Peak Harden closer to peak Derozan or Jordan?

[NBA4Lyfe]

harden is also not popular with the white nba media voters who vote on end of year awards

harden has been screwed outta mvp in 2017 and definetly 2019 nba mvp. if steph curry had those same seasons againist the competiton harden went up againist those years, curry likely wins mvp just because of how popular he is among white media members. Hell stephen curry finished 3rd in mvp and didnt even make the playoffs in 2021

harden on the other hand was left off all nba in 2016 despite average 29/7/6 and leading the nba in total points scored. Also was left off all nba in 2021 despite playing 44 games, when lebron made all nba playing 45 games

harden has been up againist it his entire career from the nba media, and if he played in a sport where the voting had no bias, like the nfl, nhl or mlb his career likely would be seen in a much more favorable light

but to answer the op's question, harden is closer to jordan

Harden has

1. Won a regular season MVP before
2. Only ever "lost" the MVP award to other black players, unless you are delusional enough to think he deserved either of the last two that Jokic won

So what the hell does race have to do with anything?

You would be the delusional one if you don’t think steph curry being ambiguous/lightskin doesn’t help him over guys like harden when it comes to end of season voting

I could make a legit argument that harden has been screwed outta multiple end of season awards since Adam silver became commishner.

These nba media members like Zach lowe/ bill simmons identify with guys who have the skin tone of curry, Luka, Giannis over guys who are hardens skintone.

Just think for a quick second who are the current villains in the league and what do they have in common. Kawhi, Durant, harden, draymond, kyrie, lebron, etc

Meanwhile when it comes to criticizing lightskin players like Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons abd yes even Stephen curry. We get pushback from the same people that are going in on the aforementioned players that I just named previously

Harden bottomline should have made all nba 2nd team in 2016, and in 2021

Harden should have won mvp in 2017 and 2019

I just told you curry finished top 3 in mvp voting in 2021 and didn’t even make the playoffs. When has that happened in history. You are overlooking the fact that even realgm favors lightskin/white nba players in head to head polls againist darker skinned players outside of lebron and jordan

[NBA4Lyfe]

You are a harden hater and James harden despite spending his first 3 years coming of the bench has amassed more career points, win shares, assists, vorp and has a higher career bpm than Stephen curry

Both curry and harden were drafted in 2009

Shaqtin a fool mvp, yea the guy who ruined an Emmy nominated show in inside the nba and currently has chuck wanting to leave for the LIV Golf tour. That show went down the toilet the second snaquille was added as a member. Good luck with draymond as a Barkley replacement tnt

Yes sir, because I state Harden is a below average defender that makes me a hater

I don't even like Shaq, in fact I dislike Shaq and couldn't care less about whether he's on TV, but that doesn't change the fact that Harden stars in his segment on the regular and it's based on his defense....or lack thereof

Where are the stats to back up you’re argument. Another poster already came at you and debunked you’re argument using hardens career defensive win shares and defensive bpm. You got nothing but memes and gifs. Give up you lost

[NBA4Lyfe]

Produce numbers and stats. Not memes and things to make you’re argument or give up. At this point you making yourself look worse with each post

Yes sir, I would very much like to continue debating this subject with you. I'm sure if I waste my time making an argument with stats and numbers you will change your position as you seem like a very reasonable and non-biased individual. Harden is the greatest scorer ever, he might only do 1 thing better than Jordan (3 point shooting) but we should ignore everything else and nominate him the most elite scorer of all time

ALL HAIL HARDON!

You debate with emotions not facts. Therefore you already lost

[NBA4Lyfe]

i would say peak iverson. Harden didn't lead his teams to playoff wins, which is mostly what iverson did. Both were the best offensive players in the league, but not the best players in the league. Both didn't care to play defense. DD was never the best offensive player in the league, but from the two options given, is the closer choice. It would be insane to compare him to MJ. maybe his first couple of years or something.

