Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[DimesandKnicks]

Like Lebron when he lost in the finals against Dallas or how Jordan hadn't won anything until Phil and Pippen showed up or how the 8th seed Grizzlies beat Duncan's 1st seed Spurs?

The difference is once those guys started winning they were completely dominant, Jokic is getting shut down by KAT and Naz Reid, and a complete pylon on defense.

As opposed to Lebron getting shut down by JJ Barea.

Jason Kidd* who also neurtralized Kobe Bryant, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden. Might even add Brandon Roy to that list but I didn’t watch that series

[swyftdahoe]

He's the best player in the world rn still. But yes, all the goat-level talk has been premature.

[stormi]

As soon as his name started getting mentioned alongside Lebron's all time, then he way crossed the border into the territory of being overrated.

He's just not that caliber of player and unfortunately has built a legacy on the foundation of distorted advanced statistics (that are being exposed before our very eyes) and the repercussion is that it will debar guys like Luka from ever having a comparable case to win the major awards.

The fact that these numbers can reflect that Jokic is anything but a bad defender is enough evidence that it's merits are unreliable. He's getting attacked and targeted out there, and this isn't the first series that we've seen this happen.

It's sad to see that fellow Mavs fans are this butthurt about the MVP. Jokic is just a better player, as of now. I don't really understand why this is so hard for you to admit.

He's a better player, but the advanced stats brigade that has proclaimed Jokic as arguably the greatest to ever do it is treading across uncharted waters and I'm scared for where the discourse could have gone if not for this palette cleanser Wolves series.

I'm seeing all time greats on the daily denigrated because their VORP and Kitchen Sink metrics aren't up to par. That isn't the only way to stack players up.

[ChipotleWest]

The difference is once those guys started winning they were completely dominant, Jokic is getting shut down by KAT and Naz Reid, and a complete pylon on defense.

As opposed to Lebron getting shut down by JJ Barea.

Jason Kidd* who also neurtralized Kobe Bryant, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden. Might even add Brandon Roy to that list but I didn’t watch that series

Carlisle made that switch in Game 4. Marion was the primary Lebron defender up until that point. But Kidd shut him down for only 8 points and Kidd was 38 years old.

[Johnny Firpo]

He's a better player, but the advanced stats brigade that has proclaimed Jokic as arguably the greatest to ever do it is treading across uncharted waters and I'm scared for where the discourse could have gone if not for this palette cleanser Wolves series.

I'm seeing all time greats on the daily denigrated because their VORP and Kitchen Sink metrics aren't up to par. That isn't the only way to stack players up.

No one ever really said that Jokic is better than Jordan, we are/were talking about offense, and talking about peak, not even all-time ranking. His peak can be top 5 ever, and he could still not make the top 10. And advanced stats are only part of that. The other parts are box score stats, which he is also elite at, raising his level in the playoffs, which he is also elite at, and his ability to raise a team's floor. Which all-time great players are denigrated due to their advanced stats? Maybe Iverson? Certainly not the MJs, LeBrons, Birds, Magics of the world.

[lakerz12]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

[C3H6N6O6]

Jokic is top 10 all time on offense.
What gets him overrated is that the podcasters like Russillo and Bill Simmons who laugh at ESPN talking heads are the same ones who cover up Jokic's problems on defense because they like his offense so much.

According to me he is still the best player in the world but "pundits" who try to cover up his defensive shortcomings are not helping. I can understand AD doing well because he is a big too but guys like Edwards should not be getting easy layups against any big who is not really bad on defense.

[SelfishPlayer]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

I believe that prime LeBron could win a championship with MPJ and Murray because at their core they are elite shooters. LeBron could probably win a championship with them today.

[AleksandarN]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

I believe that prime LeBron could win a championship with MPJ and Murray because at their core they are elite shooters. LeBron could probably win a championship with them today.

Prime Lebron couldn’t win against the Mavs team with Dwade and Bosh as his teammates. Two far better players than MPJ and Murray and Lebron is the second best player ever.

[fansse]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

I believe that prime LeBron could win a championship with MPJ and Murray because at their core they are elite shooters. LeBron could probably win a championship with them today.

People act Jokic’s supporting cast is terrible. It’s actually one of the best in the league.

Keep saying no all star, but the West historically been loaded at the guard position. If Murray was in the East, he’d be a few times all star

[Wallace_Wallace]

I've been saying this since his first mvp. He's an incredible system player, but he lacks competitive fire and toughness to be an ATG player. His MVP as a 6 seed will be locked at as THE worst mvp season in history. It'll make the Rose and Nash wins seem unanimous.

