OT: Bonds & Clemens Miss HOF

[JonFromVA]

I've always been perfectly fine with closing up the hall of fame for a generation. If you can't tell who cheated and who didn't then don't let any of them in, but they do have a business to run.

[SkyHookFTW]

I think it's ridiculous. We all know Bonds took performance enhancing drugs, but so were lots of players, and Bonds technically never even tested positive. To me, Bonds was a HoFer before he even started breaking homerun records.

He admitted under oath that he took PED's.

[shakes0]

They all juiced. Frank, Griffey (despite the laughable narrative that he was the one who was clean (Dude ballooned from 190 lbs to 250 lbs lol) Sosa, Bonds, etc. but so didn’t the pitchers. It’s absurd that any of them are left out when they dominated the era. Especially Bonds and Clemens who both clearly weren’t using for first decade of career and had already had HOF worthy impact by then. It’s all a joke. It’s now the Hall of Very Good not the Hall of Fame

Nope, not Frank Thomas. And he was still one of the greatest hitters to ever play the game.


Some interesting Thomas facts:

9 seasons with 100 runs, 100 walks, 100 RBIs. Only Ruth (11), Gehrig (11) and Bondroids (10) had more.

one of 6 players in MLB history with 500 HR, .300 average, .400 OBP, and .500 SLG. Other 5 are some guys named Babe Ruth, Manny Ramirez, Jimmie Fox, Ted Williams and Mel Ott.

All without cheating. reading this thread it's pretty clear that Frank is the most underrated player of the past 30 years.

[SkyBill40]

tragic. Bonds is the greatest hitter the game has ever seen. but then again the Hall's credibility isn't great in the first place.

This post sums it up , bonds hand eye coordination was best ever

Stats would definitely show otherwise. In his career, Bonds only won the NL batting title... twice. That's not to say he was terrible by any means since his general production is remarkable, be it on the dope or not, but he wasn't superhuman in terms of eye/hand. I do realize that there were other factors in there in terms of him being able to even get a chance to swing at the ball (seeing he had 688 intentional walks in the regular season). No slight per se, but he was a merely average hitter at best.

You want to talk about truly great eye/hand and putting the bat on the ball? Look at ol ' #19 down the I-5. Just saying.

[bebopdeluxe]

Let's be clear - Ortiz did not test postivive for peds. His name was on a list of players that tested positive, but that same list was shown to have multiple false postivies. No information about what Ortiz was supposed to have taken was released. You cannot definitively say that he took roids, without knowing what it is that he was supposed to have taken.
Did he take em? Who knows. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but the difference between Ortiz and Bonds and Clemens is that they did test positive (with info about what they took). Being accused of something doesn't mean that you did it. Also, after that list Papi was tested over and over and never tested postive again - yet he maintained his incredible numbers while obviously being PED free.
Again, I'm not saying that he did or didn't take roids, all I'm saying is that there is a big difference between his case and that of the others.
Oh, and btw, I do think that both Clemmons and Bonds should also be in the Hall

When did bond's test positive? As best I know his name was found on a list with an associated number among balco tests, with no clear chain of command. Is there another test outside of the Balco leak? Cause if that's it...he never failed an MLB drug test. And the lack of chain of command would make that test at least as questionable as Ortiz.

Are you serious? Really?

What 32-year-old human being has their head grow so much that it grew TWO HAT SIZES (in ONE offseason) on vitamins and junk food? Huh?

A little more for you to consider:

BALCO probe

The prosecution stemmed from an investigation into distribution of performance-enhancing drugs by BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, in Burlingame. The lab’s chief executive and several others, including Bonds’ personal trainer, Greg Anderson, were sentenced to prison for drug distribution.

Prosecutors disclosed in 2004 that Bonds had tested positive for steroids. But he told the grand jury he believed the substances Anderson gave him were flaxseed oil and arthritis balm.

Flaxseed oil and arthritis balm? Really, Barry?

Greg Anderson refused to testify against Bonds, choosing to go to prison instead. Hey, Greg - if it was just "flaxseed oil and arthritis balm, why did you choose to go to the big house? Huh?

Watch the E60 ESPN documentary that just came out and then come back to the board and say he didn't juice.

