Tatum VS Luka

[Drax]

Spoiler:

Career eFG%, Luka 52.8, Tatum 52.5, Luka scoring much more. When you compare 3-pts %, you must compare difficulty of shots and volume. Luka career 3pt attempts are 8.2 vs Tatum's 5.9.

Bottom line is that Luka is scoring 5.5 points more in his career with better eFG% and creating everything alone. I would say better scorer and shooter.

If we look at career numbers, what you said we should, the difference between them is enormous, Luka basically much better in everything, being 1 year younger and having big room for improvement with his conditioning.

Ok, then. I'm tapping out.

[SelfishPlayer]

This has been discussed in the media for several seasons now. The people who chose Tatum I thought were wrong by a large degree. But with this playoff series against Durant, Tatum looks like the better overall player and who you would want to build a team with. There is no shortage of guards that can get you 30 if you put the ball in their hands. Luka gets in the way of that guard because that's his role and then some. Tatum can play with that guard. Tatum can play with Luka. Luka can't play with Luka! Look at how well Tyrese Haliburton plays without D. Fox. Haliburton and Luka can't play to their best together. Tatum can be Tatum no matter who is dominating the ball. That's rare.

Tell that to Donovan Mitchell.
First give him Jaylen Brown and then we'll see how Luka plays with another star. Tatum is being Tatum, because he's not a playmaker. If you give him the ball all the time, he'll just shoot a bunch of times himself. Luka actually assists other people, so he won't be the only one scoring. And Tatum needs other people to assist him much more than Doncic needs them. Maybe also that is the reason why Tatum doesn't hold the ball as much, because he would just get an inefficient shot...

And THJ was completely fine playing next to Doncic... Got a bunch of free points from him, nice contract (too big for him) and he could play iso 1 on 1 all the time. Brunson only suddenly became much more better player. In January he wasn't yet as good as he is right now.

You can also say that DFS thrives much more next to Doncic. And he wouldn't get not nearly as many open 3 pointers next to Tatum. So perhaps Tatum does allow other star to have more of the ball in his hands, but for other rotational players, like Powell, Bullock, DFS, Kleber they would much rather play with Doncic than with Tatum. Just look at how many open points Gobert gets from Mitchell, before critizing Doncic from holding the ball so much.

Not only can Tatum produce with a ball handler but Tatum can also produce with another all star wing in Jaylen Brown. Brunson can't be his best with Luka and Porzingis can't be his best with Luka. We know it's Luka.

[islandkid12]

Luka still has the edge on JT, as I think he's a tad more talented but I honestly believe Tatum works harder than him and kind of "wants it" more than him.

Luka's pretty commonly out of shape and somewhat injury prone - I wouldn't be mad if that's enough for folks to side with Tatum.

Genetics might also help though as I think that considering the way their bodies are built, even if he took off seasons as lightly as Luka,JayTat would still probably be in far better shape and gain much less fat than Luka.

I can agree with this. Their metabolisms, etc, can definitely play a role.

[SelfishPlayer]

This has been discussed in the media for several seasons now. The people who chose Tatum I thought were wrong by a large degree. But with this playoff series against Durant, Tatum looks like the better overall player and who you would want to build a team with. There is no shortage of guards that can get you 30 if you put the ball in their hands. Luka gets in the way of that guard because that's his role and then some. Tatum can play with that guard. Tatum can play with Luka. Luka can't play with Luka! Look at how well Tyrese Haliburton plays without D. Fox. Haliburton and Luka can't play to their best together. Tatum can be Tatum no matter who is dominating the ball. That's rare.

Why would Luka play with Luka? Give Luka M.Bridges, few 3&D players and Ayton and they will dominate Nba for a decade. They might have won it this year, if they had decent C.

Nets were a mess the whole season and we're talking here like they were contenders? Bad defensive team too. You're forgetting 1 thing, Luka has dominated and won against more or less everyone in MVP conversation. 2x against Tatum.

If it didn't happen in the postseason it didn't happen.