I’m starting to question if any of the posters here are aware of basketball reference. In what way is harden and iverson comparable. Iverson was not as efficient as harden in the slightest. Basketball reference similarity score matches iverson with Westbrook

[FreeThrowLine]

You are a harden hater and James harden despite spending his first 3 years coming of the bench has amassed more career points, win shares, assists, vorp and has a higher career bpm than Stephen curry

Both curry and harden were drafted in 2009

Shaqtin a fool mvp, yea the guy who ruined an Emmy nominated show in inside the nba and currently has chuck wanting to leave for the LIV Golf tour. That show went down the toilet the second snaquille was added as a member. Good luck with draymond as a Barkley replacement tnt

Yes sir, because I state Harden is a below average defender that makes me a hater

I don't even like Shaq, in fact I dislike Shaq and couldn't care less about whether he's on TV, but that doesn't change the fact that Harden stars in his segment on the regular and it's based on his defense....or lack thereof

Where are the stats to back up you’re argument. Another poster already came at you and debunked you’re argument using hardens career defensive win shares and defensive bpm. You got nothing but memes and gifs. Give up you lost

Yes sir, I lost an argument to someone that doesn't even know the difference between your and you're

I also lost an argument because someone provided a single advanced stat that didn't disprove anything I said about Harden being a below average defender and even that poster realised how ridiculous that stat was as he was giving examples.

I am a rational fan that has no hate or love for Harden and I have seen more than enough to know he's a bad defender. You are a biased, irrational fan of Harden because he plays for your team, you choose to ignore the countless examples provided of him playing terrible defense because somehow we need to look for some stats that show this when we can simply watch the guy give up on defense time and time again? Makes sense....

[FreeThrowLine]

You debate with emotions not facts. Therefore you already lost

The irony....I have no emotions towards Harden, I have repeatedly told you I don't care about him, but you have decided I'm a hater because I think he's a below average defender.

I lost? No, lost is this guy on defense

[FreeThrowLine]

You would be the delusional one if you don’t think steph curry being ambiguous/lightskin doesn’t help him over guys like harden when it comes to end of season voting

I could make a legit argument that harden has been screwed outta multiple end of season awards since Adam silver became commishner.

These nba media members like Zach lowe/ bill simmons identify with guys who have the skin tone of curry, Luka, Giannis over guys who are hardens skintone.

Just think for a quick second who are the current villains in the league and what do they have in common. Kawhi, Durant, harden, draymond, kyrie, lebron, etc

Meanwhile when it comes to criticizing lightskin players like Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons abd yes even Stephen curry. We get pushback from the same people that are going in on the aforementioned players that I just named previously

Harden bottomline should have made all nba 2nd team in 2016, and in 2021

Harden should have won mvp in 2017 and 2019

I just told you curry finished top 3 in mvp voting in 2021 and didn’t even make the playoffs. When has that happened in history. You are overlooking the fact that even realgm favors lightskin/white nba players in head to head polls againist darker skinned players outside of lebron and jordan

Yes because no one ever criticizes Simmons or Davis

[DavidSterned]

harden is also not popular with the white nba media voters who vote on end of year awards

harden has been screwed outta mvp in 2017 and definetly 2019 nba mvp. if steph curry had those same seasons againist the competiton harden went up againist those years, curry likely wins mvp just because of how popular he is among white media members. Hell stephen curry finished 3rd in mvp and didnt even make the playoffs in 2021

harden on the other hand was left off all nba in 2016 despite average 29/7/6 and leading the nba in total points scored. Also was left off all nba in 2021 despite playing 44 games, when lebron made all nba playing 45 games

harden has been up againist it his entire career from the nba media, and if he played in a sport where the voting had no bias, like the nfl, nhl or mlb his career likely would be seen in a much more favorable light

but to answer the op's question, harden is closer to jordan

Harden has

1. Won a regular season MVP before
2. Only ever "lost" the MVP award to other black players, unless you are delusional enough to think he deserved either of the last two that Jokic won

So what the hell does race have to do with anything?

You would be the delusional one if you don’t think steph curry being ambiguous/lightskin doesn’t help him over guys like harden when it comes to end of season voting

I could make a legit argument that harden has been screwed outta multiple end of season awards since Adam silver became commishner.