[dhsilv2]

the thing is....Frank did blow the whistle. Did you Slicebread's post on page 1? Frank is the ONLY player who was advocating for all players to be tested as early as 1995. He's also the ONLY player to openly testify for the Mitchell Report. So yes, Frank DID blow the whistle.


Please read Slicebread's post on page 1. He gives a great accounting of how Frank Thomas was the 90s lone crusader against steroids.

I don't think you know what whistle blowing is...

constantly telling anyone who would listen that there should be mandatory testing for all players.
the only player who testified in the Mitchell Report.


I know what whistleblowing means just like I know what semantics mean.

if he's told reports "you know, I don't want to call out names, but I know a lot of players are using steroids" that would have been something. The rest of that is meaningless. As pointed out Lance Armstrong was saying very similar things until the most obvious steroid user ever was finally caught.

[dhsilv2]

Let's be clear - Ortiz did not test postivive for peds. His name was on a list of players that tested positive, but that same list was shown to have multiple false postivies. No information about what Ortiz was supposed to have taken was released. You cannot definitively say that he took roids, without knowing what it is that he was supposed to have taken.
Did he take em? Who knows. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but the difference between Ortiz and Bonds and Clemens is that they did test positive (with info about what they took). Being accused of something doesn't mean that you did it. Also, after that list Papi was tested over and over and never tested postive again - yet he maintained his incredible numbers while obviously being PED free.
Again, I'm not saying that he did or didn't take roids, all I'm saying is that there is a big difference between his case and that of the others.
Oh, and btw, I do think that both Clemmons and Bonds should also be in the Hall

When did bond's test positive? As best I know his name was found on a list with an associated number among balco tests, with no clear chain of command. Is there another test outside of the Balco leak? Cause if that's it...he never failed an MLB drug test. And the lack of chain of command would make that test at least as questionable as Ortiz.

Are you serious? Really?

What 32-year-old human being has their head grow so much that it grew TWO HAT SIZES (in ONE offseason) on vitamins and junk food? Huh?

A little more for you to consider:

BALCO probe

The prosecution stemmed from an investigation into distribution of performance-enhancing drugs by BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, in Burlingame. The lab’s chief executive and several others, including Bonds’ personal trainer, Greg Anderson, were sentenced to prison for drug distribution.

Prosecutors disclosed in 2004 that Bonds had tested positive for steroids. But he told the grand jury he believed the substances Anderson gave him were flaxseed oil and arthritis balm.

Flaxseed oil and arthritis balm? Really, Barry?

Greg Anderson refused to testify against Bonds, choosing to go to prison instead. Hey, Greg - if it was just "flaxseed oil and arthritis balm, why did you choose to go to the big house? Huh?

Watch the E60 ESPN documentary that just came out and then come back to the board and say he didn't juice.

So you're confirming there was no failed MLB test and the one test of note with Balco has questionable chain of command. Nobody is claiming Bonds wasn't using drugs, just like no sane person thinks Ortiz wasn't either. And just like nobody who knew ANYTHING about cycling ever thought Lance Armstrong was clean...but boy oh boy did I know a lot of people with those stupid live strong bracelets who claimed he was clean.

[Marty McFly]

tragic. Bonds is the greatest hitter the game has ever seen. but then again the Hall's credibility isn't great in the first place.

This post sums it up , bonds hand eye coordination was best ever

Stats would definitely show otherwise. In his career, Bonds only won the NL batting title... twice. That's not to say he was terrible by any means since his general production is remarkable, be it on the dope or not, but he wasn't superhuman in terms of eye/hand. I do realize that there were other factors in there in terms of him being able to even get a chance to swing at the ball (seeing he had 688 intentional walks in the regular season). No slight per se, but he was a merely average hitter at best.

You want to talk about truly great eye/hand and putting the bat on the ball? Look at ol ' #19 down the I-5. Just saying.

hitting for average isn't the only measure of a great hitter though; if that were the case then Ted Williams would dwarf both. Respect to Tony though, he is an ATG; may he Rest In Peace.

[SkyBill40]

This post sums it up , bonds hand eye coordination was best ever

Stats would definitely show otherwise. In his career, Bonds only won the NL batting title... twice. That's not to say he was terrible by any means since his general production is remarkable, be it on the dope or not, but he wasn't superhuman in terms of eye/hand. I do realize that there were other factors in there in terms of him being able to even get a chance to swing at the ball (seeing he had 688 intentional walks in the regular season). No slight per se, but he was a merely average hitter at best.

