NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[infinite11285]

I’m not dancing around anything. Doctors aren’t employed by the State. Here, I’ll prove it through your own words..

The hospital did not choose to fire these employees, it was forced to do so by the state

Ask yourself, who is “it”? Hospitals, right? Thus, [Hospitals] were forced to fire doctors that failed to comply. Right?

It’s apparent you have an issue with disassociating divisions of power due to personal feelings, leading to false declarative statements.

It’s fine, many are struggling with the same issue.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying that because the hospitals had no choice but to fire their employees they're the ones that made the decision? That's like saying it's a prisoner's choice to remain a prisoner because it's his decision to not run and get killed.

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Are hospital staff in NY employed by the State of NY?

Comparing prisoners to hired employees doesn’t make sense.

[Cartuse]

I’m not dancing around anything. Doctors aren’t employed by the State. Here, I’ll prove it through your own words..



Ask yourself, who is “it”? Hospitals, right? Thus, [Hospitals] were forced to fire doctors that failed to comply. Right?

It’s apparent you have an issue with disassociating divisions of power due to personal feelings, leading to false declarative statements.

It’s fine, many are struggling with the same issue.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying that because the hospitals had no choice but to fire their employees they're the ones that made the decision? That's like saying it's a prisoner's choice to remain a prisoner because it's his decision to not run and get killed.

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Are hospital staff employed by the State of NY?

I don't know. I guess in most cases probably not. Could you please tell me what the point is you're trying to make?

Is it that the State policies are not responsible for the lack of personnel that occurred as a result of hospitals complying with their mandates? (Y/N)

[Lunartic]

Comparing apples to oranges.

While I agree there are similarities in your comparison - eg. I agree, the biggest blame goes to the individual for putting themselves at risk of a heart attack for a lifelong poor diet that was an individuals choice. Absolutely true. However, it's not contagious and not the same type of pandemic.

I'm discussing in terms of whether or not a person is responsible for their situation. I understand your point about how contagious covid can be, however - people that have been vaccinated also can spread covid. If we continue with the blaming mentality, why wouldn't we treat people that have been vaxxed but attend indoor parties or don't wear masks which filter out covid?

I just see the devolution and it doesn't end well for anyone. I do understand your point and it's fair but mine was in reference to blaming people for their own misfortune.

Should governments wait until the absolute worst nightmare (every single ICU at full capacity) before mandating vaccines - or do it now in the precautionary stages? All the measures you mentioned here was at the peak nightmare stages of certain cities/states and I believe that would be put back in place, should covid spike again. So, in agreement with those measures, but vaccine mandates are also in the best interest for health and safety reasons.

No, governments should have taken the 1 year + to ensure we have enough infrastructure and resources that we wouldn't run out of ICU beds even in the worst case scenario. My stance is that the govt should not mandate an untested drug in a response to their failing to provide adequate medical resources.

I agree - it is truly human failure that covid related safety precautions became politicized and sides need to be chosen.

The biggest concern here from my observation of a big portion of unvaccinated is how reliable/unreliable their 'research' or reasoning is. For the vast majority of said research / data / facts / evidence, there is tremendous amounts of misinformation that is being used. This is dangerous.

There's poor research or a lack of research on all sides, partially because we don't have the required research to determine the long term safety of the vaccines.

The entire world has been getting mixed messages from their governments. Things like "herd immunity" which have carried humanity through all diseases somehow became a dirty word and the definition was repeatedly changed by government organizations. It used to be that herd immunity could be reached through around 60% of the population getting the virus and recovering. Suddenly, The POTUS Biden is saying we need 98% of people vaccinated. That's hugely inconsistent with modern science.

It's been confusing for everyone and there are no very clear answers. I'm happy to agree to disagree I just think this current discourse is untenable and turns family against family and realgm poster against poster.

If we set the premise that SCIENCE is fact or if people want to argue: SCIENCE is the CLOSEST thing to fact, then we can truly begin a valid discussion about the pro's and con's of this vaccine sticky situation that has engulfed not just US Sports, but the entire world.

I disagree with that premise entirely.