These nba media members like Zach lowe/ bill simmons identify with guys who have the skin tone of curry, Luka, Giannis over guys who are hardens skintone.

Just think for a quick second who are the current villains in the league and what do they have in common. Kawhi, Durant, harden, draymond, kyrie, lebron, etc

Meanwhile when it comes to criticizing lightskin players like Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons abd yes even Stephen curry. We get pushback from the same people that are going in on the aforementioned players that I just named previously

Harden bottomline should have made all nba 2nd team in 2016, and in 2021

Harden should have won mvp in 2017 and 2019

I just told you curry finished top 3 in mvp voting in 2021 and didn’t even make the playoffs. When has that happened in history. You are overlooking the fact that even realgm favors lightskin/white nba players in head to head polls againist darker skinned players outside of lebron and jordan

[bebopdeluxe]

Yes sir, because I state Harden is a below average defender that makes me a hater

I don't even like Shaq, in fact I dislike Shaq and couldn't care less about whether he's on TV, but that doesn't change the fact that Harden stars in his segment on the regular and it's based on his defense....or lack thereof

Where are the stats to back up you’re argument. Another poster already came at you and debunked you’re argument using hardens career defensive win shares and defensive bpm. You got nothing but memes and gifs. Give up you lost

Yes sir, I lost an argument to someone that doesn't even know the difference between your and you're

I also lost an argument because someone provided a single advanced stat that didn't disprove anything I said about Harden being a below average defender and even that poster realised how ridiculous that stat was as he was giving examples.

I am a rational fan that has no hate or love for Harden and I have seen more than enough to know he's a bad defender. You are a biased, irrational fan of Harden because he plays for your team, you choose to ignore the countless examples provided of him playing terrible defense because somehow we need to look for some stats that show this when we can simply watch the guy give up on defense time and time again? Makes sense....

Don’t misrepresent what I said. I challenged you to produce ANY STAT YOU CAN FIND to support your “eye test”/gut feel weak-sauce ish about Harden’s “below average” defense.

YOU PRODUCED SQUAT.

Nothing. Zilch. ZERO.

I have no idea how good stats like defensive win shares and DBPM are. There may be better advanced defensive metrics that can take that 6 year, 1.3 DBPM/3.5+ defensive win shares average and disprove all of it, but if you can’t produce them you have NOTHING.

[FreeThrowLine]

Where are the stats to back up you’re argument. Another poster already came at you and debunked you’re argument using hardens career defensive win shares and defensive bpm. You got nothing but memes and gifs. Give up you lost

Yes sir, I lost an argument to someone that doesn't even know the difference between your and you're

I also lost an argument because someone provided a single advanced stat that didn't disprove anything I said about Harden being a below average defender and even that poster realised how ridiculous that stat was as he was giving examples.

I am a rational fan that has no hate or love for Harden and I have seen more than enough to know he's a bad defender. You are a biased, irrational fan of Harden because he plays for your team, you choose to ignore the countless examples provided of him playing terrible defense because somehow we need to look for some stats that show this when we can simply watch the guy give up on defense time and time again? Makes sense....

Don’t misrepresent what I said. I challenged you to produce ANY STAT YOU CAN FIND to support your “eye test”/gut feel weak-sauce ish about Harden’s “below average” defense.

YOU PRODUCED SQUAT.

Nothing. Zilch. ZERO.

I have no idea how good stats like defensive win shares and DBPM are. There may be better advanced defensive metrics that can take that 6 year, 1.3 DBPM/3.5+ defensive win shares average, but if you can’t produce them you have NOTHING.

Ah OK, I must be making up the part where you wrote the below, sorry for misrepresenting you by taking exactly what you wrote below and assuming you meant that you too could see how the stat could give misleading results

Klay Thompson (a guy who was always thought of as a "great" defender): -1.1 DBPM (erk)
Kobe Bryant: -0.1 DBPM (maybe this stat isn't very good after all...)

