Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today

[jpengland]

John Stockton translates as well as any of the 90s generation.

He was an absolute savant who was still a star player at 40 years old. Smart, skilled, tough as nails. Pace and space would suit him down to the ground. He would find the open man every time down the court.

Clearly an all star and a player every damn team in the league would want on their roster.

[SelfishPlayer]

You'll be shocked to hear this, but all D teams are not a good indicator of who the best defenders are; see Kobe Bryant. Neither are steals btw.

You're correct, it's not a good indicator it's a GREAT indicator it recognizes the Raja Bell, Bruce Bowen, Derrick McKey and Mookie Blaylock's of the world.

Since Kobe made more than twice as many all-D teams as Stockton I guess you must think he was more than twice as good on D as Stockton.

Let's not make this about me, they are both "the best defenders."

[boomershadow]

Wouldn't even be an all-star given his lack of creation and pass first game, combined with a much stronger league.

He was still an above average starter at 40 in 02-03. That means Shaq & Kobe Lakers, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bowen Spurs, Nowitzki, Nash Finley Mavericks, Webber, Stojakovic, Bibby Kings to name a few teams.

He played against some of the best point guards in history (Magic, Isiah, Penny, Tim Hardaway, KJ, Mark Price, GP, JKidd and so on) and made the All Star team in 3 different decades. He is All time leader in Assists and Steals. He is 7th All time in Win Shares, 3rd All time in VORP and 8th all time in BPM.

What part of his game would not translate into today's NBA? In what area does he have skill gaps?

Here's a better question. What modern player plays like Stockton? Who is the archetype for his success?

Tyrese Haliburton.

[Lost Angel]

Stockton never made mistakes. All time leader in steals and I think assists also.

He’d be a top 3 point guard today in my opinion.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Here's a better question. What modern player plays like Stockton? Who is the archetype for his success?

This is already a kinda pointless question. I could also ask, which current player plays like Magic, Jordan, Bird, AI, Barkley, Karl Malone, Shaq or to go with more current examples, who is the current Steve Nash, Tim Duncan, Rajon Rondo?

To still give an example, Chris Paul has a lot of similar skills and a similar playstyle. He's kind of a mix of Isiah Thomas and John Stockton. Mike Conley also to a lesser extend. T.J. McConnell would be another one.

It's pretty blasphemous to mention Stockton in the same breathe as all-time greats like Magic & Bird. I can also envision exactly how most of those guys would translate, and where I don't it tends to be because that player would be much worse (eg Rondo, AI). Similarly, when your archetype is an all time historical outlier like Barkley or Shaq you're in trouble. Those guys are outliers for a reason.

CP3 is a vastly better shooter and PnR player than Stockton, and frankly is a much better passer and defender too. McConnell was closer to the mark, bit he's a bench player. Your other modern comp, Conley, made exactly 1 all-star game as an injury replacement.

How old are you? Stockton was an excellent shooter. So was CP3. I don’t see how anyone who’s seen them both can say CP3 was a VASTLY better shooter than Stockton though.

If you want to argue CP3 was a better shooter I’m ok with that. But there’s no way you can say he’s VASTLY better if you’ve seen them both play

Vastly meaning: “ to a very great extent; immensely”

Like if you said CP3 is a vastly better shooter than LeBron James, that would actually make sense. But saying he’s a vastly better shooter than John Stockton proves that you really have no idea what you’re talking about

[One_and_Done]

He was still an above average starter at 40 in 02-03. That means Shaq & Kobe Lakers, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bowen Spurs, Nowitzki, Nash Finley Mavericks, Webber, Stojakovic, Bibby Kings to name a few teams.

He played against some of the best point guards in history (Magic, Isiah, Penny, Tim Hardaway, KJ, Mark Price, GP, JKidd and so on) and made the All Star team in 3 different decades. He is All time leader in Assists and Steals. He is 7th All time in Win Shares, 3rd All time in VORP and 8th all time in BPM.

What part of his game would not translate into today's NBA? In what area does he have skill gaps?

Here's a better question. What modern player plays like Stockton? Who is the archetype for his success?

Tyrese Haliburton.

I'm definitely taking Tyrese. Stockton never showed his shooting range for one thing, when Stockton shot nobody guarded the 3 much and it was relatively open shots. Tyres (and CP3) hit far higher degree of difficulty shots with ease.

[JRoy]

That's why the Jazz won 58 games every year right? They must have won even more than that every year with Stockton, right? Because Stockton was teamed with an MVP forward and played in a weaker era. Odd that they didn't. But they only lost to great teams though right? Not bad teams like the 43 win Warriors, right?

