NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (part 4 - The Final MVP Countdown!)

[eyeatoma]

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I mean...Jokic is not the one to be going after in the clutch considering he's been better in the clutch their whole careers lol...

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Maybe your 1 game sample size is more significant to you though

Here's a look at their play in the clutch this season:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*jokic&PerMode=Totals&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=GP

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*embiid&PerMode=Totals&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=-1&sort=GP

Joel Embiid led the league in clutch points last year.

[Infinite Llamas]

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?t=7p_mD-T8INVCSiwJ8EHmGg&s=19

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Thank god that the 76ers have two top-10 MVP guys is all I have to say. Things would look really ugly if you swapped Harden out for Murray.

[DutchManDanFan]

The entire premise of that "advanced stats" argument is flawed.

Here's the top 20 VORP

1. Nikola Jokić • DEN 7.5
2. Luka Dončić • DAL 6.0
3. Joel Embiid • PHI 4.9
4. Jimmy Butler • MIA 4.6
5. Damian Lillard • POR 4.6
6. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander • OKC 4.6
7. Jayson Tatum • BOS 4.3
8. Donovan Mitchell • CLE 4.3
9. Giannis Antetokounmpo • MIL 4.3
10. Tyrese Haliburton • IND 4.2
11. Domantas Sabonis • SAC 4.2
12. Julius Randle • NYK 3.9
13. James Harden • PHI 3.7
14. Stephen Curry • GSW 3.7
15. Ja Morant • MEM 3.6
16. Kevin Durant • TOT 3.5
17. LeBron James • LAL 3.5
18. Jalen Brunson • NYK 3.3
19. Lauri Markkanen • UTA 3.1
20. Anthony Davis • LAL 3.0

Where are all these scrubs that advanced stats are propping up?

VORP is the worst if you try to compare the best players. But you put it first. Many posters claimed Giannis has a down year. Probably because of this stupid stat. He’s only 9th here. I think he was lower before. The first half of the year he played a lot with the 2nd unit. And because of injuries the second unit were mainly scrubs. When Giannis sat, Bucks were playing with 3 starters most of the time. And opposing teams got their best defenders out when Giannis sat. Jokic on the other hand plays mainly with the starters.
If you understand what the impact is on a stat like VORP with the difference in approach then you understand it’s pretty useless.

[Infinite Llamas]

And suddenly team success will no longer matter.

How much of those team wins did Embiid sit out?

[Infinite Llamas]

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One plays with Harden, one plays with Murray.

Yup, one is definitely not like the other

[Infinite Llamas]

Jokic has the ballhawk mentality of guys like Payton and Blaylock but he’s in a centers body. He would be an amazing perimeter defender with a different frame based on his intelligence and fast hands. He’s clearly miscast as a rim protector. He gives up layups because he’s too important to his team to be in foul trouble. He will never be a great defender, but he does enough things well that makes him passable.

Lol, you seriously just compared Jokic to Gary freaking Payton. WOW!

If he had a build like those guys? Sure. His hand/eye coordination is amazing. He would be picking pockets with faster foot speed. Obviously hypothetical but the defensive instincts are there, but his body type isn’t ideal for a perimeter defender… obviously.

[eyeatoma]

Jokic has the ballhawk mentality of guys like Payton and Blaylock but he’s in a centers body. He would be an amazing perimeter defender with a different frame based on his intelligence and fast hands. He’s clearly miscast as a rim protector. He gives up layups because he’s too important to his team to be in foul trouble. He will never be a great defender, but he does enough things well that makes him passable.

Lol, you seriously just compared Jokic to Gary freaking Payton. WOW!

If he had a build like those guys? Sure. His hand/eye coordination is amazing. He would be picking pockets with faster foot speed. Obviously hypothetical but the defensive instincts are there, but his body type isn’t ideal for a perimeter defender… obviously.

This is like saying if Allen Iverson were 6'6 he would be the greatest player ever. Lots of hypotheticals we can make. You play with the hand that's dealt to you. He has some good instincts I'll give you that, but they are not even close to the ferocity that Gary Payton played with. It's an insult to "the Glove" to compare the two.

