Nick Nurse Is Overrated

[Raps in 4]

Nick Nurse's playoff record since Kawhi left Toronto:

2020: Won 1st round vs. Brooklyn Nets minus 3 starters + rotation players who didn't want to go the bubble.
2021: Missed playoffs
2022: Lost in first round.
2023: Missed playoffs
2024: Lost in first round

I keep hearing "great coach" attached repeatedly to Nurse's name. This is not the resume of a great coach. Heck, Darvin Ham made WCF last year and he just got fired. Budenholzer has a championship, and multiple conference finals appearances with different franchises, and he's never mentioned in the same rarified air as Nurse.

In 2021 they went to game 7 aganst the Celtics, and lost that game by 5.

After that season, they lost Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka, and Norm. They also had injuries to key players for a few of the seasons.

The Raptors sucked post-2019 because of Masai, not because of Nurse.

[Jabroni Lames]

Nick Nurse's playoff record since Kawhi left Toronto:

2020: Won 1st round vs. Brooklyn Nets minus 3 starters + rotation players who didn't want to go the bubble.
2021: Missed playoffs
2022: Lost in first round.
2023: Missed playoffs
2024: Lost in first round

I keep hearing "great coach" attached repeatedly to Nurse's name. This is not the resume of a great coach. Heck, Darvin Ham made WCF last year and he just got fired. Budenholzer has a championship, and multiple conference finals appearances with different franchises, and he's never mentioned in the same rarified air as Nurse.

In 2021 they went to game 7 aganst the Celtics, and lost that game by 5.

After that season, they lost Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka, and Norm. They also had injuries to key players for a few of the seasons.

The Raptors sucked post-2019 because of Masai, not because of Nurse.

Therefore, by corrollary, Nurse won a championship only because of Masai building a GOAT defensive team + the luck of avoiding KD/Lebron.

So the best we can say about Nurse is that he "neutral". Don't attach that 'elite' tag to his name anymore, like Spo.

Nurse doesn't make any more of a difference than your average garden variety coach, like: Frank Vogel, Ty Lue, or soon-to-be-championship coach... Mazzulla or Kidd.

[Johnny Bball]

Nurse had some interesting ideas that the league never saw before and had a great first year. Since then he's come up with nothing/little that's original, his ego has repeatedly gotten bigger and in his own way so that he doesn't see it, and he had refused to take any risk/longer path to develop talent, or to even play an efficient bench.

I couldn't have asked for a better outcome this year.

[oldncreaky]

Nurse had some interesting ideas that the league never saw before and had a great first year. Since then he's come up with nothing/little that's original, his ego has repeatedly gotten bigger and in his own way so that he doesn't see it, and he had refused to take any risk/longer path to develop talent, or to even play an efficient bench.

I couldn't have asked for a better outcome this year.

Nurse brought a number of coaching adjustments to the league that are now so common that they are unremarkable. A few I can think of off the top of my head:
- junk defences such as box-and-1
- winning games with (much) worse shooting by winning the possession battle
- offensive rebounding based on wings crashing from the corners while bigs retreat

But the league adjusted, his stuff no longer provided enough of an edge by the 2022 playoffs, and now he just looks like a regular coach.

[Chuck Everett]

Some of these Raps' fans down bad.

[cupcakesnake]

Nurse had some interesting ideas that the league never saw before and had a great first year. Since then he's come up with nothing/little that's original, his ego has repeatedly gotten bigger and in his own way so that he doesn't see it, and he had refused to take any risk/longer path to develop talent, or to even play an efficient bench.

I couldn't have asked for a better outcome this year.

So you see Phili's injury luck this season as proof that firing Nurse was a good idea.

Phili was absolutely rolling when healthy. This feels like you're choosing an opportune moment to claim this victory.

I'm still high on Nurse and hope we get another chance to see him in the playoffs with a strong roster. I also consistently disagree with the Raps fans narrative about him not being a good development coach.

[Woodsanity]

Nurse is a solid coach but of course he is gonna be a scapegoat for the real problem....

