Why BALL HOGS never win a chamionchip?

[Ein Sof]

lol

Yeah man. That's exactly how it works.

MJ was such a cancerous ballhog, unlike Dimwiddie. And so was 2016 Curry:

28.6 FGA/100
46.9% assisted rate

In fact, every first option in NBA history was a ballhog.

Who says words have to mean things?

I didn't say MJ was a cancerous ballhog. I said he's a bigger ballhog than Spencer Dinwiddie while demonstrating why using % of FGM assisted is a highly flawed way of measuring ballhogging. Your argument is so weak that you have to beat up on straw men rather than addressing what I actually say.

Here's a few more examples to demonstrate how absurd your position is:

Career % of FGs Assisted (career FGA in parentheses)
Tony Parker: 30.5% (12.6)
Andre Miller: 31.1% (10.0)
Rajon Rondo: 31.7% (8.9)
TJ McConnell: 33.0% (6.1)
Jrue Holiday: 33.4% (13.9)
Jameer Nelson: 34.4% (9.9)

Allen Iverson: 36.4% (21.8)
LeBron James: 36.9% (19.6)
Kobe Bryant: 40.6% (19.5)
Tracy McGrady: 44.5% (16.4)
Carmelo Anthony: 50.0% (18.0)
Bradley Beal: 53.4% (17.6)

So Tony Parker, Andre Miller, Rajon Rondo, TJ McConnell, Jrue Holiday and Jameer Nelson are bigger "ballhogs" than Allen Iverson, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Carmelo Anthony and Bradley Beal? Yeah man, that's exactly how it works

In fact, every PG who doesn't shoot a high proportion of 3PAs is a "ballhog" (according to your astoundingly bad logic).

But yeah, who says words have to mean things?

P.S. Jordan is a bigger ballhog than Spencer Dinwiddie but that doesn't make him a cancer. Jordan is one of the best scorers of all-time so if he's on my team then I'd like him to hog the ball a fair amount. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

How did I beat up on a strawman when it's literally the argument you made?

Jordan is not a ballhog, especially compared to Dimwiddie, because being a ballhog is a bad thing - a ballhog is someone who hinders ball movement.

So when you talk about Jordan "hogging the ball", you're actually referring to him taking shots, like a scorer does.



Regarding your new statdump: I never said having a lower assisted rate than someone automatically makes you a "bigger" ballhog - that's something you made up. (plus those guys have high assisted rates for PGs)

Your argument is so weak that you have to beat up on straw men rather than addressing what I actually say.

What I actually said was that USG% (shots + turnovers) isn't ballhogging, and that a low assisted rate means you're taking a long time to score per touch, i.e. you're not scoring off quick ball movement.

A low assisted rate doesn't mean you're selfish or a ballhog. (see: Nash)
However, playing more off-ball is absolutely something that both improves one's assisted rate and also helps team offense.

So, a low assisted rate is much closer to showing ballhogging (time of possession) than USG% (which just tells you the player shoots a lot), even though it still isn't that close.




PS: What's your problem with equating "cancer" and "ballhog"? I know I already brought this up but are you seriously unaware "ballhog" is a negative term...?

Expanding on this a little:

1) A high USG% will increase one's time of possession, but it will also increase their production, while a low assisted rate will increase time of possession, without necessarily improving production.

2) USG% & AST% only show how you end possessions - they don't show what you do throughout the shot clock.
Assisted rate doesn't really do that either, but at least it hints at how much time you take per scoring touch.

Needless to say, ballhogging isn't just about assisted rate, or even time of possession - partially because the game is too complicated to boil down to XYZ tracking stat, and because "ballhog" isn't a very precise term to begin with...

[anatomicbomb]

what's a chamionchip?

is that a competition where stats mean whatever you want to pretend they mean?

[HabsAndDubs]

Those numbers are less than meaningless, I’m not exactly sure what you’re getting at.

The reason why ball dominant players don’t win is because in a series matchup, the other team knows exactly what you are gonna do every play, and considering how talented the league is, unless you’re a Lebron type talent, you can’t brute force Jesus ball your way to a ring, because you’ll get figured out easily, and defences can plan accordingly. Look at golden state against Toronto in 2019. Once KD and Klay went down, Nurse spammed a high school gimmick defence on curry and it was ultra effective because a team great enough to make the finals can play good enough defence to shut pretty much anyone down.

I will say it’s unfair to include Luka in this pile because I think he’s an outlier who’s great enough to win a ring playing his style. He’s only 23, but if Dallas can get a couple more guys, he’s gonna see some big successes in his near future.

[bisme37]

I prefer Doritos but Chamionchips are ok I guess.

[red96]

Westbrook has 4 and one finals appearance.

