Who Would You Rather Have: Shaedon Sharpe or Jaime Jaquez Jr

[DBurks2818]

I am kind of surprised Heat fans haven't gotten a little bit of humility after this past off-season

Most of the ones in this thread have been respectful and rational. I know you didn’t mean to generalize but I wanted to point that out. Most Heat fans are happy with how everything turned out so far.

[WillyJakkz]

Portland is doing a disservice to Sharpe's development by cycling in these other PG's & Guards that play small ball SF.

Portland drafted Scoot, stick with it don't keep forcing Simons in to start when Scott was not playing well and got injured.

Simons shoots first asks questions later, Brogdon can run an offense and can help Sharpe develop but he doesn't want to be on a losing team at this stage of his career.

And of course it's a valid comparison as Sharpe does play small ball SF/ 3rd wingman in a position less era for most teams.

Portland fans are being overly sensitive to believe otherwise.

[Rendei]

Give me Jaquez all day. I don't care what your "needs" are. Potential is overrated. That's why dudes like Mitchell and Brunson went overlooked, because they were "old." Production is king. Jaquez is a winning player now, as a rookie. He's an older rookie, but he's still young. He's going to get better. I don't buy into the idea that Sharpe has the higher ceiling just because he's younger, either.

He doesn’t have a higher ceiling because he’s younger. He has a higher ceiling because he has athletic gifts that Jaquez (and most of the league for that matter) doesn’t have.

If both players managed to maximize every ounce of talent they have, Sharpe would be better. That’s what a ceiling is.

Please understand that I like Sharpe. I hope he becomes a great player, and I think he has a chance. But I'm not convinced he has a better chance than Jaquez. What Sharpe has in physical gifts, I feel that Jaquez has in basketball gifts. People who are just very good at the game of basketball, like say Curry or Jokic, will shine in spite of not having a world class physical profile. I'm not saying that Jaquez is as good as those two, but it's the same general concept.

And maybe my eye is crap. Very possible. But that's what it's telling me so far.

[rate_]

Jaquez has a better feel for the game, which to me matters more than any athletic advantage that Sharpe may possess. There are a number of superstar-level NBA players thriving that are not uber athletic. Also, Jaquez is 22, not 27. He still has some room to grow on both sides, though he already has a feel for the game that simply cannot be taught. Once he starts to get a bigger role on offense, it will be interesting how his numbers will look. Right now, he's in contention for 6MOY without plays being ran for him. Bam/Jimmy/Herro missed a combined 35 games already this season yet Heat are able to sustain a TOP 4 seed much because of him (hasn't missed any games) and Duncan Robinson.

[DiegoChara]

Give me Jaquez all day. I don't care what your "needs" are. Potential is overrated. That's why dudes like Mitchell and Brunson went overlooked, because they were "old." Production is king. Jaquez is a winning player now, as a rookie. He's an older rookie, but he's still young. He's going to get better. I don't buy into the idea that Sharpe has the higher ceiling just because he's younger, either.

He doesn’t have a higher ceiling because he’s younger. He has a higher ceiling because he has athletic gifts that Jaquez (and most of the league for that matter) doesn’t have.

If both players managed to maximize every ounce of talent they have, Sharpe would be better. That’s what a ceiling is.

Please understand that I like Sharpe. I hope he becomes a great player, and I think he has a chance. But I'm not convinced he has a better chance than Jaquez. What Sharpe has in physical gifts, I feel that Jaquez has in basketball gifts. People who are just very good at the game of basketball, like say Curry or Jokic, will shine in spite of not having a world class physical profile. I'm not saying that Jaquez is as good as those two, but it's the same general concept.

And maybe my eye is crap. Very possible. But that's what it's telling me so far.

I like Jaquez too. I’m a west coast guy, so I watched him play a ton at UCLA. I’m very familiar with his game and expect he’ll be a very good pro.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, I’m just a little baffled that Heat fans won’t at least concede Sharpe has a higher upside. I truly think it’s a bizarre position.

But hey, we all get attached to our guys and our hopes for them.