[Johnny Bball]

Nurse had some interesting ideas that the league never saw before and had a great first year. Since then he's come up with nothing/little that's original, his ego has repeatedly gotten bigger and in his own way so that he doesn't see it, and he had refused to take any risk/longer path to develop talent, or to even play an efficient bench.

I couldn't have asked for a better outcome this year.

So you see Phili's injury luck this season as proof that firing Nurse was a good idea.

Phili was absolutely rolling when healthy. This feels like you're choosing an opportune moment to claim this victory.

I'm still high on Nurse and hope we get another chance to see him in the playoffs with a strong roster. I also consistently disagree with the Raps fans narrative about him not being a good development coach.

Toronto also consistently had more injuries when he was their coach. At this point we're well past coincidence.

Proof about firing Nurse? Keep up. Let's not change history and say anyone needed proof to fire him. Toronto didn't fire just Nurse, they watched him virtually quit on the team on live TV before the season ended, then they did as he wanted them to. And the FO was none to happy about it or having to do it.

He hasn't developed any player in the last 4 years, and actually hurt young players development, never giving them any real PT. I don't see how its a narrative when its actual history.

[cupcakesnake]

Nurse had some interesting ideas that the league never saw before and had a great first year. Since then he's come up with nothing/little that's original, his ego has repeatedly gotten bigger and in his own way so that he doesn't see it, and he had refused to take any risk/longer path to develop talent, or to even play an efficient bench.

I couldn't have asked for a better outcome this year.

So you see Phili's injury luck this season as proof that firing Nurse was a good idea.

Phili was absolutely rolling when healthy. This feels like you're choosing an opportune moment to claim this victory.

I'm still high on Nurse and hope we get another chance to see him in the playoffs with a strong roster. I also consistently disagree with the Raps fans narrative about him not being a good development coach.

Toronto also consistently had more injuries when he was their coach. At this point we're well past coincidence.

Proof about firing Nurse? Keep up. Let's not change history and say anyone needed proof to fire him. Toronto didn't fire just Nurse, they watched him virtually quit on the team on live TV before the season ended, then they did as he wanted them to. And the FO was none to happy about it or having to do it.

He hasn't developed any player in the last 4 years, and actually hurt young players development, never giving them any real PT. I don't see how its a narrative when its actual history.

Oh yeah hugely healthy year for the Raps in year 1 without Nurse. Barnes, Poeltl, Quickley barely missed any games. Also so crazy how injury prone Raptors (Lowry, OG, Kawhi, Ibaka) just became amazing pinnacles of health the moment they got away from Nurse.

The development stuff I just find hard to assign blame on that one. It's possible Nurse could have done more for some of those young guys, but they weren't ready to help a team that had expectations to make the playoffs and surprise people once they got there. All of those guys got chances here and there but none of them popped. I'm curious to see who you think deserved a better opportunity.

I feel I always have to remind some Raps fans that Nurse was the development guy for the bench mob boys (Siakam, Poeltl, FVV). Maybe those guys were always going to be good, and Malachi (or whoever you like here) was never going to be good. As fans we have no idea if the Raps had a talent problem or a development problem. Nurse has clearly overseen some big development stories, and has some development failures, just as Masai has some incredible draft finds and misses.

We really don't know for sure, but everyone seems to divide up the blame differently between coaching and front office.

[Johnny Bball]

Oh yeah hugely healthy year for the Raps in year 1 without Nurse. Barnes, Poeltl, Quickley barely missed any games. Also so crazy how injury prone Raptors (Lowry, OG, Kawhi, Ibaka) just became amazing pinnacles of health the moment they got away from Nurse.

The development stuff I just find hard to assign blame on that one. It's possible Nurse could have done more for some of those young guys, but they weren't ready to help a team that had expectations to make the playoffs and surprise people once they got there. All of those guys got chances here and there but none of them popped. I'm curious to see who you think deserved a better opportunity.

