RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Chuck Everett]

If Luka received even one All-NBA Defense award that would be the biggest upset in any GOAT debate. I will believe when I see it.

[JM00n69]

Y'all are seriously gonna argue that if MJ had made the Finals 4 more times but lost to go 6-4 that his argument as GOAT would be weaker

Yes

It would be stronger even. Do you not see why?

[TheGeneral99]

No it doesn't mean that.

For example, in the NFL Montana was often regarded as the GOAT because he was 4-0 in the Super Bowl. Brady came in and became the GOAT because he won 7 Super Bowls and appeared in 10. Even though Brady was 7-3, he is easily regarded as the GOAT because he shattered Montana by every metric. Brady also finished with more MVPs than Montana and beat him in every statistical category.

I can't regard Lebron as the GOAT because while his overall stats are better due to longevity, he is 4-6 in the NBA Finals. Jordan also had a relatively short career where he retired during his peak and still finished with more MVPs, FMVPs and championships than Lebron. Jordan's statistical achievements between 1987 and 1998 are slightly better than Lebron's peak between 2009 and 2020.

OP is missing the point. If Lebron made it to 10 NBA finals and was 6-4 that would STRENGTHEN his argument, not weaken it.

For a player to surpass Jordan they would likely need at least 5 championships and 5 MVPs or something in that ballpark.

[SelfishPlayer]

Jordan never made it out of the first round of the playoffs without Scottie Pippen.

[JM00n69]

Jordan never made it out of the first round of the playoffs without Scottie Pippen.

Neither did LBJ or Luka

[PierceFan4ever]

Never had a chance

[stuporman]

[gottamakeit]

My GOAT

[gottamakeit]

Could MJ fly like this?

I think not, my GOAT case is settled

[fuller4379]

Jordan won in 40% of his season. He wasn't 6-0. He was 6-9.

[og15]

I wanted to watch some Luka highlights just to see his passing, so I popped some on this weekend and forgot how much slimmer first and second year Luka was.

If Luka is going to be knocking on any GOAT discussions, he will need to take better care of his body, because he will still need to do work in his 30's to get there.

[Hair Jordan]

Jordan never made it out of the first round of the playoffs without Scottie Pippen.

Lebron couldn’t even make the playoffs until he got Larry Hughes.

[CS707]

With the current CBA the chance of a team being in contention for a significant amount of time is basically zero.

I assume it will favor a team with one dominant player since it'll be harder to field super stacked teams.

[Charlie Sollers]

To be the GOAT you must win at least 7 titles with no losses in the finals. It's better to lose in the previous rounds than it is to lose in the NBA finals.

[KodiakBear]

If lebron had 6 or more titles then people wouldn't care as much about his losses. It's the fact he's had so many cracks at winning rings and still wasn't able to surpass Jordan's 6 that should tell you how amazing of a feat it truly was.

You also make it sound like people are trashing Lebron if they call him the 2nd or best player of all time. This has more to do with the fact Lebron stans cant accept he's not 1st lol.

Even if LeBron did get 2 more, look at how much longer it took him to do it !

MJ only played like 13 years. Well I guess 15 when you factor in the 2 he played when he joined the worst team in the league three years after retiring

Jordan is the goat, but LeBron winning another one would make it a real debate because of his age. Leading a team to a title in your 40s would be super impressive. Doubt it happens though. Lakers aren't close

[Tim Kempton]

The 4-6 Finals record is deceiving. Nobody was ever going to beat the Durant-Steph-Draymond-Klay Warriors teams. Can't really hold those losses against LeBron.

We also shouldn't hold the 1st Finals loss to the pre-Durant Warriors against LeBron when Kyrie and Love both went down and LeBron played out of his mind.

Getting that terrible '07 Cavs team to the Finals deserves to be recognized as a major accomplishment instead of being a hindrance on his legacy. Without LeBron, that is a 25 win team if they're lucky.

LeBron also deserves a tremendous amount of credit for bringing a championship to Cleveland.

HOWEVER,

His DREADFUL performance against the Mavs - after forming a superteam - is deservedly a huge hit to his GOAT claim. That may have been the worst Finals performance by an all-time great in their prime EVER. Absolutely inexcusable.

Also, although he played much better, getting obliterated by the Spurs in the rematch hurts his case.


Overall, LeBron deserves a bit more credit for his Finals record but he has some glaring issues that deserve to be criticized.

[NZB2323]

I think the Finals argument is silly. If the Bulls were in the West Jordan would have lost in the finals in 90 and possibly 89 against the Pistons.

It would be hard for Luka to pass Jordan, Lebron, or Kareem with his defense. And with his conditioning I doubt he’ll have longevity.

[Godymas]

The 4-6 Finals record is deceiving. Nobody was ever going to beat the Durant-Steph-Draymond-Klay Warriors teams. Can't really hold those losses against LeBron.

We also shouldn't hold the 1st Finals loss to the pre-Durant Warriors against LeBron when Kyrie and Love both went down and LeBron played out of his mind.

Getting that terrible '07 Cavs team to the Finals deserves to be recognized as a major accomplishment instead of being a hindrance on his legacy. Without LeBron, that is a 25 win team if they're lucky.

LeBron also deserves a tremendous amount of credit for bringing a championship to Cleveland.

HOWEVER,

His DREADFUL performance against the Mavs - after forming a superteam - is deservedly a huge hit to his GOAT claim. That may have been the worst Finals performance by an all-time great in their prime EVER. Absolutely inexcusable.

Also, although he played much better, getting obliterated by the Spurs in the rematch hurts his case.


Overall, LeBron deserves a bit more credit for his Finals record but he has some glaring issues that deserve to be criticized.

yeah that 2011 finals would make him 5-5

then obviously the KD 2017 and 2018 rings he lost don’t hurt his legacy as much. Then there’s 2015 where Kyrie and Love were injured. That would put him at 5-2 realistic finals. But then obviously the 2007 finals was one of the greatest carry jobs of all time, so let’s omit that.

That would mean LeBron is 5-1 which would really make him look better.

But the only way to get here would be if 2011 wasn’t such a disgrace

[fuller4379]

yeah that 2011 finals would make him 5-5

then obviously the KD 2017 and 2018 rings he lost don’t hurt his legacy as much. Then there’s 2015 where Kyrie and Love were injured. That would put him at 5-2 realistic finals. But then obviously the 2007 finals was one of the greatest carry jobs of all time, so let’s omit that.

That would mean LeBron is 5-1 which would really make him look better.

But the only way to get here would be if 2011 wasn’t such a disgrace

Lebron has been in the NBA for 21 season; therefore, he is 4-17.

[ballzboyee]

Realistically, I think Luka physically is already at his peak. With his frame and the weight he carries, I don't see him having an elite run in late prime or post prime which for most players begins around 32 or 33 to 35. Seems like players are more effective than ever going deep into their 30's, but how many years do you give Luka to make at minimum 6 or 7 more finals runs and log those hours on his legs? The guys who have done it are players like Curry, Lebron, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Kareem, i.e players who if they didn't play basketball would still be elite athletes. I mean, Curry could play WR in the NFL. Lebron could play TE's in the NFL or maybe even DE. Kobe and Jordan were physical marvels. Also all of those player were fitness freaks. Pat Riley literally had to stop Magic from working out in the offseason because he ran so much that the team was concerned about his health. He never stopped running. Bird wasn't a physical marvel, but he ran constantly. Stayed in the gym running laps and steps in Boston Garden. Is Luka a gym rat like that?

So I think Luka's window is now. To catch Jordan he needs to kick it up into high gear immediately.