You want to talk about truly great eye/hand and putting the bat on the ball? Look at ol ' #19 down the I-5. Just saying.

hitting for average isn't the only measure of a great hitter though; if that were the case then Ted Williams would dwarf both. Respect to Tony though, he is an ATG; may he Rest In Peace.

I'm well aware of the fact that hitting for average isn't the end all or be all of hitting; however, it DOES say about a player's ability to hit the ball and put it in play. Bonds is a solid hitter with a lot more power than Gwynn. Gywnn hit for the purpose of getting on base and giving the team an opportunity to score. Bonds was more about that when he was younger and more active in general, but he was never a great hitter for general hitting's sake. Once he turned into a power guy and it was going long, striking out, or being walked intentionally, that changed things for Bonds on the whole. I have never been a fan of Bonds but do understand the point of those who are as his numbers are pretty damned insane.

It's a shame he chose to cheat. He made that choice directly and obviously. It's what has kept him out and will likely keep him out forever.

[jokeboy86]

Let's not forget how much of the joke the Mitchell Report was when no Red Sox players were on the list. A list by the author who just happened to be a director of the Red Sox. Gimme a break.

[KrAzY3]

I'm all for them not getting in. They made their choices and now they're paying for them, that's life. The only thing I don't understand is Ortiz getting in, since he was also juicing.

Not only that but Schilling who has a better WAR and is every bit as big a World Series doesn't get in.

It is a popularity contest, not judged on the merits of what they did on the field.

[Michael Bradley]

Another thing to keep in mind about Bonds is that he holds both the single season home run record and the all-time home run record which he took from one of the most beloved players in the sport (Hank Aaron). He got both of those marks after the alleged steroid use began. Baseball more than any other sport is very protective of its records. The fact that Bonds holds two of the most sacred records in the game all while juicing is something I'm sure a lot of writers took into account when not voting for him. When you mix all of that with the fact that Bonds, by most accounts, was not exactly the kindest person off the field, and it's a recipe to be blackballed when the voting is as subjective and biased as it is.

By comparison, Ortiz (assuming his positive test was legitimate) was kind of a harmless player. He didn't break any records, he just had an amazing career and was one of the most likable players in the league. They chose to overlook the steroid allegations because of that. The voting needs to change, or more likely, the older voters need to be phased out for the younger ones who are more likely to judge baseball players without all the BS about morality, but unfortunately Bonds and Clemens won't get to benefit from the voter turnover.

I can see the logic in not wanting to reward PED users, but ultimately, you have to be able to distinguish between greatness and steroid-aided performance. Bonds is a Hall of Famer. Sosa without steroids probably isn't, for example.

[bebopdeluxe]

When did bond's test positive? As best I know his name was found on a list with an associated number among balco tests, with no clear chain of command. Is there another test outside of the Balco leak? Cause if that's it...he never failed an MLB drug test. And the lack of chain of command would make that test at least as questionable as Ortiz.

Are you serious? Really?

What 32-year-old human being has their head grow so much that it grew TWO HAT SIZES (in ONE offseason) on vitamins and junk food? Huh?

A little more for you to consider:

BALCO probe

The prosecution stemmed from an investigation into distribution of performance-enhancing drugs by BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, in Burlingame. The lab’s chief executive and several others, including Bonds’ personal trainer, Greg Anderson, were sentenced to prison for drug distribution.

Prosecutors disclosed in 2004 that Bonds had tested positive for steroids. But he told the grand jury he believed the substances Anderson gave him were flaxseed oil and arthritis balm.

Flaxseed oil and arthritis balm? Really, Barry?

Greg Anderson refused to testify against Bonds, choosing to go to prison instead. Hey, Greg - if it was just "flaxseed oil and arthritis balm, why did you choose to go to the big house? Huh?

Watch the E60 ESPN documentary that just came out and then come back to the board and say he didn't juice.

So you're confirming there was no failed MLB test and the one test of note with Balco has questionable chain of command. Nobody is claiming Bonds wasn't using drugs, just like no sane person thinks Ortiz wasn't either. And just like nobody who knew ANYTHING about cycling ever thought Lance Armstrong was clean...but boy oh boy did I know a lot of people with those stupid live strong bracelets who claimed he was clean.