"Science" is not fact. Science is an interpretation of natural phenomena. Consensus is irrelevant when it comes to fact, ironically consensus can easily become the enemy to fact.

When you mix in political gain, monetary gain, outside foreign influence, billion dollar profits, grants, etc it's not unheard of that top scientific officials would choose to lie by omission or tell half-truths.

A good example would be Dr. Fauci, the man considered to be the preeminent advisor to the US gvt on covid. He has repeatedly made incorrect or false statements concerning covid and it's transmissiblility. If we accepted his voice and research as "science" and thus as "fact, we would be in a bad place. He actually said covid was not a concern for the US, he also admitted he misled the US when it comes to masking. All people are fallible and scientists are no different.

I've looked it up but perhaps you know, what percentage of the US needs to be fully vaccinated before all restrictions are ended? The science should be very clear.

[NyKnicks1714]

But you're not being objective at all. You part from the premise that anyone who is vaccine hesitant is wrong, and proceed to explain everything based on that presupposition. You're turning things around

If we're supposed to trust the "experts", then nurses that have been on the frontlines of the Covid pandemic treating hundreds of patients and seeing and hearing about thousands of cases should definitely count as experts. If nurses are vaccine hesitant, then it merits to at least stop and try to see why. Dig into what they're saying, and what their reasoning is.

I have all the respect in the world for nurses. They work as hard as anybody, their work is important, and they don't get much appreciation for it. That said, they're not infectious disease experts whatsoever.

Construction workers are not architects, but I'd still pay attention to what they have to say if they think a building is unsafe to live in.

I don't understand how or why infectious disease experts are the only ones authorized to be skeptic. We're talking about people trained in a very specific, highly specialized area of science. They're not the only authorized voices.

Nurses have DIRECT EXPERIENCE of both covid and vaccine effects. |If we all agree that there's a bunch of disinfo going on, shouldn't we pay more attention to the people that don't get the news from some salesman, but actually from their own direct experience? I just can't wrap my head around why you think it's not even worth considering finding out where they're coming from.

I can't see what makes you think you already know why nurses think that way (they're gullible and silly to the point of misinterpreting their own experience) and then say you have all the respect in the world for them. In my opinion you're onl;y respecting them as far as they agree with the way you think. When they don't, they're either dumb or naive. That's not respect

That construction worker analogy is just awful. It might hold some weight if these nurses worked on the development of the vaccine. And I reiterate, nurses are in no way, shape, or form infectious disease experts nor are they experts on the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. Your last paragraph is nothing more than poor-faith debating. I can still respect someone for the work they do while not respecting or acknowledging the value of their opinion.

But let's entertain your whole nurse argument for a moment, but this time look at the entire picture. I know the anti-vax crowd likes to cherry-pick examples to support their views, but healthcare workers as a whole are vaccinated at a higher rate than the general public. It's a bad argument to begin with, teeters on appeal to authority, but even if you disregard that, it's easily shut down when you look at overall vaccination rates.

[MoneyTalks41890]

I mean if anti-vax folks wore masks, maintained social distancing, facilitated contact tracing, were generally responsible, then we might not need to take these draconian measures. But they don't. Instead the opt to believe the virus isn't real, even on their deathbed. My niece is 4, she can't get vaccinated. I'm done messing around with people, and so is everyone else that has been responsible in their actions and gotten a safe and effective vaccination for themselves, the people around them, and the good of society. The way you know this is all bs is that we have two types of vaccines, MRNA and live culture, and folks rail against both of them, which is just completely incongruent. There are some people with legitimate questions. There are many many others who are malicious, or are being misled by malicious actors, some charlatans, some rival foreign powers that would be more than happy to see the US devolve into sickness and further strife.

[infinite11285]

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

Are you saying that because the hospitals had no choice but to fire their employees they're the ones that made the decision? That's like saying it's a prisoner's choice to remain a prisoner because it's his decision to not run and get killed.

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Are hospital staff employed by the State of NY?

I don't know. I guess in most cases probably not. Could you please tell me what the point is you're trying to make?