I feel I always have to remind some Raps fans that Nurse was the development guy for the bench mob boys (Siakam, Poeltl, FVV). Maybe those guys were always going to be good, and Malachi (or whoever you like here) was never going to be good. As fans we have no idea if the Raps had a talent problem or a development problem. Nurse has clearly overseen some big development stories, and has some development failures, just as Masai has some incredible draft finds and misses.

We really don't know for sure, but everyone seems to divide up the blame differently between coaching and front office.

Actually, he really wasn't. And that much more than 4 years ago and he wasn't the coach. Poeltl wasn't even on the team 4 years ago to develop. And they actually were healthier this year, compared to how bad they were the two years prior, they just turned on the tank. I'm not sure why I bother though when you know this team and everything elks better than raps fans obviously.

[ForeverTFC]

Nurse is so underrated. Zach Lowe once said on a podcast that a lot of teams preparing for matchups would watch Raptors games against their opponent to use Nurse's defensive game plan as inspiration.

He sucks at managing a difficult locker room dynamic w/ both players and his assistants. He couldn't get Lowry to buy in for a long time (most coaches couldn't, he only really responded to Masai), had fights with Siakam that got Siakam suspended, lost Scottie Barnes, banned his assistant coaches from talking to the media, and had a coupe attempt within his coaching staff his last year in Toronto. These are legitimate knocks. But to question his creativity and ability to game plan is beyond ridiculous; he's top 3 on this dimension and I would argue he's not 3.

[cupcakesnake]

Oh yeah hugely healthy year for the Raps in year 1 without Nurse. Barnes, Poeltl, Quickley barely missed any games. Also so crazy how injury prone Raptors (Lowry, OG, Kawhi, Ibaka) just became amazing pinnacles of health the moment they got away from Nurse.

The development stuff I just find hard to assign blame on that one. It's possible Nurse could have done more for some of those young guys, but they weren't ready to help a team that had expectations to make the playoffs and surprise people once they got there. All of those guys got chances here and there but none of them popped. I'm curious to see who you think deserved a better opportunity.

I feel I always have to remind some Raps fans that Nurse was the development guy for the bench mob boys (Siakam, Poeltl, FVV). Maybe those guys were always going to be good, and Malachi (or whoever you like here) was never going to be good. As fans we have no idea if the Raps had a talent problem or a development problem. Nurse has clearly overseen some big development stories, and has some development failures, just as Masai has some incredible draft finds and misses.

We really don't know for sure, but everyone seems to divide up the blame differently between coaching and front office.

Actually, he really wasn't. And that much more than 4 years ago and he wasn't the coach. Poeltl wasn't even on the team 4 years ago to develop. And they actually were healthier this year, compared to how bad they were the two years prior, they just turned on the tank. I'm not sure why I bother though when you know this team and everything elks better than raps fans obviously.

Nurse was and assistant coach for the Raptors starting in 2013, after spending a couple seasons coaching gleague teams.
In the summer before the 2018 season, Nick Nurse was tasked over the summer with developing a bench unit that had a different style than the Lowry/Derozan/Valanciunas starters. This was well documented at the time. I remember reading articles outlining the drills Nurse was running with them during the summer. Casey was so into it that he not only allowed hockey-style 5-man substitutions, but he also put Nurse in charge of the offense that season.

The Raps aren't "my team" but I do live in Toronto and have followed them as much as basically anyone. I used to even write columns for several Raptors blogs, so I think I'm qualified to talk Raps on realgm's General Board even if I'm not "a fan". I'm not just some random with Raptors opinions I'm making up on the spot.

I have my biases though. I have strongly disliked most eras of Raptors basketball (including this new one). Nurse, OG, and Siakam represent the Raps era I'm the most fond of. They're all gone and I'm a little bitter towards the section of Raps fans who have cheered this on. I do like Scottie and understand why it was time to move on.

[Johnny Bball]

Oh yeah hugely healthy year for the Raps in year 1 without Nurse. Barnes, Poeltl, Quickley barely missed any games. Also so crazy how injury prone Raptors (Lowry, OG, Kawhi, Ibaka) just became amazing pinnacles of health the moment they got away from Nurse.