[SelfishPlayer]

This has been discussed in the media for several seasons now. The people who chose Tatum I thought were wrong by a large degree. But with this playoff series against Durant, Tatum looks like the better overall player and who you would want to build a team with. There is no shortage of guards that can get you 30 if you put the ball in their hands. Luka gets in the way of that guard because that's his role and then some. Tatum can play with that guard. Tatum can play with Luka. Luka can't play with Luka! Look at how well Tyrese Haliburton plays without D. Fox. Haliburton and Luka can't play to their best together. Tatum can be Tatum no matter who is dominating the ball. That's rare.

Yeah I disagree with that. Luka is not James Harden off the ball where he stands with his hands on his hips. He can spot up, post up, set screens for others. You don't want Luka playing off the ball much because he's an elite playmaker. Putting the ball in anyone else's hands while Luka is on the floor just makes your offense worse, that's why the Mavs don't do it often.

Ball dominant players that can get you 25+ points on ball are not difficult to find. It's hard to find guys that can get you 25+ off ball with zero need to facilitate. Why can't Luka allow someone else to get the 9 assists? For the same reason Westbrook couldnt or even Harden. They become lessor players individually.

[Gimli]

This has been discussed in the media for several seasons now. The people who chose Tatum I thought were wrong by a large degree. But with this playoff series against Durant, Tatum looks like the better overall player and who you would want to build a team with. There is no shortage of guards that can get you 30 if you put the ball in their hands. Luka gets in the way of that guard because that's his role and then some. Tatum can play with that guard. Tatum can play with Luka. Luka can't play with Luka! Look at how well Tyrese Haliburton plays without D. Fox. Haliburton and Luka can't play to their best together. Tatum can be Tatum no matter who is dominating the ball. That's rare.

Tell that to Donovan Mitchell.
First give him Jaylen Brown and then we'll see how Luka plays with another star. Tatum is being Tatum, because he's not a playmaker. If you give him the ball all the time, he'll just shoot a bunch of times himself. Luka actually assists other people, so he won't be the only one scoring. And Tatum needs other people to assist him much more than Doncic needs them. Maybe also that is the reason why Tatum doesn't hold the ball as much, because he would just get an inefficient shot...

And THJ was completely fine playing next to Doncic... Got a bunch of free points from him, nice contract (too big for him) and he could play iso 1 on 1 all the time. Brunson only suddenly became much more better player. In January he wasn't yet as good as he is right now.

You can also say that DFS thrives much more next to Doncic. And he wouldn't get not nearly as many open 3 pointers next to Tatum. So perhaps Tatum does allow other star to have more of the ball in his hands, but for other rotational players, like Powell, Bullock, DFS, Kleber they would much rather play with Doncic than with Tatum. Just look at how many open points Gobert gets from Mitchell, before critizing Doncic from holding the ball so much.

Not only can Tatum produce with a ball handler but Tatum can also produce with another all star wing in Jaylen Brown. Brunson can't be his best with Luka and Porzingis can't be his best with Luka. We know it's Luka.

It is the only way Tatum can efficiently produce. With another ball handler or another star.

Porzingis can't be his best with anyone. The guy is a ball stopper... Wants to touch the ball a lot, want to play in the low post, wants to play in the middle post, doesn't want to just spread the floor on the 3point line... Plus he's missing what 50% of games and when he comes back he's all rusty.

Doncic only started playing with another ball handler in late December. For the first time in his career. THJ was iso only and Curry wasn't good enough as a playmaker anyway. Also, Brunson you see right now is much better than Brunson in January or at least much better integrated in the team... Also the Mavs actually did start giving Brunson the ball more with Doncic, but it's a process, you can't do it overnight. Today Doncic has 22 FGA in 32min and Brunson 20 in 36min. That's good enough.

PS: Doncic has never played with an all star anyway. Besides the bubble KP for what, 4 games. Tatum always had an all star... He had Horford, Kyrie and Brown. Who did Doncic had as his best no.2 ??? KP for 4 games, and now Brusnon, but only now. And it remains to be seen how he will play against better defense. Against Clippers last year he disappeared. It's not clear if Brunson even is an all star (with the current level of play). You can't bring how Tatum can play with other stars in the argument, Doncic never had any all star teammates to begin with...