Don't be disingenuous.
How many of those are without Harden?
How many without Durant?

I don't know if he has been more successful...

Harden's record post OKC record easily outpaces Westbrook post Durant.
In fact the only time Westbrook has even gotten out of the first round since the KD defection is the one year he spent with Harden.

I know you ride hard for Westbrook but there's really no question who has been more successful.

Anyway, enough digression

Also, when Harden was in OKC, he was as much the lead playmaker for OKC as Westbrook was, if not more so.

[Forbes]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

So as a Mavs fan, seeing Luka dominate the ball definitely kills me because I have been screaming about these other guy not playing championship ball for years. I’m just hoping in Lukas case he gets another star and becomes less dominant. Clearly we’ll only find out if the Mavs actually do get another star.

Weird that you're bringing up Mavs offense because them not getting in to the finals had nothing to do with their offense. Defense killed them and no rim presence. What they were doing on offense worked.

They had 114 ORTG compared to Boston 106 vs GSW. But like i said, defense was the issue.

I agree defense is definitely the main issue. Not sure what’s weird when the original post is mentioning specific players who have a history of not winning while also dominating the ball. That is also a problem.

No matter what, there should be no reason one player has to dominate the ball so much due to lack of other solid player makers/ball handlers. Team have to do a better job when building these rosters. I have watched Paul, Westbrook and Harden do it for years and have always spoke against it. And now my fav team is looks to be in the same situation where Luka has to do what he has to do. But yes defense with each of those players teams definitely were a main weakness as well.

[Archx]

So as a Mavs fan, seeing Luka dominate the ball definitely kills me because I have been screaming about these other guy not playing championship ball for years. I’m just hoping in Lukas case he gets another star and becomes less dominant. Clearly we’ll only find out if the Mavs actually do get another star.

Weird that you're bringing up Mavs offense because them not getting in to the finals had nothing to do with their offense. Defense killed them and no rim presence. What they were doing on offense worked.

They had 114 ORTG compared to Boston 106 vs GSW. But like i said, defense was the issue.

I agree defense is definitely the main issue. Not sure what’s weird when the original post is mentioning specific players who have a history of not winning while also dominating the ball. That is also a problem.

No matter what, there should be no reason one player has to dominate the ball so much due to lack of other solid player makers/ball handlers. Team have to do a better job when building these rosters. I have watched Paul, Westbrook and Harden do it for years and have always spoke against it. And now my fav team is looks to be in the same situation where Luka has to do what he has to do. But yes defense with each of those players teams definitely were a main weakness as well.

Problem is not their USG% (Brunson was at 28%, Dinwiddie 23%) or how much Luka dominates the ball, it's how Mavs run their offense. They would need to get Luka off ball a lot. Even if they bring 3 more stars, you then question what would actually be their best way to win. First Kidd needs to tell him to start moving off the ball and create those type of offensive scenarios then you can start thinking about what you suggested. Mavs just don't play like that, or at least they haven't so far.

So again, what they were doing with Luka and others clearly worked on offense, but they needed help protecting the rim. We'll see what Kidd comes up with next season.

[Forbes]

Weird that you're bringing up Mavs offense because them not getting in to the finals had nothing to do with their offense. Defense killed them and no rim presence. What they were doing on offense worked.

They had 114 ORTG compared to Boston 106 vs GSW. But like i said, defense was the issue.

I agree defense is definitely the main issue. Not sure what’s weird when the original post is mentioning specific players who have a history of not winning while also dominating the ball. That is also a problem.

No matter what, there should be no reason one player has to dominate the ball so much due to lack of other solid player makers/ball handlers. Team have to do a better job when building these rosters. I have watched Paul, Westbrook and Harden do it for years and have always spoke against it. And now my fav team is looks to be in the same situation where Luka has to do what he has to do. But yes defense with each of those players teams definitely were a main weakness as well.

Problem is not their USG% (Brunson was at 28%, Dinwiddie 23%) or how much Luka dominates the ball, it's how Mavs run their offense. They would need to get Luka off ball a lot. Even if they bring 3 more stars, you then question what would actually be their best way to win. First Kidd needs to tell him to start moving off the ball and create those type of offensive scenarios then you can start thinking about what you suggested. Mavs just don't play like that, or at least they haven't so far.

So again, what they were doing with Luka and others clearly worked on offense, but they needed help protecting the rim. We'll see what Kidd comes up with next season.

Thats the thing, even if they were the top defensive team in the league, the offense was way to dependent on Luka to win a chip. It’s hard to say how they’d look if they actually had another star because Luka would definitely have to play off ball a lot. Right now I honestly think with the personnel they have, its very hard for Luka to play off ball. There could be so many factors in play on why they don’t run a different type of offense. Hopefully they figure out both side of the ball though. Defense still need improvement and and that offense needs to be more well rounded in my opinion.