Who the f cares about Armstrong? He was a juicer too.

We are talking about Barry Bonds.

And your semantic argument is that "oh, Bonds never failed a MLB drug test"? Even though FEDERAL PROSECUTORS disclosed that he tested positive in 2004 (YOU CAN"T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT), and his personal trainer WENT TO JAIL instead of testifying against Bonds?

Whatever, bro. You are entitled to your opinion. I am just glad the juicer isn't in the HOF.

[Pharmcat]

This post sums it up , bonds hand eye coordination was best ever

Stats would definitely show otherwise. In his career, Bonds only won the NL batting title... twice. That's not to say he was terrible by any means since his general production is remarkable, be it on the dope or not, but he wasn't superhuman in terms of eye/hand. I do realize that there were other factors in there in terms of him being able to even get a chance to swing at the ball (seeing he had 688 intentional walks in the regular season). No slight per se, but he was a merely average hitter at best.

You want to talk about truly great eye/hand and putting the bat on the ball? Look at ol ' #19 down the I-5. Just saying.

hitting for average isn't the only measure of a great hitter though; if that were the case then Ted Williams would dwarf both. Respect to Tony though, he is an ATG; may he Rest In Peace.

Not sure if that guy trolling ; .444 career obp says it all

[dhsilv2]

Are you serious? Really?

What 32-year-old human being has their head grow so much that it grew TWO HAT SIZES (in ONE offseason) on vitamins and junk food? Huh?

A little more for you to consider:

BALCO probe

The prosecution stemmed from an investigation into distribution of performance-enhancing drugs by BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, in Burlingame. The lab’s chief executive and several others, including Bonds’ personal trainer, Greg Anderson, were sentenced to prison for drug distribution.

Prosecutors disclosed in 2004 that Bonds had tested positive for steroids. But he told the grand jury he believed the substances Anderson gave him were flaxseed oil and arthritis balm.

Flaxseed oil and arthritis balm? Really, Barry?

Greg Anderson refused to testify against Bonds, choosing to go to prison instead. Hey, Greg - if it was just "flaxseed oil and arthritis balm, why did you choose to go to the big house? Huh?

Watch the E60 ESPN documentary that just came out and then come back to the board and say he didn't juice.

So you're confirming there was no failed MLB test and the one test of note with Balco has questionable chain of command. Nobody is claiming Bonds wasn't using drugs, just like no sane person thinks Ortiz wasn't either. And just like nobody who knew ANYTHING about cycling ever thought Lance Armstrong was clean...but boy oh boy did I know a lot of people with those stupid live strong bracelets who claimed he was clean.

Who the f cares about Armstrong? He was a juicer too.

We are talking about Barry Bonds.

And your semantic argument is that "oh, Bonds never failed a MLB drug test"? Even though FEDERAL PROSECUTORS disclosed that he tested positive in 2004 (YOU CAN"T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT), and his personal trainer WENT TO JAIL instead of testifying against Bonds?

Whatever, bro. You are entitled to your opinion. I am just glad the juicer isn't in the HOF.

If you are missing the point then don't even comment. Ortiz was an obvious users of PED's and his own comments effectively are him saying "sure I used them but I didn't know cause I don't know what androgen means". Nearly all athletes at some point use some type of PED. People acting like this is uncommon is just baffling to me. You sound like the some type to wear those live strong bracelets and was shocked when Lance Amrstrong turned out to be on steroids despite there being no humanly possible way he wasn't.

If there were a 100% for sure test to find out which professional athletes never used anything, that list would not only be shockingly short, but odds are 99% of the teams would require you to google them to even figure out who they are.

[SkyBill40]

Not sure if that guy trolling ; .444 career obp says it all

To whom is this comment directed? Me or the other guy in it? OBP includes walks. If we're talking purely hits, those would need to be excluded.

[bebopdeluxe]

So you're confirming there was no failed MLB test and the one test of note with Balco has questionable chain of command. Nobody is claiming Bonds wasn't using drugs, just like no sane person thinks Ortiz wasn't either. And just like nobody who knew ANYTHING about cycling ever thought Lance Armstrong was clean...but boy oh boy did I know a lot of people with those stupid live strong bracelets who claimed he was clean.

Who the f cares about Armstrong? He was a juicer too.

We are talking about Barry Bonds.