[FreeThrowLine]

I have no idea how good stats like defensive win shares and DBPM are. There may be better advanced defensive metrics that can take that 6 year, 1.3 DBPM/3.5+ defensive win shares average and disprove all of it, but if you can’t produce them you have NOTHING.

Neither do I, so I had a quick look and apparently Harden was a better defender than Sefolosha in OKC, and better than Ariza, Tucker, Paul and Capela in Houston..so now I know how good a stat it is....

Just like any advanced stat, there has to be some common sense and anyone with common sense would know that Harden isn't close to being the defender that someone like Sefolosha was, so the stat is influenced somewhere whether it being playing time alongside guys like Dwight Howard and Asik or Ibaka.

Whatever it is, I don't need a stat to tell me the guy is lazy on defense and gives up on too many plays. Too often he plays defense like it's an Allstar game.

But I'm a HaTeR

[NBA4Lyfe]

You debate with emotions not facts. Therefore you already lost

The irony....I have no emotions towards Harden, I have repeatedly told you I don't care about him, but you have decided I'm a hater because I think he's a below average defender.

I lost? No, lost is this guy on defense

Where are your stats, what’s you’re argument. You must have been terrible in debate class.

[NBA4Lyfe]

I have no idea how good stats like defensive win shares and DBPM are. There may be better advanced defensive metrics that can take that 6 year, 1.3 DBPM/3.5+ defensive win shares average and disprove all of it, but if you can’t produce them you have NOTHING.

Neither do I, so I had a quick look and apparently Harden was a better defender than Sefolosha in OKC, and better than Ariza, Tucker, Paul and Capela in Houston..so now I know how good a stat it is....

Just like any advanced stat, there has to be some common sense and anyone with common sense would know that Harden isn't close to being the defender that someone like Sefolosha was, so the stat is influenced somewhere whether it being playing time alongside guys like Dwight Howard and Asik or Ibaka.

Whatever it is, I don't need a stat to tell me the guy is lazy on defense and gives up on too many plays. Too often he plays defense like it's an Allstar game.

But I'm a HaTeR

Quick how many blocks and steals per game does harden average per season as a STARTER for his career

[NBA4Lyfe]

You would be the delusional one if you don’t think steph curry being ambiguous/lightskin doesn’t help him over guys like harden when it comes to end of season voting

I could make a legit argument that harden has been screwed outta multiple end of season awards since Adam silver became commishner.

These nba media members like Zach lowe/ bill simmons identify with guys who have the skin tone of curry, Luka, Giannis over guys who are hardens skintone.

Just think for a quick second who are the current villains in the league and what do they have in common. Kawhi, Durant, harden, draymond, kyrie, lebron, etc

Meanwhile when it comes to criticizing lightskin players like Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons abd yes even Stephen curry. We get pushback from the same people that are going in on the aforementioned players that I just named previously

Harden bottomline should have made all nba 2nd team in 2016, and in 2021

Harden should have won mvp in 2017 and 2019

I just told you curry finished top 3 in mvp voting in 2021 and didn’t even make the playoffs. When has that happened in history. You are overlooking the fact that even realgm favors lightskin/white nba players in head to head polls againist darker skinned players outside of lebron and jordan

Yes because no one ever criticizes Simmons or Davis

Simmons won rookie of the year over the more deserving Donovan Mitchell

How many analysts criticize how much Anthony Davis is making in comparison to how many games he misses a year when you contrast that with kawhi or kyrie( who the media grills)

[bebopdeluxe]

I have no idea how good stats like defensive win shares and DBPM are. There may be better advanced defensive metrics that can take that 6 year, 1.3 DBPM/3.5+ defensive win shares average and disprove all of it, but if you can’t produce them you have NOTHING.

Neither do I, so I had a quick look and apparently Harden was a better defender than Sefolosha in OKC, and better than Ariza, Tucker, Paul and Capela in Houston..so now I know how good a stat it is....

Just like any advanced stat, there has to be some common sense and anyone with common sense would know that Harden isn't close to being the defender that someone like Sefolosha was, so the stat is influenced somewhere whether it being playing time alongside guys like Dwight Howard and Asik or Ibaka.