The development stuff I just find hard to assign blame on that one. It's possible Nurse could have done more for some of those young guys, but they weren't ready to help a team that had expectations to make the playoffs and surprise people once they got there. All of those guys got chances here and there but none of them popped. I'm curious to see who you think deserved a better opportunity.

I feel I always have to remind some Raps fans that Nurse was the development guy for the bench mob boys (Siakam, Poeltl, FVV). Maybe those guys were always going to be good, and Malachi (or whoever you like here) was never going to be good. As fans we have no idea if the Raps had a talent problem or a development problem. Nurse has clearly overseen some big development stories, and has some development failures, just as Masai has some incredible draft finds and misses.

We really don't know for sure, but everyone seems to divide up the blame differently between coaching and front office.

Actually, he really wasn't. And that much more than 4 years ago and he wasn't the coach. Poeltl wasn't even on the team 4 years ago to develop. And they actually were healthier this year, compared to how bad they were the two years prior, they just turned on the tank. I'm not sure why I bother though when you know this team and everything elks better than raps fans obviously.

Nurse was and assistant coach for the Raptors starting in 2013, after spending a couple seasons coaching gleague teams.
In the summer before the 2018 season, Nick Nurse was tasked over the summer with developing a bench unit that had a different style than the Lowry/Derozan/Valanciunas starters. This was well documented at the time. I remember reading articles outlining the drills Nurse was running with them during the summer. Casey was so into it that he not only allowed hockey-style 5-man substitutions, but he also put Nurse in charge of the offense that season.

The Raps aren't "my team" but I do live in Toronto and have followed them as much as basically anyone. I used to even write columns for several Raptors blogs, so I think I'm qualified to talk Raps on realgm's General Board even if I'm not "a fan". I'm not just some random with Raptors opinions I'm making up on the spot.

I have my biases though. I have strongly disliked most eras of Raptors basketball (including this new one). Nurse, OG, and Siakam represent the Raps era I'm the most fond of. They're all gone and I'm a little bitter towards the section of Raps fans who have cheered this on. I do like Scottie and understand why it was time to move on.

Did you even read my original post and the point of contention about how Nurse changed regarding development. Jesus...

[cupcakesnake]

Actually, he really wasn't. And that much more than 4 years ago and he wasn't the coach. Poeltl wasn't even on the team 4 years ago to develop. And they actually were healthier this year, compared to how bad they were the two years prior, they just turned on the tank. I'm not sure why I bother though when you know this team and everything elks better than raps fans obviously.

Nurse was and assistant coach for the Raptors starting in 2013, after spending a couple seasons coaching gleague teams.
In the summer before the 2018 season, Nick Nurse was tasked over the summer with developing a bench unit that had a different style than the Lowry/Derozan/Valanciunas starters. This was well documented at the time. I remember reading articles outlining the drills Nurse was running with them during the summer. Casey was so into it that he not only allowed hockey-style 5-man substitutions, but he also put Nurse in charge of the offense that season.

The Raps aren't "my team" but I do live in Toronto and have followed them as much as basically anyone. I used to even write columns for several Raptors blogs, so I think I'm qualified to talk Raps on realgm's General Board even if I'm not "a fan". I'm not just some random with Raptors opinions I'm making up on the spot.

I have my biases though. I have strongly disliked most eras of Raptors basketball (including this new one). Nurse, OG, and Siakam represent the Raps era I'm the most fond of. They're all gone and I'm a little bitter towards the section of Raps fans who have cheered this on. I do like Scottie and understand why it was time to move on.

Did you even read my original post and the point of contention about how Nurse changed regarding development. Jesus...

Sure. I just don't know how a fan feels for sure to place the blame on the coach rather than the front office or the players.
Who do you feel should have been developed better and why?

[ForeverTFC]

Nurse was and assistant coach for the Raptors starting in 2013, after spending a couple seasons coaching gleague teams.
In the summer before the 2018 season, Nick Nurse was tasked over the summer with developing a bench unit that had a different style than the Lowry/Derozan/Valanciunas starters. This was well documented at the time. I remember reading articles outlining the drills Nurse was running with them during the summer. Casey was so into it that he not only allowed hockey-style 5-man substitutions, but he also put Nurse in charge of the offense that season.