Jokic is a guy that needs a superstar like Murray to make his game work. He can't take over without that second punch on the perimeter the way other ATGs could. Now that Murray has been exposed, so has Jokic. What's funny is that those really watching told you this year's ago when he only got the sixth seed without him.

To me he is the third best player in the NBA - Luka and Embiid are comfortably ahead of him. Last year he took advantage of an injured field, and a weakened conference in a transition year. He had Murray playing like a superstar and to his credit got it done. But his awards don't match his greatness and in a few years everyone will come around to what I'm saying here right now.

I would have accepted a post in which you state that Giannis is better than Jokic.
Not that i would necessarily agree but i could understand.
But.... Embiid?
Name one reason why Embiid is better than Giannis for example.
One accomplishment.
Giannis has 1 ring, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs, 1DPOY, 1 all-star MVP, he's been all star captain multiple times, he's been all star multiple times, all NBA first team multiple times, all defense first multiple times. He has even a minor award like the MIP.

Embiid has 1 MVP. He has never reached a conference finals.
How can someone say that he's comfortably ahead of guys like Jokic or Giannis really amazes me.
Do you guys watch the league in the last 6-7 seasons?
Are you sure?

To me, this is clearly a hate thread against Jokic.
The Embiid reference sealed it.

You're just listing accomplishments. Embiid doesn't have any because he is always injured. When he is healthy he is better than both those guys. He's a better defender and better scorer.

What makes Giannis an inferior defender compared to Embiid? Are you for real right now?

[LightTheBeam]

Initially I was rooting for the Wolves this series, but seeing all these half ass "told you so's" "jokic has been exposed" makes me want him to come get the next 2 in Minnesota.

What a joke of a thread.

[dhsilv2]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

I believe that prime LeBron could win a championship with MPJ and Murray because at their core they are elite shooters. LeBron could probably win a championship with them today.

People act Jokic’s supporting cast is terrible. It’s actually one of the best in the league.

Keep saying no all star, but the West historically been loaded at the guard position. If Murray was in the East, he’d be a few times all star

Murray might have made it this year. He hasn't been good enough to be an allstar any other year, east or west. The nuggets have a good starting 5 and a pretty bad bench with a few young guys with some upside. This is a good supporting cast. It not a great one. It would be a uniquely bad one to repeat, likely the worst by a margin.

[Special_Puppy]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

I believe that prime LeBron could win a championship with MPJ and Murray because at their core they are elite shooters. LeBron could probably win a championship with them today.

People act Jokic’s supporting cast is terrible. It’s actually one of the best in the league.

Keep saying no all star, but the West historically been loaded at the guard position

Wouldn't say its terrible, but there are easily 10+ supporting casts in the league that are better. They have no bench. Nobody else who has ever made an All-Star, All-NBA, or All-Defense team. The common retort is that Murray plays like an All-NBA level player in the playoffs but he's been absolutely horrific so far.

[KGtabake]

I've been saying this since his first mvp. He's an incredible system player, but he lacks competitive fire and toughness to be an ATG player. His MVP as a 6 seed will be locked at as THE worst mvp season in history. It'll make the Rose and Nash wins seem unanimous.

Jokic is a guy that needs a superstar like Murray to make his game work. He can't take over without that second punch on the perimeter the way other ATGs could. Now that Murray has been exposed, so has Jokic. What's funny is that those really watching told you this year's ago when he only got the sixth seed without him.

To me he is the third best player in the NBA - Luka and Embiid are comfortably ahead of him. Last year he took advantage of an injured field, and a weakened conference in a transition year. He had Murray playing like a superstar and to his credit got it done. But his awards don't match his greatness and in a few years everyone will come around to what I'm saying here right now.

I would have accepted a post in which you state that Giannis is better than Jokic.
Not that i would necessarily agree but i could understand.
But.... Embiid?
Name one reason why Embiid is better than Giannis for example.
One accomplishment.
Giannis has 1 ring, 1 FMVP, 2 MVPs, 1DPOY, 1 all-star MVP, he's been all star captain multiple times, he's been all star multiple times, all NBA first team multiple times, all defense first multiple times. He has even a minor award like the MIP.

Embiid has 1 MVP. He has never reached a conference finals.
How can someone say that he's comfortably ahead of guys like Jokic or Giannis really amazes me.
Do you guys watch the league in the last 6-7 seasons?
Are you sure?

To me, this is clearly a hate thread against Jokic.
The Embiid reference sealed it.