And your semantic argument is that "oh, Bonds never failed a MLB drug test"? Even though FEDERAL PROSECUTORS disclosed that he tested positive in 2004 (YOU CAN"T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT), and his personal trainer WENT TO JAIL instead of testifying against Bonds?

Whatever, bro. You are entitled to your opinion. I am just glad the juicer isn't in the HOF.

If you are missing the point then don't even comment. Ortiz was an obvious users of PED's and his own comments effectively are him saying "sure I used them but I didn't know cause I don't know what androgen means". Nearly all athletes at some point use some type of PED. People acting like this is uncommon is just baffling to me. You sound like the some type to wear those live strong bracelets and was shocked when Lance Amrstrong turned out to be on steroids despite there being no humanly possible way he wasn't.

If there were a 100% for sure test to find out which professional athletes never used anything, that list would not only be shockingly short, but odds are 99% of the teams would require you to google them to even figure out who they are.

I think if you think 99% of MLB ballplayers were using before the Ken Caminiti/SI story broke, I would say you are wrong.

And stop trying to make me out as some kind of Lance Armstrong supporter who was shocked - SHOCKED, I SAY - that he was jucing. I never wore one of those wristbands, and I was never a fanboy of him. He always came off as a smug prick. just like Bonds.

[dhsilv2]

Who the f cares about Armstrong? He was a juicer too.

We are talking about Barry Bonds.

And your semantic argument is that "oh, Bonds never failed a MLB drug test"? Even though FEDERAL PROSECUTORS disclosed that he tested positive in 2004 (YOU CAN"T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT), and his personal trainer WENT TO JAIL instead of testifying against Bonds?

Whatever, bro. You are entitled to your opinion. I am just glad the juicer isn't in the HOF.

If you are missing the point then don't even comment. Ortiz was an obvious users of PED's and his own comments effectively are him saying "sure I used them but I didn't know cause I don't know what androgen means". Nearly all athletes at some point use some type of PED. People acting like this is uncommon is just baffling to me. You sound like the some type to wear those live strong bracelets and was shocked when Lance Amrstrong turned out to be on steroids despite there being no humanly possible way he wasn't.

If there were a 100% for sure test to find out which professional athletes never used anything, that list would not only be shockingly short, but odds are 99% of the teams would require you to google them to even figure out who they are.

I think if you think 99% of MLB ballplayers were using before the Ken Caminiti/SI story broke, I would say you are wrong.

And stop trying to make me out as some kind of Lance Armstrong supporter who was shocked - SHOCKED, I SAY - that he was jucing. I never wore one of those wristbands, and I was never a fanboy of him. He always came off as a smug prick. just like Bonds.

I said all professional athletes. I didn't say MLB only. And from that era yes 100% it was 99%. Steroids were literally over the counter and accessible even to high school kids at the time without any parental assistance beyond they weren't exactly cheap. use today might be down as again, kids today have to at least do some Grey market stuff to get SARMs, which are also perfectly legal to buy.

And while those OTC drugs were less effective than the controlled stuff (more dangerous believe it or not), they were sure as HECK effective, and and this is a BIG and. While drugs do leave your system and some of the results do go away...you 100% do keep gains from drug use. Going off them might let you pass tests, but you'll be benefiting for years to come from the plateau you broke on them.

But again, we're back to my point was that Bond's testing was exactly the same as Ortiz. Just because Ortiz wasn't the face or one of the faces of the topic doesn't make him any less an obvious and unquestionable user. I can't help you if you're confused by that.

[SkyBill40]

I said all professional athletes. I didn't say MLB only. And from that era yes 100% it was 99%. Steroids were literally over the counter and accessible even to high school kids at the time without any parental assistance beyond they weren't exactly cheap. use today might be down as again, kids today have to at least do some Grey market stuff to get SARMs, which are also perfectly legal to buy.

Provide your evidence to support the claim you just made. Burden of proof is on you and no one else. While there may have been abuse going on to levels far further reaching than what came to light, to throw out a definitive as you have is utterly absurd and worthless without empirical evidence that can be plainly and easily cited.

[queridiculo]

I do think that arguably the best player in the history of their sport should have made the Hall Of Fame.

Cheaters don't belong, sorry.

The selective enforcement is another story, but I don't particularly mind those guys being made examples.