The Raps aren't "my team" but I do live in Toronto and have followed them as much as basically anyone. I used to even write columns for several Raptors blogs, so I think I'm qualified to talk Raps on realgm's General Board even if I'm not "a fan". I'm not just some random with Raptors opinions I'm making up on the spot.

I have my biases though. I have strongly disliked most eras of Raptors basketball (including this new one). Nurse, OG, and Siakam represent the Raps era I'm the most fond of. They're all gone and I'm a little bitter towards the section of Raps fans who have cheered this on. I do like Scottie and understand why it was time to move on.

Did you even read my original post and the point of contention about how Nurse changed regarding development. Jesus...

I also somewhat disagree with you on this Johnny.

You are right that Nurse largely turned his back on developing guys but the FO deserves a lot of blame as well for the personnel they gave him. All the guys they were betting on for depth ended up not providing it under Darko either, even when given the opportunity. There were definitely other players that are doing well in other systems but I don't think all of the development failing is on Nurse. And we shouldn't ignore the Scottie ROY when discussing talent development.

You are also right that he prioritized near term wins over future development and health, but again I don't think he was alone in this. The FO also clearly was pushing for wins. The Thad and Poeltl trade prove as much. I do think Nurse failed in not prioritizing Scottie more and threading that win and development thread, but again, we have to give him credit for getting Scottie a ROY.

I really appreciate cupcakesnake's perspective on the Raptors. He clearly watches a lot of our games but isn't emotionally attached to the team and a lot of times brings a very intelligent and unbiased view to the discussion around the team that we rarely get on RGM. A lot of the reason people turned on Nurse in Toronto was his personality and how he dealt with the players and coaches which had a part to play in the collapse of our culture. I do think that experience has made all of us a bit more jaded and makes us not best positioned to judge him objectively purely as a coach that can get the most out of a specific group of players.

[LLJ]

Nurse is a good coach but he works best with veterans. When he was the Raps coach, I never felt they were tactically outmatched with him, and he makes good playoff adjustments. I've seen many coaches in my time and the ability to make sensible adjustments is a rare trait in the NBA, as many tend to be done in by stubbornness in the playoffs.

But I don't think he's great at managing players' bodies in the regular season.

[nikster]

Nurse was and assistant coach for the Raptors starting in 2013, after spending a couple seasons coaching gleague teams.
In the summer before the 2018 season, Nick Nurse was tasked over the summer with developing a bench unit that had a different style than the Lowry/Derozan/Valanciunas starters. This was well documented at the time. I remember reading articles outlining the drills Nurse was running with them during the summer. Casey was so into it that he not only allowed hockey-style 5-man substitutions, but he also put Nurse in charge of the offense that season.

The Raps aren't "my team" but I do live in Toronto and have followed them as much as basically anyone. I used to even write columns for several Raptors blogs, so I think I'm qualified to talk Raps on realgm's General Board even if I'm not "a fan". I'm not just some random with Raptors opinions I'm making up on the spot.

I have my biases though. I have strongly disliked most eras of Raptors basketball (including this new one). Nurse, OG, and Siakam represent the Raps era I'm the most fond of. They're all gone and I'm a little bitter towards the section of Raps fans who have cheered this on. I do like Scottie and understand why it was time to move on.

Did you even read my original post and the point of contention about how Nurse changed regarding development. Jesus...

I also somewhat disagree with you on this Johnny.

You are right that Nurse largely turned his back on developing guys but the FO deserves a lot of blame as well for the personnel they gave him. All the guys they were betting on for depth ended up not providing it under Darko either, even when given the opportunity. There were definitely other players that are doing well in other systems but I don't think all of the development failing is on Nurse. And we shouldn't ignore the Scottie ROY when discussing talent development.