Weaker era?

Without taking a deep dive empirically, the presence of exponentially more international talent without a corresponding increase in teams to spread out such talent should point to the modern era being a stronger one, all things equal.

Luka and Shai have been mentioned frequently as top guards in this thread, where did they come from and were there any equivalents in the 80s-90s?

Magic Johnson isn’t the worst comparison to Luka. High scoring big guard of your choice for SGA. Penny Hardaway maybe?

[OhMyGodBecky]

We never got to really see him without a deliberate All-Star teammate for that effective 1-2 punch duo. Also wonder how his defense would fare today. He was a master at working little angles, elbows and hip checks just enough to get an upper hand but wonder how much he'd be getting away with that today.

[MavsDirk41]

No, that's not it.

His dogma requires automatically discounting players from the past based on his subjective view of their in-era competition. The further away from the present, the bigger the discount.

And to further handicap past players, he categorically rejects the notion that we can draw reasonable inferences on how they would play today...as long as it benefits the player. If it adds further demerits to the player, then project away.

It really isn't an internally consistent method of analysis. But even if it held up logically, it fails on the merits of sound analysis.

I have Kareem in my top 2-3 all-time, so that ain't it. I have Mailman in my top 15ish. He was the actual engine of those teams, not Stockton.

In what way was Malone the engine of the Utah Jazz and not Stockton?

How many games have you seen Stockton play?

[MavsDirk41]

Here's a better question. What modern player plays like Stockton? Who is the archetype for his success?

Tyrese Haliburton.

I'm definitely taking Tyrese. Stockton never showed his shooting range for one thing, when Stockton shot nobody guarded the 3 much and it was relatively open shots. Tyres (and CP3) hit far higher degree of difficulty shots with ease.

I watched Haliburton unload many open 3s last year without being contested….and Paul doesnt have the durability of a Stockton late in his career. 16 seasons playing 82 games…..Stockton would easily be putting up 16/10 at a high efficiency in todays nba.

[TravisScott55]

When he played the pg position was the weakest, a lot more dynamic pg's in the NBA now. He'd still be great, but probably wouldn't be as much a lockdown defender as he was in his era.

[One_and_Done]

No, that's not it.

His dogma requires automatically discounting players from the past based on his subjective view of their in-era competition. The further away from the present, the bigger the discount.

And to further handicap past players, he categorically rejects the notion that we can draw reasonable inferences on how they would play today...as long as it benefits the player. If it adds further demerits to the player, then project away.

It really isn't an internally consistent method of analysis. But even if it held up logically, it fails on the merits of sound analysis.

I have Kareem in my top 2-3 all-time, so that ain't it. I have Mailman in my top 15ish. He was the actual engine of those teams, not Stockton.

In what way was Malone the engine of the Utah Jazz and not Stockton?

How many games have you seen Stockton play?

I have actually seen a tonne of Stockton games. Nice player, wouldn't be top 24 today.

When Stockton's role started to drop as he got older, eg in 98, the Jazz were still great. That is one of the numerous indicators that Malone was the guy driving their success. That is also how they were perceived at the time. Malone won 2 MVPs and was constantly in the mix, while Stockton's MVP vote was between 7-17 (usually closer to the latter). Nobody at the time saw Stockton as an MVP type of player.

[MavsDirk41]

I have Kareem in my top 2-3 all-time, so that ain't it. I have Mailman in my top 15ish. He was the actual engine of those teams, not Stockton.

In what way was Malone the engine of the Utah Jazz and not Stockton?

How many games have you seen Stockton play?

I have actually seen a tonne of Stockton games. Nice player, wouldn't be top 24 today.

When Stockton's role started to drop as he got older, eg in 98, the Jazz were still great. That is one of the numerous indicators that Malone was the guy driving their success. That is also how they were perceived at the time. Malone won 2 MVPs and was constantly in the mix, while Stockton's MVP vote was between 7-17 (usually closer to the latter). Nobody at the time saw Stockton as an MVP type of player.

Stockton’s role didnt drop he was just typically the 3rd or 4th option offensively for the team if you are accounting for fga per game. He was a true pass first point guard who averaged less than 10 fga per game for many seasons which is unheard of. But he was the engine of that dynasty. Malone was the better talent but Stockton was the engine/QB/driving force behind their offensive scheme. If Stockton were more selfish he could have averaged 20 points per game on high efficiency but that wasnt his game. Evaluating Stocktons impact in the league is more than just looking at his numbers.