[Floody100]

You 76ers fans on this topic are a bunch of cowards.
Quiet as a mouse on here when you guys lost 3 out of 4 & then as soon as the Nuggets lose a couple in a row you can’t help yourselves lol

Don't insult other posters. It's a violation of RGM policy. -b

[Wolfgang630]

Man this race gonna be close I think. I think because idk what these voters be thinking about. They’ll have to see how great Embiid is and Jokic is. They’ll probably have similar records that it doesn’t matter.

Then you have to look at their cast of teammates.

[eyeatoma]

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A little subjective because it's one person's rankings, but it proves the point on how weak the West is.

[Cubbies2120]

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A little subjective because it's one person's rankings, but it proves the point on how weak the West is.

Let's remember how into Vegas odds you were last year, and how those were so important.

Vegas has 7 of the top 10 teams to win the title in the West.

After the top 3 in the East, the dropoff is significant. I think the WC would gladly trade the Mavs/Suns/Warriors over to the Eastern Conference for their 4th seed or worse teams

[Black star]

35 20 and 11 with 2 blocks and 2 steals while being +14 in a game that came down to the final shot hardly seems like the time to act like Jokic isn't MVP worthy.

With that being said I don't think seeding should be used as part of the Jokic argument anymore. This is the weakest western conference in at least a decade. Denver would be 3rd in the East and they have a 5 game advantage over their next closest team. The 2nd place Kings wouldn't even have homecourt if they switched conferences.

[Cubbies2120]

Man this race gonna be close I think. I think because idk what these voters be thinking about. They’ll have to see how great Embiid is and Jokic is. They’ll probably have similar records that it doesn’t matter.

Then you have to look at their cast of teammates.

Embiid gonna have brutal schedules to close out the year

Final 10 games for Sixers:
Group 1 (Contenders): Bucks, Celtics, Nuggets, Mavs, Warriors, Suns
Group 2 (Teams fighting for playoff position): Heat, Hawks, Nets, Raptors

[Wolfgang630]

Man this race gonna be close I think. I think because idk what these voters be thinking about. They’ll have to see how great Embiid is and Jokic is. They’ll probably have similar records that it doesn’t matter.

Then you have to look at their cast of teammates.

Embiid gonna have brutal schedules to close out the year

Final 10 games for Sixers:
Group 1 (Contenders): Bucks, Celtics, Nuggets, Mavs, Warriors, Suns
Group 2 (Teams fighting for playoff position): Heat, Hawks, Nets, Raptors

This will be fun to watch.

[Dirk]

Man this race gonna be close I think. I think because idk what these voters be thinking about. They’ll have to see how great Embiid is and Jokic is. They’ll probably have similar records that it doesn’t matter.

Then you have to look at their cast of teammates.

Embiid gonna have brutal schedules to close out the year

Final 10 games for Sixers:
Group 1 (Contenders): Bucks, Celtics, Nuggets, Mavs, Warriors, Suns
Group 2 (Teams fighting for playoff position): Heat, Hawks, Nets, Raptors

[csh 19792001]

You 76ers fans on this topic are a bunch of cowards.
Quiet as a mouse on here when you guys lost 3 out of 4 & then as soon as the Nuggets lose a couple in a row you can’t help yourselves lol

Yep. Exactly!!!

Bunch of totally obnoxious, angry, jealous, petty, ignorant little people.

Embiid will never win and MVP missing 15-40+ games a year. And- because of mass consensus at to whom is best, yet again, he's not going to win for the third straight year. He doesn't deserve it, and 80% of people here, and in the media, agree.

And these clowns simply cannot get over it. So they spam this thread endlessly and make it insufferable.

Don't attack other posters. It's a violation of RGM policy. Debate the post, don't just throw insults around. The thread is insufferable largely because of posts like this. -b

[Wolfgang630]

When the next straw poll coming out?

[Purch]

Giannis-52 games played
Embiid -53 games played
Jokic-59 games played

People are really overstating games missed for Embiid some reason.

[HotRocks34]

When the next straw poll coming out?

Don't think there is one. Likely will just go to the vote.

I could be wrong.

[HotRocks34]

I think there are 2 MVP straw polls done each year.

December (2 months into the season)
February (2 months later)

And then there's the spreadsheet tracking where people start going on shows and saying who they voted for. April being the end of the season and 2 months after the Feb straw poll.