Whatever it is, I don't need a stat to tell me the guy is lazy on defense and gives up on too many plays. Too often he plays defense like it's an Allstar game.

But I'm a HaTeR

Michael Jordan had a 5 year stretch from 1986-87 to 1990-91 where he averaged better than a 3 DBPM - which is insane for a guard. I bet those numbers were not some kind of fluke - it reflected the fact that Jordan was the best perimeter defender in the NBA.

I spent some time trying to find historical stats that may be better than DBPM or DWS. They are out ther - DRAPM, DRPM (ESPN), 538’s DRAYMOND, and there are others. I tried to find historical stats for some of these metrics for Harden, but I couldn’t figure out how to do it. And I assure you, if those stats said that during the 6 year period that I have highlighted that Harden sucked as a defender, I would have posted it.

The analytic community all agree that most commonly used individual defensive stats in the NBA are suboptimal, but those years that Jordan averaged more than a 3 DBPM was probably not a coincidence. As I said, if you can find stats that are better than DBPM and DWS that say Harden sucked those years, I am happy to stand down and acknowledge that I am wrong. I am good that way.

[FreeThrowLine]

Where are your stats, what’s you’re argument. You must have been terrible in debate class.

I'm guessing you didn't do too well in your English class

Debate class...you must be 12 to even talk like that

[FreeThrowLine]

Quick how many blocks and steals per game does harden average per season as a STARTER for his career

Because blocks and steals are the best way to judge a defender and totally take into account all the times they've been a sieve on defense

[NBA4Lyfe]

Where are your stats, what’s you’re argument. You must have been terrible in debate class.

I'm guessing you didn't do too well in your English class

Debate class...you must be 12 to even talk like that

Autocorrect

But why can’t you stay on topic, basketball reference is free

[NBA4Lyfe]

Quick how many blocks and steals per game does harden average per season as a STARTER for his career

Because blocks and steals are the best way to judge a defender and totally take into account all the times they've been a sieve on defense

Blocks, steals, defensive box plus minus, and defensive win shares have been used for years in the nba. If the numbers say harden was as good a defender as rondo and wade why should we argue it

[FreeThrowLine]

Michael Jordan had a 5 year stretch from 1986-87 to 1990-91 where he averaged better than a 3 DBPM - which is insane for a guard. I bet those numbers were not some kind of fluke - it reflected the fact that Jordan was the best perimeter defender in the NBA.

I spent some time trying to find historical stats that may be better than DBPM or DWS. They are out ther - DRAPM, DRPM (ESPN), 538’s DRAYMOND, and there are others. I tried to find historical stats for some of these metrics for Harden, but I couldn’t figure out how to do it. And I assure you, if those stats said that during the 6 year period that I have highlighted that Harden sucked as a defender, I would have posted it.

The analytic community all agree that most commonly used individual defensive stats in the NBA are suboptimal, but those years that Jordan averaged more than a 3 DBPM was probably not a coincidence. As I said, if you can find stats that are better than DBPM and DWS that say Harden sucked those years, I am happy to stand down and acknowledge that I am wrong. I am good that way.

I don't have enough experience with the stat nor would I ever say that any stat (advanced or standard) is completely worthless, BUT there will always be instances that an undeserving player will show up higher or lower in the rankings. I seem to recall a defensive stat that showed Carlos Boozer as one of the best defensive PF's one season, and I LOVE Boozer but he belonged nowhere near the top of the list.

I'm sure the usual suspects that you expect will end up in the top of such stats, otherwise the stat wouldn't have made it past the testing stages but that doesn't mean that others won't end up out of place due to other factors, possibly who they play alongside etc.

It also possibly doesn't give all the context, let's say a player is being lazy on defense on the perimeter and the guy they're defending blows right past them, gets to the basket and misses the shot, gets blocked or kicks it out to someone that misses. I assume that scenario doesn't register any negative impact to the lazy/bad defense that was played.