[SelfishPlayer]

Tell that to Donovan Mitchell.
First give him Jaylen Brown and then we'll see how Luka plays with another star. Tatum is being Tatum, because he's not a playmaker. If you give him the ball all the time, he'll just shoot a bunch of times himself. Luka actually assists other people, so he won't be the only one scoring. And Tatum needs other people to assist him much more than Doncic needs them. Maybe also that is the reason why Tatum doesn't hold the ball as much, because he would just get an inefficient shot...

And THJ was completely fine playing next to Doncic... Got a bunch of free points from him, nice contract (too big for him) and he could play iso 1 on 1 all the time. Brunson only suddenly became much more better player. In January he wasn't yet as good as he is right now.

You can also say that DFS thrives much more next to Doncic. And he wouldn't get not nearly as many open 3 pointers next to Tatum. So perhaps Tatum does allow other star to have more of the ball in his hands, but for other rotational players, like Powell, Bullock, DFS, Kleber they would much rather play with Doncic than with Tatum. Just look at how many open points Gobert gets from Mitchell, before critizing Doncic from holding the ball so much.

Not only can Tatum produce with a ball handler but Tatum can also produce with another all star wing in Jaylen Brown. Brunson can't be his best with Luka and Porzingis can't be his best with Luka. We know it's Luka.

It is the only way Tatum can efficiently produce. With another ball handler or another star.

Porzingis can't be his best with anyone. The guy is a ball stopper... Wants to touch the ball a lot, want to play in the low post, wants to play in the middle post, doesn't want to just spread the floor on the 3point line... Plus he's missing what 50% of games and when he comes back he's all rusty.

Doncic only started playing with another ball handler in late December. For the first time in his career. THJ was iso only and Curry wasn't good enough as a playmaker anyway. Also, Brunson you see right now is much better than Brunson in January or at least much better integrated in the team... Also the Mavs actually did start giving Brunson the ball more with Doncic, but it's a process, you can't do it overnight. Today Doncic has 22 FGA in 32min and Brunson 20 in 36min. That's good enough.

PS: Doncic has never played with an all star anyway. Besides the bubble KP for what, 4 games. Tatum always had an all star... He had Horford, Kyrie and Brown. Who did Doncic had as his best no.2 ??? KP for 4 games, and now Brusnon, but only now. And it remains to be seen how he will play against better defense. Against Clippers last year he disappeared. It's not clear if Brunson even is an all star (with the current level of play). You can't bring how Tatum can play with other stars in the argument, Doncic never had any all star teammates to begin with...

Tatum making All Star games and playing with players that made the All Star game as his teammate is a credit to Tatum. Jalen Brunson playing like an All Star in the playoffs and the team winning with Luka injured makes my Tatum over Luka decision easy.

[Bob8]

This has been discussed in the media for several seasons now. The people who chose Tatum I thought were wrong by a large degree. But with this playoff series against Durant, Tatum looks like the better overall player and who you would want to build a team with. There is no shortage of guards that can get you 30 if you put the ball in their hands. Luka gets in the way of that guard because that's his role and then some. Tatum can play with that guard. Tatum can play with Luka. Luka can't play with Luka! Look at how well Tyrese Haliburton plays without D. Fox. Haliburton and Luka can't play to their best together. Tatum can be Tatum no matter who is dominating the ball. That's rare.

Why would Luka play with Luka? Give Luka M.Bridges, few 3&D players and Ayton and they will dominate Nba for a decade. They might have won it this year, if they had decent C.

Nets were a mess the whole season and we're talking here like they were contenders? Bad defensive team too. You're forgetting 1 thing, Luka has dominated and won against more or less everyone in MVP conversation. 2x against Tatum.

If it didn't happen in the postseason it didn't happen.

He's a even much better in playoffs. 15 games, 33.3/9/9; 39% for 3 and 59% efg%.

Yes he didn't came in second round yet, but Clippers were much better team and Mavs came very close last year.

[Gimli]

This has been discussed in the media for several seasons now. The people who chose Tatum I thought were wrong by a large degree. But with this playoff series against Durant, Tatum looks like the better overall player and who you would want to build a team with. There is no shortage of guards that can get you 30 if you put the ball in their hands. Luka gets in the way of that guard because that's his role and then some. Tatum can play with that guard. Tatum can play with Luka. Luka can't play with Luka! Look at how well Tyrese Haliburton plays without D. Fox. Haliburton and Luka can't play to their best together. Tatum can be Tatum no matter who is dominating the ball. That's rare.