[SpreeS]

So as a Mavs fan, seeing Luka dominate the ball definitely kills me because I have been screaming about these other guy not playing championship ball for years. I’m just hoping in Lukas case he gets another star and becomes less dominant. Clearly we’ll only find out if the Mavs actually do get another star.

Weird that you're bringing up Mavs offense because them not getting in to the finals had nothing to do with their offense. Defense killed them and no rim presence. What they were doing on offense worked.

They had 114 ORTG compared to Boston 106 vs GSW. But like i said, defense was the issue.

I agree defense is definitely the main issue. Not sure what’s weird when the original post is mentioning specific players who have a history of not winning while also dominating the ball. That is also a problem.

No matter what, there should be no reason one player has to dominate the ball so much due to lack of other solid player makers/ball handlers. Team have to do a better job when building these rosters. I have watched Paul, Westbrook and Harden do it for years and have always spoke against it. And now my fav team is looks to be in the same situation where Luka has to do what he has to do. But yes defense with each of those players teams definitely were a main weakness as well.

Doncic/Dinwiddie/Brunson are one of the best group of players with handling/passing/play making skills in the NBA. It is the reason why DAL was 2nd team in the West….but these guards haven’t continuity between each other. A lot of ISO’s from this trio. Kidd/Doncic could have really nice team offence last season…

ISO poss in PO

1. Doncic 8.5 poss
12. Dinwiddie 4.3 poss
15. Brunson 4.1 poss

Shot after 7+ dribbles

1. Doncic 11.9 FGA
4. Brunson 7.1 FGA
19. Dinwiddie 3.9 FGA

[JN61]

Westbrook has 4 and one finals appearance.

Don't be disingenuous.
How many of those are without Harden?
How many without Durant?

I don't know if he has been more successful...

Harden's record post OKC record easily outpaces Westbrook post Durant.
In fact the only time Westbrook has even gotten out of the first round since the KD defection is the one year he spent with Harden.

I know you ride hard for Westbrook but there's really no question who has been more successful.

Anyway, enough digression

Also, when Harden was in OKC, he was as much the lead playmaker for OKC as Westbrook was, if not more so.

Passing stats of NBA.com doesn't go that far back but this is easily refuted. I'm not saying Harden wasn't important 2nd lineup playmaker and did at times even majority of playmaking for that unit, but Westbrook did all the playmaking for 1st line and majority of playmaking even when he and Harden shared the floor.

When we look at more advanced numbers to line up their statistics a bit closer we get this picture:
2012 reg season Westbrook/Harden:
Per game: 5.5/3.7
Per 36 mins: 5.6/4.2
per 100 poss: 8/6.1
AST%: 29.8/19.3

Westbrook quite easily beats harden on all of these, on the year he had arguably the least amount of playmaking responsibilities especially when we factor in how important acquisition of Fisher was for the team as stabilizer and floor general.

When we look at the playoffs we see even BIGGER gap between Westbrook and Harden:
Per game: 5.9/3.4
Per 36: 5.5/3.9
Per 100 poss: 8.1/5.7
AST%: 28/17.2

So roughly 25-30% more playmaking responsibilities than Harden per minute basis. And this 2012 is the only year they are even in somewhat comparable metrics even. Previous years there isn't even any kind of discussion about this.

So lets stop this nonsense. And as said this was by far least amount of responsibility Westbrook had apart of maybe his rookie year. Previous years with strong playoff pushes Westbrook was like 30% more playmaking responsibilities and years later with Durant Westbrook was the clear heart and soul and person who makes things happen for OKC offense which is widely to be seen in several offensive impact metrics where Westbrook is in good 4-5 year window 2-3 highest reg season offensive impact player on charts like RPM. For 2010 decade there is only maybe Paul who had bigger playmaking responsibilities than Westbrook. Lets stop downplaying this guy. Harden is excellent playmaker. All time great but he was still very much still learning back in 2012 and blossomed into a primary playmaker's role years later.

[GiannisAnte34]

Those numbers are less than meaningless, I’m not exactly sure what you’re getting at.

The reason why ball dominant players don’t win is because in a series matchup, the other team knows exactly what you are gonna do every play, and considering how talented the league is, unless you’re a Lebron type talent, you can’t brute force Jesus ball your way to a ring, because you’ll get figured out easily, and defences can plan accordingly. Look at golden state against Toronto in 2019. Once KD and Klay went down, Nurse spammed a high school gimmick defence on curry and it was ultra effective because a team great enough to make the finals can play good enough defence to shut pretty much anyone down.

