Can a case be made that Larry Bird was the GOAT ?

[Fencer reregistered]

Part of the argument for Bird is that elite passing was simply more important in eras of lousy spacing.

[Ayatollahmugsy]

Lebron's peak seasons kind of blow Bird's peak seasons out of the water. 30-9-7 as a 23 year old is just insane and nothing Bird did comes close.

Bird had years of 28.7-10.5-6.6, 28.1-9.2-7.6 and 29.9-9.3-6.1. I'd call that close (and LeBron averaged 7.9 rebounds that year, not 9). I'd rank LeBron ahead of Bird, too, but Bird's peak was as impressive as anyone other than Wilt or MJ.

[SNPA]

Lebron's peak seasons kind of blow Bird's peak seasons out of the water. 30-9-7 as a 23 year old is just insane and nothing Bird did comes close.

Prime KD and Lebron were also far more efficient than Prime Bird. In Bird's best seasons (30 and 31 years old) he had TS+ of 113 and 114. For his career, Bird's TS+ is a fairly pedestrian 105. Other than his 19 year old rookie season, every single one of KD's seasons had better TS+ than 105. TS+ of 114 would be the 9th most efficient season in KD's career so far.

So you pick 5-6 Durant seasons over Bird's peak because he's a better scorer? Bird's impact didn't come from his scoring or efficiency, do you have Adrian Dantley over Bird as well?

Where did Bird's impact come from, then? From his average handles? His mediocre defense? His inability to draw fouls? From his scoring average dipping whenever playoffs came around and teams started to play hard?

In any case there is simply no argument for Bird's peak as being GOAT material, and only way people justify Bird's place in the top 10 is by referring to some mystical magical intangibles that no one can point to, and which guys like Kareem or Magic or Duncan apparently didn't have even though they found just as much or more team success. I wonder what that intangible something is?

Hard to pack so much wrong in one post.

Mediocre defense? How many mediocre defenders you see on this list?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_yearly.html

I don’t have time for the rest of the bad. Watch the video 70’s fan gave you.

[BK_2020]

Bird had years of 28.7-10.5-6.6, 28.1-9.2-7.6 and 29.9-9.3-6.1. I'd call that close (and LeBron averaged 7.9 rebounds that year, not 9). I'd rank LeBron ahead of Bird, too, but Bird's peak was as impressive as anyone other than Wilt or MJ.

Giannis had years of 29.5-13.6-5.6, 28-11-5.9, 29-11-6, and he plays 30 minutes per game, not 40 like Bird did in his peak. Would you still argue that Bird's peak is as impressive as anyone other than Wilt or MJ? By the way, Giannis draws 4 defenders on offense and defends like he's 4 guys on defense.

[CobraCommander]

From 83 to 87 yes....the problem was his 13 years included those years with that bad back

I would say Bird is one of the few people that if he played today would be even better than back when he played...and hate me for this...I think magic would be worse

[VanWest82]

Bird's defense has always been an interesting topic for me. Granted, I didn't start watching NBA until mid 80s when Bird was already arguably past his defensive prime, but I never thought he was a great defender. This is also born out in the limited RAPM data we have.

79/80: 545 defensive possessions, -2.94 DRAPM
84/85: 3974 defensive possessions, -0.89 DRAPM
87/88: 3557 defensive possessions, -3.07 DRAPM

[Slim Charless]

From 83 to 87 yes....the problem was his 13 years included those years with that bad back

I would say Bird is one of the few people that if he played today would be even better than back when he played...and hate me for this...I think magic would be worse

Magic would be a better passing Ben Simmons-who isn't scared to shoot. Come on now. Larry would be a better shooting but less athletic version of Lamar Odom imo if they both played nowadays.

[Slim Charless]

BTW whoever TS is, he should've made this a poll so we could see what RealGM thinks.

