the Clippers for Gallinari and the #12 & #13 picks, and I would have targeted Shai and Michael Porter Jr.
I can see an argument for something like that, but the Lakers initial offer was a joke and I've no idea why people think it was some home run offer. I think all this "godfather offer" and "Pop won't play nice with us!" stuff was leaked by the Lakers after the fact to make themselves look better to fans after their amateur antics blew up in their face and they got nothing to help Lebron in year one.

[HMFFL]

The Spurs traded Kawhi to a destination that he had zero interest in and it wasn't among the teams on his trade list. Spurs seemed to think they got the last laugh, but Kawhi did, because he led Toronto to a championship. Nice gift for the great fanbase Toronto has.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Spurs sought an All Star, a prospect, and a pick. Only one team met each of these criteria. And that's the team that got #2. Whether #2 had any interest in the destination has nothing to do with it. It wasn't about the last laugh, but about a deal good for the present and the future of the team. To that end, we're better today and going forward.

I disagree, but you do have some nice young talent, and I look forward to watching them develop.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[G R E Y]

The Spurs traded Kawhi to a destination that he had zero interest in and it wasn't among the teams on his trade list. Spurs seemed to think they got the last laugh, but Kawhi did, because he led Toronto to a championship. Nice gift for the great fanbase Toronto has.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Spurs sought an All Star, a prospect, and a pick. Only one team met each of these criteria. And that's the team that got #2. Whether #2 had any interest in the destination has nothing to do with it. It wasn't about the last laugh, but about a deal good for the present and the future of the team. To that end, we're better today and going forward.

I disagree, but you do have some nice young talent, and I look forward to watching them develop.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Ok Why? The parameters for what the Spurs sought are what they are. Neither the Lakers, nor the Clippers, nor the Celtics or whoever fulfilled the three requirements for a trade. Only TO did.

Again, who cares if #2 didn't have TO on his list of preferred destinations? Were we obliged in any way to accommodate him? Why? It's not like the offers from LAL or LAC met the basic requirements anyway. It's prudent to send your star away from the conference, if possible, and it was. That Pop didn't want to deal with LAL or LA in general, or in this case in particular, is not in question. What is, is why would we have sent #2 to a team that did not meet the three requirements? It would have been a stronger case had either LA team met them, but that they did not is on them. And that LAL later gave a bigger offer to NOP indicates that they did not, in fact, make a 'Godfather offer' the Spurs could not refuse.

We've sent other players out to good situations cross conference ie/ Rodman who didn't fit with us. It's not without precedence. If you think the Spurs wanted to screw over #2, fine. But it doesn't mean we didn't take a better deal than what other teams offered. And it doesn't mean the story ends there, so the last laugh narrative is artificial because of all events subsequent to it occurring on a contiuum. And we're better off with Jakob and Keldon Johnson and DD off the books than Ball and Hart (redundant to what we already have) and Ingram as a max player. We have yet to see what JP and KJ turn into with bigger roles, and what we do with 2021 cap space.

It's interesting, though, that #2 going to his preferred destination and it totally imploding isn't also included in the narrative. It's where anyone POV chooses a cut off point, I guess.

It's all part of a continuum, and our story is nowhere near done with respect to the ripple effects of this deal.