You're just listing accomplishments. Embiid doesn't have any because he is always injured. When he is healthy he is better than both those guys. He's a better defender and better scorer.

Really? Says who? Do you have stats to back it up?
Go ahead and search for the record head to head between Giannis and Embiid. Check their stats when they meet each other.
I'll help you. There's a site called "land of basketball".
Why don't you go there and have a look.
Maybe then, you'll understand that some people here like to use facts on their posts.

Giannis and Jokic are top20 players all time. Already.
They can only climb further.
Embiid isn't on that level.

[shi-woo]

Naa Jokic has still been playing decent, he just doesn't hop ship to team up with other MVP's and All NBA players to take the load off.

People will call him over rated in this thread and then compare him to players who's 3rd options would be the Nuggets 2nd option. Jokic's most accomplished team mate is Aaron Gordon.

When other stars have had similar teams, like LeBron in 07 and Kidd in 2002, it ended just as badly. Jokic is the best engine of the decade, in that the better things you put in, the better production you're going to see come out. Right now with KCP and Jamal compromised, the output just isn't going to be there as much.

Like what more can Jokic do in these games? He's getting nothing from guys who have never made an all star game. Would it be better if his fans just started threads after every lose screaming for more help, and begging for other stars to come to Denver for peanuts?

Be realistic, there is a reason why his ring was considered so great, and why he became the face of the NBA. He is the best floor raiser we've seen since LeBron, and is not over rated.

Yall just under rated the Wolves, a team that has 3 All-NBA players on it, the 6th man of the year, and another former All star gm. The talent discrepancy between these two teams is really showing right now

Not much you can do in that regard, and that doesn't reflect negatively on Jokic, who has clearly been the best player in the NBA the past 3 years. Any player that's been that good and held that title for that long, can't be over rated

[lessthanjake]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

I believe that prime LeBron could win a championship with MPJ and Murray because at their core they are elite shooters. LeBron could probably win a championship with them today.

People act Jokic’s supporting cast is terrible. It’s actually one of the best in the league.

Keep saying no all star, but the West historically been loaded at the guard position. If Murray was in the East, he’d be a few times all star

He’s ranked 31st and 70th in the league in EPM the last two years (for reference, in 2009 and 2010, Mo Williams ranked 36th and 69th). He ranked 56th and 90th in LEBRON the last two years. He was 37th in RS+Playoff RAPTOR last year (the stat doesn’t exist this year), and it was 86th in the regular season. If anything, even calling him a borderline all star is perhaps generous. He’s a maybe-borderline-all-star who happens to have played better than that in a couple playoffs, but now is playing worse than that in a playoffs (and has also missed two of the last four playoffs with injury).

[DimesandKnicks]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

Lebron carried scrubs to the finals in his third year

[Special_Puppy]

Naa Jokic has still been playing decent, he just doesn't hop ship to team up with other MVP's and All NBA players to take the load off.

People will call him over rated in this thread and then compare him to players who's 3rd options would be the Nuggets 2nd option. Jokic's most accomplished team mate is Aaron Gordon.

When other stars have had similar teams, like LeBron in 07 and Kidd in 2002, it ended just as badly. Jokic is the best engine of the decade, in that the better things you put in, the better production you're going to see come out. Right now with KCP and Jamal compromised, the output just isn't going to be there as much.

Like what more can Jokic do in these games? He's getting nothing from guys who have never made an all star game. Would it be better if his fans just started threads after every lose screaming for more help, and begging for other stars to come to Denver for peanuts?

Be realistic, there is a reason why his ring was considered so great, and why he became the face of the NBA. He is the best floor raiser we've seen since LeBron, and is not over rated.

Yall just under rated the Wolves, a team that has 3 All-NBA players on it, the 6th man of the year, and another former All star gm. The talent discrepancy between these two teams is really showing right now

Not much you can do in that regard, and that doesn't reflect negatively on Jokic, who has clearly been the best player in the NBA the past 3 years. Any player that's been that good and held that title for that long, can't be over rated

LeBron was awful in the 2007 series, but in fairness he was 7 years younger than Jokic is now and had no expectations of actually winning the series.

[SelfishPlayer]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

I believe that prime LeBron could win a championship with MPJ and Murray because at their core they are elite shooters. LeBron could probably win a championship with them today.

Prime Lebron couldn’t win against the Mavs team with Dwade and Bosh as his teammates. Two far better players than MPJ and Murray and Lebron is the second best player ever.

MPJ and Murray are elite shooters, Bosh and Wade are not...