[SNPA]

From 83 to 87 yes....the problem was his 13 years included those years with that bad back

I would say Bird is one of the few people that if he played today would be even better than back when he played...and hate me for this...I think magic would be worse

Magic would be a better passing Ben Simmons-who isn't scared to shoot. Come on now. Larry would be a better shooting but less athletic version of Lamar Odom imo if they both played nowadays.

Lamar Odom. Unbelievable. Can we get an ignore button?

[BostonCouchGM]

Lebron's peak seasons kind of blow Bird's peak seasons out of the water. 30-9-7 as a 23 year old is just insane and nothing Bird did comes close.

Prime KD and Lebron were also far more efficient than Prime Bird. In Bird's best seasons (30 and 31 years old) he had TS+ of 113 and 114. For his career, Bird's TS+ is a fairly pedestrian 105. Other than his 19 year old rookie season, every single one of KD's seasons had better TS+ than 105. TS+ of 114 would be the 9th most efficient season in KD's career so far.

So you pick 5-6 Durant seasons over Bird's peak because he's a better scorer? Bird's impact didn't come from his scoring or efficiency, do you have Adrian Dantley over Bird as well?

Where did Bird's impact come from, then? From his average handles? His mediocre defense? His inability to draw fouls? From his scoring average dipping whenever playoffs came around and teams started to play hard?

In any case there is simply no argument for Bird's peak as being GOAT material, and only way people justify Bird's place in the top 10 is by referring to some mystical magical intangibles that no one can point to, and which guys like Kareem or Magic or Duncan apparently didn't have even though they found just as much or more team success. I wonder what that intangible something is?

you're really bad at this. Maybe sit this one out?

[CobraCommander]

From 83 to 87 yes....the problem was his 13 years included those years with that bad back

I would say Bird is one of the few people that if he played today would be even better than back when he played...and hate me for this...I think magic would be worse

Magic would be a better passing Ben Simmons-who isn't scared to shoot. Come on now. Larry would be a better shooting but less athletic version of Lamar Odom imo if they both played nowadays.

[Slim Charless]

From 83 to 87 yes....the problem was his 13 years included those years with that bad back

I would say Bird is one of the few people that if he played today would be even better than back when he played...and hate me for this...I think magic would be worse

Magic would be a better passing Ben Simmons-who isn't scared to shoot. Come on now. Larry would be a better shooting but less athletic version of Lamar Odom imo if they both played nowadays.

Lamar Odom. Unbelievable. Can we get an ignore button?

Lamar Odom was a fantastic player back in his day. You obviously don't remember how good he was when fully engaged. 1 of the keys to those championship LAL teams.....

[CobraCommander]

From 83 to 87 yes....the problem was his 13 years included those years with that bad back

I would say Bird is one of the few people that if he played today would be even better than back when he played...and hate me for this...I think magic would be worse

Magic would be a better passing Ben Simmons-who isn't scared to shoot. Come on now. Larry would be a better shooting but less athletic version of Lamar Odom imo if they both played nowadays.

Lamar Odom. Unbelievable. Can we get an ignore button?

Lamars mom would disagree with this post

[CobraCommander]

Magic would be a better passing Ben Simmons-who isn't scared to shoot. Come on now. Larry would be a better shooting but less athletic version of Lamar Odom imo if they both played nowadays.

Lamar Odom. Unbelievable. Can we get an ignore button?

Lamar Odom was a fantastic player back in his day. You obviously don't remember how good he was when fully engaged. 1 of the keys to those championship LAL teams.....

And you think Lamar is a Larry Bird level player...really...ok dude

[a8bil]

Tell me this...what did Bird do that was the best ever? That even to this day, you say: "xxx is good at yyyy, but Bird was the best ever." Bird is a legit top 10 player because of his overall excellence in the game and high BBIQ, but I don't see him as GOAT without being able to pinpoint what he was the GOAT at.

[Slim Charless]

Lamar Odom. Unbelievable. Can we get an ignore button?