Yeah I disagree with that. Luka is not James Harden off the ball where he stands with his hands on his hips. He can spot up, post up, set screens for others. You don't want Luka playing off the ball much because he's an elite playmaker. Putting the ball in anyone else's hands while Luka is on the floor just makes your offense worse, that's why the Mavs don't do it often.

Ball dominant players that can get you 25+ points on ball are not difficult to find. It's hard to find guys that can get you 25+ off ball with zero need to facilitate. Why can't Luka allow someone else to get the 9 assists? For the same reason Westbrook couldnt or even Harden. They become lessor players individually.

Brunson won't be able to get 9 assists per game, or just barely. And only due to the gravity from Luka.

It's difficult to find guys that can give you 25 per game in the playoffs on good efficiency.

Derozan can't do anything against the Bucks, Lavine as well, Morant has problems, CP3 as well, Harden is bad, Butler has currently found his jumper, but he'll lose it again, Irving was bad, Durant, Mitchell, Trae...

Only Giannis, Tatum, Brown?, Ingram, CJ?, Doncic, Brunson (but maybe due to Utah's defense) are actually playing well. But I'm not watching all the teams... That's not a lot of players and all of them are all stars.

It's hard to find guys that can get you 25+ off ball with zero need to facilitate.

What you are describing are actually players who need someone else to feed them the ball, because they can't score by themselves.
And you want to mask it and say that's somehow great, because it means they are not ball dominant...

Look whenever you got 2 all stars it will always be questionable how well they will mix. Kyrie and Boston didn't mix, Kyrie and Durant also not, Butler + Embiid + Harris + Simmons also didn't work... CP3 and Griffin did mix, but they weren't good enough. CP3 and Harden didn't mix ideally, but they were the only team that actually could beat GSW with Durant. So it was actually a huge success. Whether an all star can play with another all star is not an easy answer. And the celtics with Brown and Tatum have only now started playing really well... But their core of Brown + Tatum + Horford has been here already for some time and Tatum's off ball ability.

[Bob8]

Spoiler:

Career eFG%, Luka 52.8, Tatum 52.5, Luka scoring much more. When you compare 3-pts %, you must compare difficulty of shots and volume. Luka career 3pt attempts are 8.2 vs Tatum's 5.9.

Bottom line is that Luka is scoring 5.5 points more in his career with better eFG% and creating everything alone. I would say better scorer and shooter.

If we look at career numbers, what you said we should, the difference between them is enormous, Luka basically much better in everything, being 1 year younger and having big room for improvement with his conditioning.

Ok, then. I'm tapping out.

I have given you facts and you don't like it? If you say career numbers are more important in 3pts %, than they should be more important everywhere. You cannot just pick stats you like. I gave you FT%, but I kinda doubt that FT% is the most important stats in basketball. Look at Ricky brick Rubio. He was always great FT shooter, didn't help him much.

[Feed Your Head]

Um, I think the playmaking gap is smaller than the defensive gap,

Talk to me about Tatum's playmaking please.

Because I would have Luka an elite playmaker, like Jokic is probably better, then maybe Lebron, maybe Paul, but the list doesn't extend beyond that. I do not have Tatum that level of defender.

And Luka I have as a subpar, but far from tragic defender. My biggest question is Tatum's playmaking. I get he's a better playmaker relatively speaking than Luka is a defender, but I don't think of him as anything special as a playmaker.

So sincere question here, help me understand who Tatum is as a playmaker?

I’d have Tatum as a very good playmaker, but not great. I can promise that raw numbers don’t do it justice lol, but Luka is still on another planet as a playmaker.

The best argument I have for Tatum is what happens to the offense when he sits. And that’s not all because he’s a dangerous scorer.