Is it that the State policies are not responsible for the lack of personnel that occurred as a result of hospitals complying with their mandates? (Y/N)

The answers is No. The state of NY is not liable nor responsible for employees that lost their jobs as a result of failing to abide by state mandates enforced by their employer.

Khalil argued that medical staff in NY were fired by the State. They also argued mandates to be unconstitutional.

[Cartuse]

The answers is No. The state of NY is not liable nor responsible for employees that lost their jobs as a result of failing to abide by state mandates enforced by their employer.

Khalil argued that medical staff in NY were fired by the State.

Gotcha, so if I'm fried in the electric chair it's not the State, prison or justice system that are responsible for my death but actually the guy pulling the lever.

[infinite11285]

The answers is No. The state of NY is not liable nor responsible for employees that lost their jobs as a result of failing to abide by state mandates enforced by their employer.

Khalil argued that medical staff in NY were fired by the State.

Gotcha, so if I'm fried in the electric chair it's not the State, prison or justice system that are responsible for my death but actually the guy pulling the lever.

That’s another bad analogy that is completely unrelated to how employment laws are codified and enforced.

You’re trying to compare a basketball to the Sun because they’re both round.

[NyKnicks1714]

If a player, or person has problems with vaccines themselves, that is a problem. If the same player/person has problems with this vaccine because of it's efficacy, then there is legitimate concerns that the individual will need addressed. (Due to rushed testing, amd development)

My problem with even my own line of thinking, is that the overwhelming majority of people who don't want this vaccine (in my own tiny subset of data, and people I've seen in videos)don't "believe" in, or trust vaccines to begin with, even with 50+ years of data, and known benefits to humans in preventing some of the worst diseases known to man.

No one wants to be a guinea pig, but vaccines are safe, and that is proven science.

While I agree with some of what you wrote, the COVID vaccines weren't rushed. I've posted links on this before, but the only reasons Moderna and Pfizer were able to get the COVID vaccines out so quickly are that they used technology developed in the 90s (and now the mainstay of all modern vaccines) and built on the vaccine for SARS (related virus) which was first worked on ten+ years ago. Accordingly, there's nothing really new about the making of this vaccine...and all efficacy data I've seen suggests that it does a great job of keeping most people from becoming seriously ill.

(From the RoLo thread, but posting it here)

A few years from now, you'll have people refusing the vaccine with the reasoning that we don't know how it will impact people 10 years down the line. At this point, most vaccine holdouts are just going to be susceptible to whatever new poor reasoning or misinformation is making the rounds.

[Mavrelous]

It’s apparent you have an issue with disassociating divisions of power due to personal feelings, leading to false declarative statements.

It’s fine, many are struggling with the same issue.

I know you are I'm not struggling with this really, it's very clear to me what happened, you on the other hand, have trouble facing the obvious.

Lol ok.

The next time you’re pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that not being able to speed is an infringement upon your constitutional right to choose to speed. Then seek the counsel of your sister for guidance.

See how it goes.

Things are more nuanced than that, you as a lawyer should know.
The point from bringing up Civil Disobedience is precisely to demonstrate that, HDT didn't violate other laws of the land, he did bisobey what he deemed unjust law, which this mandate is.

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk

[enigmatics]

"...... but, but, but you have to do your part to help society!"

When asked why we don't ask others to take greater personal responsibility for their own health so-as to also help lessen the blow on the healthcare system and effects of COVID infection ...... crickets. The cry for a jab is cover up for people who do not understand the nature of risk and how to manage it - especially for something with a 99.8% recovery rate in ages under 70 (98.2% over 70). It's just easier to offload their fear by shouting down people trying to bully them into injectables that were rushed to market - which also carry with them zero legal recourse.

[Cartuse]

That construction worker analogy is just awful. It might hold some weight if these nurses worked on the development of the vaccine. And I reiterate, nurses are in no way, shape, or form infectious disease experts nor are they experts on the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. Your last paragraph is nothing more than poor-faith debating. I can still respect someone for the work they do while not respecting or acknowledging the value of their opinion.