[rate_]

Spoiler:

He doesn’t have a higher ceiling because he’s younger. He has a higher ceiling because he has athletic gifts that Jaquez (and most of the league for that matter) doesn’t have.

If both players managed to maximize every ounce of talent they have, Sharpe would be better. That’s what a ceiling is.

Please understand that I like Sharpe. I hope he becomes a great player, and I think he has a chance. But I'm not convinced he has a better chance than Jaquez. What Sharpe has in physical gifts, I feel that Jaquez has in basketball gifts. People who are just very good at the game of basketball, like say Curry or Jokic, will shine in spite of not having a world class physical profile. I'm not saying that Jaquez is as good as those two, but it's the same general concept.

And maybe my eye is crap. Very possible. But that's what it's telling me so far.

I like Jaquez too. I’m a west coast guy, so I watched him play a ton at UCLA. I’m very familiar with his game and expect he’ll be a very good pro.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, I’m just a little baffled that Heat fans won’t at least concede Sharpe has a higher upside. I truly think it’s a bizarre position.

But hey, we all get attached to our guys and our hopes for them.

Sharpe does have a higher upside, but it isn't as wide as people are making out to be. People saying Jaquez ceiling is a high end role player is disingenuous given the fact one can argue he already is one. Are we really saying Jaquez is peaked/near peaked at 22?

[DayofMourning]

Ceiling is misinterpreted because it basically says that everyone will proceed in their career on some type of linear path.

The highly touted 18 year olds wont automatically have a higher ceiling because they can jump through the rafters. Similar prospects, one with super jumps and one with super IQ, wont develop the same, and in no way should they be gifted some label of higher ceiling because theyre bouncy. Id go with the high IQ guy more times than not. That player will likely understand how to "impact" the game better.

[rate_]

Let's look at some of the SFs in the NBA when they were 22, that peaked as a minimum TOP 20 player sometime in thier career. As a reminder, these are Jaquez stats:

Jaquez: 14/4/3 | 60.7 TS% (Heat are currently 4th in East)

Now, let's look at some random names:

Kawhi: 13/6/2 | 60.2 TS% (Spurs TOP seed and won chip; Kawhi FMVP)
Middleton: 12/4/2 | 54.1 TS% (Bucks finished last in East)
PG13: 17/8/4 | 53.1 TS% | (Pacers finished 3rd seed in East)
Hayward: 14/3/3 | 56.4 TS% | (Jazz finished 9th in West)
Giannis: 23/9/5 | 59.9% TS | (Bucks finished 6th in East)

Just judging by the posted numbers, none of these players came close to their finished product at 22.

There were a few players that posted similar scoring efficiency like Miles Bridges, but their roles on offense weren't as big and their teams weren't close to contending.

[WillyJakkz]

just realized spell correct changed Jaime to Jamie in the op and Poll

Corrected but left the poll untouched due to it resetting the votes.

[deepeeenn]

Let's look at some of the SFs in the NBA when they were 22, that peaked as a minimum TOP 20 player sometime in thier career. As a reminder, these are Jaquez stats:

Jaquez: 14/4/3 | 60.7 TS% (Heat are currently 4th in East)

Now, let's look at some random names:

Kawhi: 13/6/2 | 60.2 TS% (Spurs TOP seed and won chip; Kawhi FMVP)
Middleton: 12/4/2 | 54.1 TS% (Bucks finished last in East)
PG13: 17/8/4 | 53.1 TS% | (Pacers finished 3rd seed in East)
Hayward: 14/3/3 | 56.4 TS% | (Jazz finished 9th in West)
Giannis: 23/9/5 | 59.9% TS | (Bucks finished 6th in East)

Just judging by the posted numbers, none of these players came close to their finished product at 22.

There were a few players that posted similar scoring efficiency like Miles Bridges, but their roles on offense weren't as big and their teams weren't close to contending.