Celtics offensive rating last year with Tatum: 114.8
Celtics offensive rating last year W/O Tatum: 105.9

Celtics offensive rating this year with Tatum: 115.5
Celtics offensive rating this year W/O Tatum: 105.1

Mavs offensive rating last year with Luka: 116.6
Mavs offensive rating last year W/O Luka: 107.7

Mavs offensive rating this year with Luka: 113.8
Mavs offensive rating this year W/O Luka: 108.7

Stats are not everything, but if Luka was as much the superior offensive player as some pretend, then why doesn’t it show up in the numbers? Especially considering the Celtics have what many would describe as a very good offensive player in Jaylen, whereas the Mavs second guy has been KP and now Brunson.

You’d think the Mavs offense would suffer
more offensively when Luka sits than the Celtics when Tatum sits, but it’s not even close to the case. Overall on/off is even more extreme, here is their cleaning the glass player cards for their career, and the on/off.

Spoiler:

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

Luka is a year younger, and I think he has higher upside, but the days of them being in different tiers is over IMO.

As for just playmaking, the only evidence I can give is just consistently watching the team. It’s why all the national guys have been raving about his leap as a passer, they are finally seeing what Celtics fans have seen all season. I don’t expect people to watch this video lol, but the passing in this is pretty good evidence.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=zGv3JhultAWC7yB29dcTlQ

[Bob8]

Not only can Tatum produce with a ball handler but Tatum can also produce with another all star wing in Jaylen Brown. Brunson can't be his best with Luka and Porzingis can't be his best with Luka. We know it's Luka.

It is the only way Tatum can efficiently produce. With another ball handler or another star.

Porzingis can't be his best with anyone. The guy is a ball stopper... Wants to touch the ball a lot, want to play in the low post, wants to play in the middle post, doesn't want to just spread the floor on the 3point line... Plus he's missing what 50% of games and when he comes back he's all rusty.

Doncic only started playing with another ball handler in late December. For the first time in his career. THJ was iso only and Curry wasn't good enough as a playmaker anyway. Also, Brunson you see right now is much better than Brunson in January or at least much better integrated in the team... Also the Mavs actually did start giving Brunson the ball more with Doncic, but it's a process, you can't do it overnight. Today Doncic has 22 FGA in 32min and Brunson 20 in 36min. That's good enough.

PS: Doncic has never played with an all star anyway. Besides the bubble KP for what, 4 games. Tatum always had an all star... He had Horford, Kyrie and Brown. Who did Doncic had as his best no.2 ??? KP for 4 games, and now Brusnon, but only now. And it remains to be seen how he will play against better defense. Against Clippers last year he disappeared. It's not clear if Brunson even is an all star (with the current level of play). You can't bring how Tatum can play with other stars in the argument, Doncic never had any all star teammates to begin with...

Tatum making All Star games and playing with players that made the All Star game as his teammate is a credit to Tatum. Jalen Brunson playing like an All Star in the playoffs and the team winning with Luka injured makes my Tatum over Luka decision easy.

Mavs have won 2 games without Luka. One in which Kleber was shooting 8/11 for 3. Don't you think that 2 games are hardly representative sample?

Anyway, you can have Tatum over Luka. Like I can have Brunson over Trae in 2018 draft.

[Gimli]

Tatum making All Star games and playing with players that made the All Star game as his teammate is a credit to Tatum. Jalen Brunson playing like an All Star in the playoffs and the team winning with Luka injured makes my Tatum over Luka decision easy.

According to you. It's not a credit to Steph Curry that Klay Thompson plays the way he does. Also it's not a credit to Butler that Bam is an all star. But if you want to see some actual credit, you can check how many open 3 pointers Luka generates for his teammates and compare that to Tatum. You can also compare that with Brunson, if you want. And check how many lobs or easy layups Powell gets from Doncic vs from Brunson. Though yeah, also a lot of credit on defense goes to Tatum, not so much to Doncic.

The Mavs played without Luka for only 3 games in the playoffs... They won these 2 games due to the adrenaline, surprise element that they can actually play without Luka and due to Utah not willing to fight and due to extremely bad perimeter defense from Utah.

If Brunson is so great, he could lead the Mavs to a better record than 5-9 without Luka in the regular season. He also could play much better last year against the Clipps.

[Bob8]

Nba executives don't have much doubt,

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-execs-poll-luka-doncic-top-young-player-zion-williamson-lamelo-ball-evan-mobley/

That's all from me.