Nurses work on the DEPLOYMENT of the vaccine, and on the CARE of Covid patients and people with vaccine side effects. Analogies don't have to be THE EXACT SAME THING. That wouldn't be an analogy but... the same thing. In this case the analogy was to point that even in cases where people don't have the theoretical knowledge of what they're working with, their practical knowledge can also be valuable. And the nurses have practical knowledge, whether you like it or not.

But let's entertain your whole nurse argument for a moment, but this time look at the entire picture. I know the anti-vax crowd likes to cherry-pick examples to support their views, but healthcare workers as a whole are vaccinated at a higher rate than the general public. It's a bad argument to begin with, teeters on appeal to authority, but even if you disregard that, it's easily shut down when you look at overall vaccination rates.

Healthcare workers being more vaccinated than the general public can be due to a variety of reasons and circumstances that apply to them differently than they apply to the general public. It's either disingenuous or intelectually dishonest to say that "easily shuts down" any argument whatsoever. My brother works in healthcare and he got vaccinated without a choice to opt out. And he got the russian vaccine even BEFORE Russia had approved it. He had no choice and he had to do it. He was a guinea pig "for the greater good".

I don't really understand what you're trying to get to. I never said skeptic nurses are right about anything. All I said is that WE SHOULD LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY, as they're the ones with BY FAR the most PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE with both the pandemic and vaccines. That's all.

[xdrta+]

The answers is No. The state of NY is not liable nor responsible for employees that lost their jobs as a result of failing to abide by state mandates enforced by their employer.

Khalil argued that medical staff in NY were fired by the State.

Gotcha, so if I'm fried in the electric chair it's not the State, prison or justice system that are responsible for my death but actually the guy pulling the lever.

Since "The State" consists of officials who are elected by the voters of that state, it's actually the voters you can blame for being fried. In the same way, voters are responsible for vaccine mandates, and the obvious way to get rid of them is to vote in people who won't put them into laws. Like they do in Texas, Florida, and a bunch of other states. Places where, generally, the pandemic is at the worst.

[infinite11285]

I know you are I'm not struggling with this really, it's very clear to me what happened, you on the other hand, have trouble facing the obvious.

Lol ok.

The next time you’re pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that not being able to speed is an infringement upon your constitutional right to choose to speed. Then seek the counsel of your sister for guidance.

See how it goes.

Things are more nuanced than that, you as a lawyer should know.
The point from bringing up Civil Disobedience is precisely to demonstrate that, HDT didn't violate other laws of the land, he did bisobey what he deemed unjust law, which this mandate is.

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk

HDT didn’t have the legal authority to determine what laws were just and unjust. That’s what you don’t get. The distinction between the two was based on his personal feelings—similar to you—which, again, is not how the law works.

[NyKnicks1714]

That construction worker analogy is just awful. It might hold some weight if these nurses worked on the development of the vaccine. And I reiterate, nurses are in no way, shape, or form infectious disease experts nor are they experts on the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. Your last paragraph is nothing more than poor-faith debating. I can still respect someone for the work they do while not respecting or acknowledging the value of their opinion.

Nurses work on the DEPLOYMENT of the vaccine, and on the CARE of Covid patients and people with vaccine side effects. Analogies don't have to be THE EXACT SAME THING. That wouldn't be an analogy but... the same thing. In this case the analogy was to point that even in cases where people don't have the theoretical knowledge of what they're working with, their practical knowledge can also be valuable. And the nurses have practical knowledge, whether you like it or not.

But let's entertain your whole nurse argument for a moment, but this time look at the entire picture. I know the anti-vax crowd likes to cherry-pick examples to support their views, but healthcare workers as a whole are vaccinated at a higher rate than the general public. It's a bad argument to begin with, teeters on appeal to authority, but even if you disregard that, it's easily shut down when you look at overall vaccination rates.

Healthcare workers being more vaccinated than the general public can be due to a variety of reasons and circumstances that apply to them differently than they apply to the general public. It's either disingenuous or intelectually dishonest to say that "easily shuts down" any argument whatsoever. My brother works in healthcare and he got vaccinated without a choice to opt out. And he got the russian vaccine even BEFORE Russia had approved it. He had no choice and he had to do it. He was a guinea pig "for the greater good".