I will say it’s unfair to include Luka in this pile because I think he’s an outlier who’s great enough to win a ring playing his style. He’s only 23, but if Dallas can get a couple more guys, he’s gonna see some big successes in his near future.

Luka needs a couple more guys but Golden State is too singular because Durant and Klay went down? lol

if Brunson and THJ went down for the Mavs they'd have gotten swept by the Jazz

[HabsAndDubs]

Those numbers are less than meaningless, I’m not exactly sure what you’re getting at.

The reason why ball dominant players don’t win is because in a series matchup, the other team knows exactly what you are gonna do every play, and considering how talented the league is, unless you’re a Lebron type talent, you can’t brute force Jesus ball your way to a ring, because you’ll get figured out easily, and defences can plan accordingly. Look at golden state against Toronto in 2019. Once KD and Klay went down, Nurse spammed a high school gimmick defence on curry and it was ultra effective because a team great enough to make the finals can play good enough defence to shut pretty much anyone down.

I will say it’s unfair to include Luka in this pile because I think he’s an outlier who’s great enough to win a ring playing his style. He’s only 23, but if Dallas can get a couple more guys, he’s gonna see some big successes in his near future.

Luka needs a couple more guys but Golden State is too singular because Durant and Klay went down? lol

if Brunson and THJ went down for the Mavs they'd have gotten swept by the Jazz

If you want to win a championship, you need a good team. Dallas is Luka and a couple solid players- not good enough, despite how great he is. 2019 warriors without KD and Klay is steph and guys who are no longer in the league. Point was pretty clearly that it doesn’t matter how great you are- very few, if any players can win a championship as a solo effort, which is why ball hogs don’t win.

[foreigngrammar]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

What is this saying again? Kobe is the biggest ball hog on the list and he won multiple champion shops.

Kobe lead the Lakers in assists for many seasons even though he was the shooting guard not the point guard

So did MJ on those Bulls squads.. .what could have been the reason? *detective*

[Memories]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

What is this saying again? Kobe is the biggest ball hog on the list and he won multiple champion shops.

Kobe ain't a bigger ballhog than Harden or Westbrook. Those two literally just pad their assist numbers for the sake of looking good. Also a fun fact: Kobe lead his team in assists in almost every year of his career.

I'm very curious on how people define "ballhog". Because I could list several more players before I list Kobe.

[Memories]

What is this saying again? Kobe is the biggest ball hog on the list and he won multiple champion shops.

Kobe lead the Lakers in assists for many seasons even though he was the shooting guard not the point guard

So did MJ on those Bulls squads.. .what could have been the reason? *detective*

But again, how does either Kobe or MJ get labeled as a ballhog more so than the likes of Harden, Westbrook or even Doncic (I'm sure I'm triggering some fans with that last one) when they controlled and pounded the ball more than Kobe ever did?

What is your definition of a ballhog? Is it simply players padding their assist numbers?

[Memories]

I leave here % of FG Ast'd per PO career for TOP perimeter players. You can draw your own conclusions.

1. Paul .135
2. Doncic .135
3. Nash .204
4. Westbrook .213
5. Harden .229

6. Wade .291
7. Lebron .326
8. Kobe .349
9. Curry .409
10. Kidd .447

What is this saying again? Kobe is the biggest ball hog on the list and he won multiple champion shops.

None of the others got to ride Shaq’s coattails

Actually Wade did case you forgot. But now I see it's just pointless hating as if Shaq was a winner himself before Kobe.

[LarsV8]

Yikes, faulty premise, bad data, bad conclusion.

Not a good thread lol.

[Memories]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

Kobe only won 2 rings. He was a bus rider for the first 3.

They aren't called the most dominate duo the league has ever seen because one was a bus rider.

Man this board truly sucks and reeks of low IQ posters in here.

[atlantabbq99]

Kobe won 5 of them as a ball hog. He was an elite passer when he wanted to be or an elite ISO scorer when he wanted to be, but rarely ever balanced both

Kobe only won 2 rings. He was a bus rider for the first 3.

They aren't called the most dominate duo the league has ever seen because one was a bus rider.

Man this board truly sucks and reeks of low IQ posters in here.

Kobe was trash in the Shaq era. He was horrible against the Sixers, Pacers, and Detroit. His only decent series was against New Jersey.

3 out of the 4 finals he was hurting the team and a liability on offense and defense, and Shaq had to drag him into a championship. Combined against the sixers, pacers and pistons Kobe only averaged 18ppg and shot 39FG% and he allowed guys he was guarding, Iverson, Miller, and Rip to shoot over there averages, about 47FG%.

Nets was the only series where Kobe was able to shoot over 40% and out play his opponent.