[Texas Chuck]

Spoiler:

I’d have Tatum as a very good playmaker, but not great. I can promise that raw numbers don’t do it justice lol, but Luka is still on another planet as a playmaker.

The best argument I have for Tatum is what happens to the offense when he sits. And that’s not all because he’s a dangerous scorer.

Celtics offensive rating last year with Tatum: 114.8
Celtics offensive rating last year W/O Tatum: 105.9

Celtics offensive rating this year with Tatum: 115.5
Celtics offensive rating this year W/O Tatum: 105.1

Mavs offensive rating last year with Luka: 116.6
Mavs offensive rating last year W/O Luka: 107.7

Mavs offensive rating this year with Luka: 113.8
Mavs offensive rating this year W/O Luka: 108.7

Stats are not everything, but if Luka was as much the superior offensive player as some pretend, then why doesn’t it show up in the numbers? Especially considering the Celtics have what many would describe is a very good offensive player in Jaylen, whereas the Mavs second guy has been KP and now Brunson. You’d think the Mavs offense would suffer
more offensively when Luka sits than the Celtics when Tatum sits, but it’s not even close to the case.

Overall on/off is even more extreme, here is their cleaning the glass player cards for their career, and the on/off.

[spoiler]

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

Luka is a year younger, and I think he has higher upside, but the days of them being in a different tier is over IMO.

As for just playmaking, the only evidence I can give is just consistently watching the team. It’s why all the national guys have been raving about his leap as a passer, they are finally seeing what Celtics fans have seen all season. I don’t expect people to watch this video lol, but the passing in this is pretty good evidence.

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=zGv3JhultAWC7yB29dcTlQ[/spoiler]

Appreciate the detailed response. Thanks. Can't watch the video atm, but will definitely watch it later.

I'm not a huge on/off guy. I'm not sure it tells us that much about the player when they are off other than how well the team is constructed to deal with them off the court. If Brunson or Brown or whomever on either team is able to keep the offense afloat without the star, that doesn't speak ill of the star to me. If the offense falls apart without them, my immediate thought is the team needs to address that issue, though certainly its telling how good the star is when the offense with them is great. I always think back to my Mavs post-Nash, where the team could be very hard-scoring when Dirk sat. I mean in the title year, the team was worst in the league level offensively without Dirk, but obviously those players were great in their roles around Dirk.

So my takeaway there is Boston needs another offensive piece to help Brown when Tatum sits more than anything else. The other thing to note is both teams had coaching changes this summer and for Dallas anyone the focus went from offense almost exclusively to a lot more defensive minded approach. And I know the Celtics have been incredible defensively the 2nd half of the season. I'm extremely impressed to see that efficient an offense with Tatum combined with the level of defense the Celtics have been playing. Shame the Celtics like my Mavs got off to a slow start, or Tatum would have been a legit MVP candidate. Dude is a beast.

I have Jokic and Giannis a tier to themselves at the top, then Embiid as the 3rd guy then a grouping with (assuming health) Lebron, Kawhi, Curry, Luka, Tatum, KD behind them. And if anyone wants to argue any of those guys the best of the bunch, okay, I'm not gonna fight you. I don't really have an answer to the OP. I'm plenty happy with Luka as my favorite team's franchise guy. I'd be thrilled if it were Tatum.

[SelfishPlayer]

What you are describing are actually players who need someone else to feed them the ball, because they can't score by themselves.

No. Some players are simply cold blooded scorers that can get their own shot anywhere or anytime like Dominique Wilkins and Tatum. Then there are cold blooded scorers that can get their own shot anywhere at anytime and even facilitate if they are asked like Allen Iverson and Larry Bird. Then there are guys like Tyrese Haliburton. Whose scoring and assist numbers skyrocket when you make them the ball dominant do it all even if it results in losing. Luka is starting to look like the latter.

[Swish1906]

Is there a page which tracks the amount of open shots created by a player? Im pretty confident Luka blows Tatum out there, even more than with just the raw APG numbers

[Feed Your Head]

Spoiler:

I’d have Tatum as a very good playmaker, but not great. I can promise that raw numbers don’t do it justice lol, but Luka is still on another planet as a playmaker.

The best argument I have for Tatum is what happens to the offense when he sits. And that’s not all because he’s a dangerous scorer.