I don't really understand what you're trying to get to. I never said skeptic nurses are right about anything. All I said is that WE SHOULD LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY, as they're the ones with BY FAR the most PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE with both the pandemic and vaccines. That's all.

I'll listen to what they have to say when they present real and quality data regarding vaccine efficacy and safety. Til then I'll pass on anecdotal evidence, even despite your all-caps writing.

[LightTheBeam]

How long do you think the studies of the over the counter medications or supplements you all take lasted? Just curious. Guarantee your taking something right now that is less studied and has more risks of side effects than the vaccines.

Two wrongs don't make one right. Yes, we're also eating all sorts of processed foods with ingredients that might be very bad for our health. That doesn't mean we should just stop caring and start injecting anything into our bodies just because.

If one honestly wants to understand the skepticism, and not just reinforce the idea that skeptics are idiots, then one must understand the lack of caution that the governments and health agencies are displaying in their communications and (now coercive) measures. You have a virus which is not entirely clear if it's natural or man made, so that is the first pause. Anyone who claims to know it's definitely natural or man made is wrong. We just don't know one way or the other.

Then you have several rushed vaccines which skipped or sped over ordinary protocols, made by companies that were given complete freedom from liability should anything go wrong. That should give us the second pause. One can think that's the only way to get the vaccines fast enough, but then we should ask ourselves what does that imply. And that implies that if the pharmaceutical companies financial wellbeing were at stake, they would take way more precautions to make sure they won't be facing massive repercussions. Well I just don't see how their financial wellbeing merits more precautions than the entire world's population wellbeing. The same precautions should be taken in both cases. If companies can't risk bankruptcy, then we can't transfer that risk into people's health.

Then there's what's happening with the alternative medications. From the start the media has ridiculed all alternative treatments that have been suggested, sometimes outright lying and willfully misinforming, like with the case of Ivermectin, by saying it's only a horse dewormer and not fit for human consumption. That's not only false, but it's also ignoring to report all the cases in which Ivermectin was succesfully used to treat covid, like in India and Argentina. We can discuss the specifics of the science and such, but there's no denying that the media, government and health agencies acted in bad faith. That right there is a massive third pause.

Now think about all those factors keeping in mind that kids as young as 12 are targeted for vaccination, and that efforts are being made for the public to accept an even lower age. Reading this forum you can see some posters believe the next step if all else fails is mass vaccination of kids.

Beariing all this in mind, go and see how HARD governments (of law and thought) are oushing for the people to get vaccinated. It's no longer presented as a choice, but as a threat. If you don't get vaccinated you won't be able to work, simple as that. Try living in a society while not having a job. Just a hint, Covid will be the least of your problems...

If you take all this things into account and really think them through, analyze their implications and what it means, and you still think skeptic people are just plain dumb, then I really don't know what to say. We can discuss science and details ad nauseam, but the truth is that 99.99% of people are not remotely qualified to asses the information they're given and we have no choice but to trust "experts". The problem is we see "experts" from different agencies outright lie (like with Ivermectin) or get things wrong over and over while the narrative keeps changing to adapt to whatever the government's next step is. And on top of that, the "experts" that don't agree with the official narrative (which exist, and are also qualified in their fields) get marginalized and ridiculed.

If all this isn't enough for a person to become suspicious or at least exercise caution, then I don't know what is. Narratives keep changing (we needed 75% vaccinated, now that we're at or close to that number we need everyone it seems), people keep being divided and blamed for all the problems (the unvaxxed are already preemptively labelled as the cause for the new episodes that are yet to happen).

I'm not advocating for anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I'm not telling no one how to live their lives and how to behave with others. There's no "correct thinking" that I'm advocating for people to endorse. I'm just defending everyone's right to think for themselves and to decide for themselves. This is not about people taking a certain action that's affecting others, no matter which way you spin it. This is about people RESUMING their normal existance, which equates to INACTION.