Not all players continue to get better though and there are plenty of 22 yr old rookies in league’s history that fizzled out or didn’t continue to develop. I have no problem repeating that I like Jaime, he’s clearly a baller and has shown good polished feel for the game. But it’s a bit disingenuous to toss all those names out as if they were comparable to him, more so insinuating ‘he’s on the path to being a Top 20 player, so here are where other top 20 SFs were at age 22.’ You’re criterium or pool of players starts off with Top 20 SFs where as a more realistic depiction of career growth would be to find all 22yr old rookies and then graph their career arcs to find what the average is and then from that list identify more comparable players.

That being said, one of your last points is entirely correct “none of these players came close to their finished product at 22” and that includes Shae who’s not even 21 yet. So while it’s fun to try and predict, it is can be absolute nonsense in the end.

[deepeeenn]

Ceiling is misinterpreted because it basically says that everyone will proceed in their career on some type of linear path.

The highly touted 18 year olds wont automatically have a higher ceiling because they can jump through the rafters. Similar prospects, one with super jumps and one with super IQ, wont develop the same, and in no way should they be gifted some label of higher ceiling because theyre bouncy. Id go with the high IQ guy more times than not. That player will likely understand how to "impact" the game better.

As far as I’ve been watching the NBA and paying attention to drafts, ceiling is usually measured as a player optimizing his potential and generally it includes things that can not be taught. Which happens to be the physical attributes: height, length, speed, athleticism, etc. Some of that does change, players can sometimes get taller or longer, sometimes you can improve speed and sometimes you can improve athleticism. But there is a real cap on how much you can. Usually height and length can only increase if a player’s growth plates have not fused and that’s something that can still be possible to around 20 yrs old but they generally fuse before. So this is another reason why younger players can sometimes be more intriguing. Giannis grew after being drafted. Sometimes you can improve weight and conditioning and improve your speed and athleticism but it is unlikely you will become that much more athletic. That is historically why teams used to draft players high with limited skill but boatloads of athleticism thinking they could just teach them basketball. The sayings are “you can’t teach size” and “you can’t teach athleticism”. Whether that’s antiquated thinking is worth debating.

That said, we are getting to an era where skill is becoming increasingly valuable and prevalent. So much so that it’s hard to teach players in such little time. So having skill off the rip is very important, so Jaime has the leg up there right now but let’s not act as if Shae is some completely unskilled player.

[deepeeenn]

Portland is doing a disservice to Sharpe's development by cycling in these other PG's & Guards that play small ball SF.

Portland drafted Scoot, stick with it don't keep forcing Simons in to start when Scott was not playing well and got injured.

Simons shoots first asks questions later, Brogdon can run an offense and can help Sharpe develop but he doesn't want to be on a losing team at this stage of his career.

And of course it's a valid comparison as Sharpe does play small ball SF/ 3rd wingman in a position less era for most teams.

Portland fans are being overly sensitive to believe otherwise.

Not trying to derail this thread but I feel like you have some info wrong.

There aren’t really any other “PG’s & Guards” playing small ball SF in Portland. Blazers have Simons and Brogdon as combos but both play as one of a PG or SG on the court, Scoot as a PG and Skylar Mays as a PG. The only other player that plays as a SG/SF is Matisse Thybulle and he’s been largely playing off the bench. So Shae is the only player that at times will play SF as a SG when we roll out 3 guard lineups. Shae has entirely become the starting SG but he’s been sidelined with some soreness’s recently so he hasn’t been playing.

Both Scoot and Simons missed alot of overlapping time early on. So Brogdon started. Then Skylar Mays was signed when we only had Brog as our only reliable PG. Scoot had a really rough start to the season before he came back from his ankle injury, and it’s been beneficial for him to come off the bench since. We’re being very cautious with Brogdon right now in order to keep his trade value high. So Simons and Shae have been starting. Simons is not a PG but he’s the longest tenured Blazer and he’s earned the starting spot. Again we are a tanking team, so only develpment needs to make sense. There is a world where we want Simons’ value to be up incase we want to trade him, but some fans don’t agree.

As for the Shae and Jaime “valid comparison”? I think it was worth playing but I think lots has been said that voids the comp. They’re just too different to really compare at this stage.

[Nuntius]

Hmm, interesting question. I like both players a lot.

Sharpe has the tools to develop into a multi-time All-Star, maybe even a superstar. He does have that kind of sky-high upside.