Celtics offensive rating last year with Tatum: 114.8
Celtics offensive rating last year W/O Tatum: 105.9

Celtics offensive rating this year with Tatum: 115.5
Celtics offensive rating this year W/O Tatum: 105.1

Mavs offensive rating last year with Luka: 116.6
Mavs offensive rating last year W/O Luka: 107.7

Mavs offensive rating this year with Luka: 113.8
Mavs offensive rating this year W/O Luka: 108.7

Stats are not everything, but if Luka was as much the superior offensive player as some pretend, then why doesn’t it show up in the numbers? Especially considering the Celtics have what many would describe is a very good offensive player in Jaylen, whereas the Mavs second guy has been KP and now Brunson. You’d think the Mavs offense would suffer
more offensively when Luka sits than the Celtics when Tatum sits, but it’s not even close to the case.

Overall on/off is even more extreme, here is their cleaning the glass player cards for their career, and the on/off.

[spoiler]

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

Luka is a year younger, and I think he has higher upside, but the days of them being in a different tier is over IMO.

As for just playmaking, the only evidence I can give is just consistently watching the team. It’s why all the national guys have been raving about his leap as a passer, they are finally seeing what Celtics fans have seen all season. I don’t expect people to watch this video lol, but the passing in this is pretty good evidence.

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=zGv3JhultAWC7yB29dcTlQ[/spoiler]

Appreciate the detailed response. Thanks. Can't watch the video atm, but will definitely watch it later.

I'm not a huge on/off guy. I'm not sure it tells us that much about the player when they are off other than how well the team is constructed to deal with them off the court. If Brunson or Brown or whomever on either team is able to keep the offense afloat without the star, that doesn't speak ill of the star to me. If the offense falls apart without them, my immediate thought is the team needs to address that issue, though certainly its telling how good the star is when the offense with them is great. I always think back to my Mavs post-Nash, where the team could be very hard-scoring when Dirk sat. I mean in the title year, the team was worst in the league level offensively without Dirk, but obviously those players were great in their roles around Dirk.

So my takeaway there is Boston needs another offensive piece to help Brown when Tatum sits more than anything else. The other thing to note is both teams had coaching changes this summer and for Dallas anyone the focus went from offense almost exclusively to a lot more defensive minded approach. And I know the Celtics have been incredible defensively the 2nd half of the season. I'm extremely impressed to see that efficient an offense with Tatum combined with the level of defense the Celtics have been playing. Shame the Celtics like my Mavs got off to a slow start, or Tatum would have been a legit MVP candidate. Dude is a beast.

I have Jokic and Giannis a tier to themselves at the top, then Embiid as the 3rd guy then a grouping with (assuming health) Lebron, Kawhi, Curry, Luka, Tatum, KD behind them. And if anyone wants to argue any of those guys the best of the bunch, okay, I'm not gonna fight you. I don't really have an answer to the OP. I'm plenty happy with Luka as my favorite team's franchise guy. I'd be thrilled if it were Tatum.

I think Luka can be the best player in the league, you’ll never see me say a negative thing about him. I just think people are stubborn about Tatum lol, because of prior opinions. I think most would agree Luka has the higher ceiling, but I think there’s a debate about whose a more impactful player right now.

That said….and I can not stress this enough, there is no wrong answer here. We are likely watching two all time greats, who just do it slightly differently. I know everyone likes player comps and all that, but they are both going to be top 3-5 MVP candidates for the foreseeable future.

[SelfishPlayer]

Is there a page which tracks the amount of open shots created by a player? Im pretty confident Luka blows Tatum out there, even more than with just the raw APG numbers

The Ben Simmons stat.

[Texas Chuck]

I just think people are stubborn about Tatum lol, because of prior opinions.

So a couple of confessions:

I never thought Tatum was going to be this.
I am the last guy to the party on players.(mostly anyway--- I was early on Draymond and Middleton). I didn't believe Curry was Curry, Giannis was Giannis, etc....

But once they've shown it, I can come back and eat my crow and say I slotted that dude and I missed. I thought he was going to be a good solid starter. Like an upgraded Harry Barnes. Instead he's like a bigger, badder Paul Pierce. And I loved Truth.