If someone decides my inaction is dangerous to society, then it's up to society to exclude me or eliminate me. If that's what the majority of society wants then so be it. We will have to either re-write our most fundamental laws or decide to ignore them all together. Either way we'll be opening the door to something quite unsavory.

All I'm asking is for everyone to understand where the skepticism comes from to see if we can all understand each other and avoid coming to segregation or direct confrontation, which, alas, benefits no one but those in power.

Amazing post, Cartuse.

It truly is. The rhetoric that anyone who doesn't want to take the covid vaccine is immediately labeled as a conspiracy theorist anti-vaxxer is beyond ridiculous.

I can't say I blame them. Its being shoved down people's throats that even questioning the vaccine makes you lack empathy and care. The average person just regurgitates what they hear from their favorite "news" source.

[xdrta+]

I know you are I'm not struggling with this really, it's very clear to me what happened, you on the other hand, have trouble facing the obvious.

Lol ok.

The next time you’re pulled over for speeding, tell the cop that not being able to speed is an infringement upon your constitutional right to choose to speed. Then seek the counsel of your sister for guidance.

See how it goes.

Things are more nuanced than that, you as a lawyer should know.
The point from bringing up Civil Disobedience is precisely to demonstrate that, HDT didn't violate other laws of the land, he did bisobey what he deemed unjust law, which this mandate is.
Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk

No, you deem it to be an unjust law, as Thoreau deemed taxes to be unjust. Then he accepted the consequences. Just like people will accept the consequences for disobeying what they deem to be an unjust law. Why is that hard to understand?

[enigmatics]

It truly is. The rhetoric that anyone who doesn't want to take the covid vaccine is immediately labeled as a conspiracy theorist anti-vaxxer is beyond ridiculous.

I can't say I blame them. Its being shoved down people's throats that even questioning the vaccine makes you lack empathy and care. The average person just regurgitates what they hear from their favorite "news" source.

It's tribal and it's disgusting to pretend there's no nuance between not wanting a jab for yourself and refuting vaccines for all people. You'd think people would grow up out of that conversation.

[LightTheBeam]

The answers is No. The state of NY is not liable nor responsible for employees that lost their jobs as a result of failing to abide by state mandates enforced by their employer.

Khalil argued that medical staff in NY were fired by the State.

Gotcha, so if I'm fried in the electric chair it's not the State, prison or justice system that are responsible for my death but actually the guy pulling the lever.

Since "The State" consists of officials who are elected by the voters of that state, it's actually the voters you can blame for being fried. In the same way, voters are responsible for vaccine mandates, and the obvious way to get rid of them is to vote in people who won't put them into laws. Like they do in Texas, Florida, and a bunch of other states. Places where, generally, the pandemic is at the worst.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/

NY/NJ/Mass are far worse off than Florida and Texas.

Pretty strange. Considering Florida has been open for business the entire time + has the oldest population you would be expecting them to lead this statistic by a mile.

[Cartuse]

The answers is No. The state of NY is not liable nor responsible for employees that lost their jobs as a result of failing to abide by state mandates enforced by their employer.

Khalil argued that medical staff in NY were fired by the State.

Gotcha, so if I'm fried in the electric chair it's not the State, prison or justice system that are responsible for my death but actually the guy pulling the lever.

That’s another bad analogy that is completely unrelated to how employment laws are codified and enforced.

You’re trying to compare a basketball to the Sun because they’re both round.

Well if we're talking about spheres then that would be a great analogy

What are we talking about here? Responsibility? If by whichever means STATE forces PRIVATE to do their bidding, we can't say PRIVATE is responsible for whichever action STATE is forcing upon them.

Now, if you said that PRIVATE has an option to disobey, and that not doing so means they accept the responsibility, then that would be a different discussion, and it would open up a whole different can of worms that I suspect you're not interested in opening.

But if you're not saying that, and you actually mean it when you say
"The State of NY is not liable nor responsible for employees that lost their jobs as a result of failing to abide by state mandates enforced by their employer"
then I don't think I can add anything useful to this conversation. I think we have different ideas of what "responsible" means.