Does Jaquez have that kind of upside? Honestly, I don't know. Projecting Sharpe's upside is easier due to his athletic tools. But with a guy like Jaquez, whose game is predicated on his feel for the game and skill level, you just never know.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. We'll see. To use Jimmy Butler as an example (because Jaquez has said that he models his game after him), there was very little indication that Butler would develop into a superstar. He was picked at #30 and averaged 8.5 MPG as a 22-year old rookie while only playing 42 games. He then found a spot in the rotation as a sophomore (at 23 years old) but he only really became a starter and key cog of that Chicago team at the tail end of the season. And he still had an auxiliary role throughout that season, averaging only 8.6 PPG. He was a full-time starter in his third season (24 years old by now) and he averaged 13.1 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 2.6 APG and 1.9 SPG. And then he upped his scoring again in his fourth season (as a 25 year old) when he finally averaged numbers that are close to what we know of him now (20 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 3.3 APG, 1.8 SPG and 0.6 BPG).

Now, granted, Jimmy Butler is the exception here. This career trajectory isn't the norm. But it does happen. And I do think players who rely on their feel for the game and their skill level are more likely to have an atypical career trajectory than normal, although, that is just my opinion and in no way am I saying that this is actually a fact.

So, I don't know. If I was starting from scratch then I'd probably pick Sharpe. If I'm not then I can see a lot of reasons for picking Jaquez. For example, if I had to pick a player right now for my Pacers, I'd probably pick Jaquez if I'm being honest.

[RaptorPride]

Sharpe

[dshearn]

Hmm, interesting question. I like both players a lot.

Sharpe has the tools to develop into a multi-time All-Star, maybe even a superstar. He does have that kind of sky-high upside.

Does Jaquez have that kind of upside? Honestly, I don't know. Projecting Sharpe's upside is easier due to his athletic tools. But with a guy like Jaquez, whose game is predicated on his feel for the game and skill level, you just never know.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. We'll see. To use Jimmy Butler as an example (because Jaquez has said that he models his game after him), there was very little indication that Butler would develop into a superstar. He was picked at #30 and averaged 8.5 MPG as a 22-year old rookie while only playing 42 games. He then found a spot in the rotation as a sophomore (at 23 years old) but he only really became a starter and key cog of that Chicago team at the tail end of the season. And he still had an auxiliary role throughout that season, averaging only 8.6 PPG. He was a full-time starter in his third season (24 years old by now) and he averaged 13.1 PPG, 4.9 RPG, 2.6 APG and 1.9 SPG. And then he upped his scoring again in his fourth season (as a 25 year old) when he finally averaged numbers that are close to what we know of him now (20 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 3.3 APG, 1.8 SPG and 0.6 BPG).

Now, granted, Jimmy Butler is the exception here. This career trajectory isn't the norm. But it does happen. And I do think players who rely on their feel for the game and their skill level are more likely to have an atypical career trajectory than normal, although, that is just my opinion and in no way am I saying that this is actually a fact.

So, I don't know. If I was starting from scratch then I'd probably pick Sharpe. If I'm not then I can see a lot of reasons for picking Jaquez. For example, if I had to pick a player right now for my Pacers, I'd probably pick Jaquez if I'm being honest.

make sense I suppose....

One caveat to throw in is that JJJ is already doing some things around the basket better than Prime Jimmy Butler. For starters he does not need set up time around the basket the way Jimmy does.... JJJ gets inside and pulls the trigger or passes out much quicker than Jimmy.


Right now to me, the eye test is telling me JJJ gets winded late in games...I don't know what the stats say about the dude when he goes over 32-34 minutes...but to me....it looks like he hits a wall. Once the dude has an offseason of serious cardio work I expect he is going to look much better.

[dolphinatik]

JJJ has been a marvel. Based on right now id rather have JJJ because I know he fits and will put in the work. He is also versatile. What makes him special is that he processes and makes decisions quickly. I could see a major regression coming from JJJ if he starts to let "team politics" get in the way causing him to stop playing freely to look for specific guys etc.