You are also right that he prioritized near term wins over future development and health, but again I don't think he was alone in this. The FO also clearly was pushing for wins. The Thad and Poeltl trade prove as much. I do think Nurse failed in not prioritizing Scottie more and threading that win and development thread, but again, we have to give him credit for getting Scottie a ROY.

I really appreciate cupcakesnake's perspective on the Raptors. He clearly watches a lot of our games but isn't emotionally attached to the team and a lot of times brings a very intelligent and unbiased view to the discussion around the team that we rarely get on RGM. A lot of the reason people turned on Nurse in Toronto was his personality and how he dealt with the players and coaches which had a part to play in the collapse of our culture. I do think that experience has made all of us a bit more jaded and makes us not best positioned to judge him objectively purely as a coach that can get the most out of a specific group of players.

I think what gets lost into he developing guys from scratch is the growth existing players took. You brought up Scottie. Pascal won MIP Nurses first year and then took another jump and made all NBA the second. Fred went from a decent all star and made an all star team. OG and Norm had huge growths offensively, increasing their scoring averages by 10+ppg.

[junot111]

You need good players to win. If you have good players, Nurse has proven that he will win with them. He's easily a top 5 coach at least. I don't fault him at all for not developing low ceiling prospects on the Raptors

[Jabroni Lames]

You need good players to win. If you have good players, Nurse has proven that he will win with them. He's easily a top 5 coach at least. I don't fault him at all for not developing low ceiling prospects on the Raptors

Why couldn’t Nurse even get to playoffs with: Siakam, FVV, OG, Barnes, Poeltl starting plus Trent, Precious & Boucher off the bench. I repeat…. not even make the playoffs. Those are good to great players right there with enough bench depth. Like what does Nurse need? An all-star team? When you don’t have the players, like Thibs, THAT is when a coach proves his mettle.

Almost any coach can win with good players + luck. Masai gifted Nurse an all-time great defensive team that won 59 games the season before and added DPOYs Kawhi, Gasol & all-defense Danny Green. And Nurse lucked into not facing Lebron, KD and some Klay for the playoffs. He’s been dining off that lucky chip ever since. He hasn’t really proven anything other than he was lucky…. once.

[ForeverTFC]

You need good players to win. If you have good players, Nurse has proven that he will win with them. He's easily a top 5 coach at least. I don't fault him at all for not developing low ceiling prospects on the Raptors

Why couldn’t Nurse even get to playoffs with: Siakam, FVV, OG, Barnes, Poeltl starting plus Trent, Precious & Boucher off the bench. I repeat…. not even make the playoffs. Those are good to great players right there with enough bench depth. Like what does Nurse need? An all-star team? When you don’t have the players, like Thibs, THAT is when a coach proves his mettle.

Almost any coach can win with good players + luck. Masai gifted Nurse an all-time great defensive team that won 59 games the season before and added DPOYs Kawhi, Gasol & all-defense Danny Green. And Nurse lucked into not facing Lebron, KD and some Klay for the playoffs. He’s been dining off that lucky chip ever since. He hasn’t really proven anything other than he was lucky…. once.

1. He took them to game 7 of the East Semis against Boston in '20-'21 w/o Kawhi and Green, and w/ the corpse of Marc Gasol, a series Tatum said was the hardest series he had played to date on JJ's podcast last year
2. He made the playoffs with the personnel you called out excluding Poeltl in '21-'22 as the 5th seed
3. Raptors were 15-11 w/ Poeltl in '22-'23 and would have made the playoffs had he been there the whole year
4. The Raptors novel play style that Nurse put in for '21-'22 got scouted by the league which led to less wins, yet we didn't have the personnel to respond to it in any way - that's on the FO. It also didn't help that our only movement shooter FVV - a career .380 3pt shooter - had his worst 3pt shooting season of his career at .340.

The locker room was an absolute mess which led to the guys not playing well together last year - you can blame the latter partly on Nurse. And maybe you can blame some of the injury issues we had to how he over-worked his roster, though the FO also shares blame in that. But to say Nurse hasn't proven anything and was simply lucky is insane.