Lamar Odom was a fantastic player back in his day. You obviously don't remember how good he was when fully engaged. 1 of the keys to those championship LAL teams.....

And you think Lamar is a Larry Bird level player...really...ok dude

Nowadays his lack of foot speed and lateral movement would nerf him on the defensive end. He'd be hunted on switches relentlessly and while he was a very smart player, there are plenty of smart guys walking around in the league. He was a very good rebounder so that's translates and he's 6'9 so, again he could bang when needed.

That said, his speed would cause problems for his team. Imagine him trying to cover Ja on a switch, or when nightmare SFs like OG or Mikal Bridges lock him? Dudes like that didn't really exist back in the 80s. How would he have done in a matchup VS young (Miami) LeBron?

It's not hate, just facts.

[SNPA]

Lamar Odom was a fantastic player back in his day. You obviously don't remember how good he was when fully engaged. 1 of the keys to those championship LAL teams.....

And you think Lamar is a Larry Bird level player...really...ok dude

Nowadays his lack of foot speed and lateral movement would nerf him on the defensive end. He'd be hunted on switches relentlessly and while he was a very smart player, there are plenty of smart guys walking around in the league. He was a very good rebounder so that's translates and he's 6'9 so, again he could bang when needed.

That said, his speed would cause problems for his team. Imagine him trying to cover Ja on a switch, or when nightmare SFs like OG or Mikal Bridges lock him? Dudes like that didn't really exist back in the 80s. How would he have done in a matchup VS young (Miami) LeBron?

It's not hate, just facts.

I guess this SF didn’t exist?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkido01.html


Hunting Bird would fail. You’d piss him off. It’d be much better to put the guy he was defending in the far corner and hope he doesn’t come across and steal a pass.

[KrAzY3]

I think you can argue that in his prime Bird was an equal to LeBron.

Then you get into the notion of whether or not longevity really should be a factor in determining greatness, or if simply being great is the quality to look for in which case Bird darn sure was great.

[Slim Charless]

And you think Lamar is a Larry Bird level player...really...ok dude

Nowadays his lack of foot speed and lateral movement would nerf him on the defensive end. He'd be hunted on switches relentlessly and while he was a very smart player, there are plenty of smart guys walking around in the league. He was a very good rebounder so that's translates and he's 6'9 so, again he could bang when needed.

That said, his speed would cause problems for his team. Imagine him trying to cover Ja on a switch, or when nightmare SFs like OG or Mikal Bridges lock him? Dudes like that didn't really exist back in the 80s. How would he have done in a matchup VS young (Miami) LeBron?

It's not hate, just facts.

I guess this SF didn’t exist?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkido01.html


Hunting Bird would fail. You’d piss him off. It’d be much better to put the guy he was defending in the far corner and hope he doesn’t come across and steal a pass.

2 things:

-Yes Nique was there and he used to cook the Celts, so I'm not sure what your point was. Now, Bird also would also drop numbers on ATL as well but that leads me to me other point....

-I'm talking about defense. Mikal, Ben Simmons, Marcus Smart and OG would be nightmares for Larry. The length and speed/strength those guys for example have would be a nightmare.

You need to think of this in terms of switching. Teams didn't do that back in the 80s....

For example if Boston played the Suns, Mikal would have chief priority for Bird, but the Celts would switch and hunt for Booker maybe. PHX would counter by trying to get Ayton out on him. Do you think Bird is taking Ayton off the dribble? I'm not sure and I'm also not sure that he can just shoot over him as 7 footers that can leap out and take wings/guards didn't happen back in 84.

It's not his faut as a lot of guys would have trouble handling the speed and pace of today's game. You can't hide slow players in the playoffs. Look what happened to Rudy Gobert...3 time DPOTY and the Clips cooked him last summer. You think Bird is gonna handle the likes of PG13/Kawhi or Trae/Dame (on switches) easily? Not likely.

[Fencer reregistered]

Wrong thread