[JackZZ]

When he played the pg position was the weakest primarily focused on playmaking, a lot more dynamic scoring pg's in the NBA now. He'd still be great, but probably wouldn't be as much a lockdown defender as he was in his era.

There corrected and for the last part, Stockton was never a lockdown defender. His defensive attribute was on help defense and playing the passing lanes with interceptions/steals. You may have confused him with The Glove who was a lock down defender.

[Scalabrine]

Wouldn't even be an all-star given his lack of creation and pass first game, combined with a much stronger league.

Take a look at the West all-stars, and all the great players who don't make it. There's no chance Stockton is an all-star.

Lets take a look at his pace adjusted stats and compare them to some of the All-Stars in todays NBA:

Stockton had an incredibly long career, where he played pretty much every game, but lets go with his absolute peak from 89-95.
During those 7 seasons; per 100 possessions, Stockton averaged 22 points (15.2 fga), 18.2 assists (4.7 turnovers: 3.9 ast:to), 4.1 rebounds on 52/38/82 shooting splits with a 121 O rating and a 104 D Rating.

I think in this era, he would have averaged more three point attempts and probably more shot attempts overall. In his prime, he averaged around 20% usage, where ball dominant point guards now a days are closer to 30+%.

Statistically speaking, Tyrese Halliburton is a pretty good comparison, Stockton was a better version offensively, but thats about as close are you're gonna get. Defensively, Stockton was on a whole other planet to Halliburton obviously. Think closer to Derrick White or Marcus Smart or Jalen Suggs in terms of impact, he made 5 All-Defensive teams. 11 All-NBA teams.

Where do you think Halliburton offensively + Derrick White's defense would rank in todays NBA?
I think you'd still have to take Luka over him. SGA would probably be on a similar level but very different players. He'd be at least on the same level as Brunson, Curry, Kyrie, Lillard, but probably better than all of them.

SGA vs. Stockton
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=stockjo01&p1yrfrom=1990&p1yrto=1990&player_id2=gilgesh01&p2yrfrom=2024&p2yrto=2024

Haliburton vs. Stockton
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=stockjo01&p1yrfrom=1990&p1yrto=1990&player_id2=halibty01&p2yrfrom=2024&p2yrto=2024

Steph vs. Stockton
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=stockjo01&p1yrfrom=1990&p1yrto=1990&player_id2=curryst01&p2yrfrom=2024&p2yrto=2024

Luka vs. Stockton
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=stockjo01&p1yrfrom=1990&p1yrto=1990&player_id2=curryst01&p2yrfrom=2024&p2yrto=2024

Brunson vs. Stockton
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=stockjo01&p1yrfrom=1990&p1yrto=1990&player_id2=brunsja01&p2yrfrom=2024&p2yrto=2024

[SelfishPlayer]

One thing that will get lost in time about Stockton especially to guys that didn't watch him play was his clutch ability. Stockton became the closer during their runs to the Finals. When I mean closer, I'm talking about actually taking the shot. Stockton was clutch.

Watch on YouTube

John Stockton's real value came in the area of mental toughness and being able to concentrate for long periods of time. What am I talking about? He executed their offense with precision and was right there whenever you made a mistake. Look at his steals. Stockton was dialed in all game long. That applies pressure to the opponent knowing that this player was never going to ruin it for his own team and if you as the opponent as much as hiccuped he was right their to capitalize upon it.

[JackZZ]

One thing that will get lost in time about Stockton especially to guys that didn't watch him play was his clutch ability. Stockton became the closer during their runs to the Finals. When I mean closer, I'm talking about actually taking the shot. Stockton was clutch.

Watch on YouTube

John Stockton's real value came in the area of mental toughness and being able to concentrate for long periods of time. What am I talking about? He executed their offense with precision and was right there whenever you made a mistake. Look at his steals. Stockton was dialed in all game long. That applies pressure to the opponent knowing that this player was never going to ruin it for his own team and if you as the opponent as much as hiccuped he was right their to capitalize upon it.

Put him with Giannis ... in today game. They'd rip their way to multiple chips.

[theonlyclutch]

Weaker era?

Without taking a deep dive empirically, the presence of exponentially more international talent without a corresponding increase in teams to spread out such talent should point to the modern era being a stronger one, all things equal.

Luka and Shai have been mentioned frequently as top guards in this thread, where did they come from and were there any equivalents in the 80s-90s?

Shai's career high in scoring is only 44 points. The game today is easier to play. Adam Silver at the All Star break last season told the refs to swallow the whistle as to decrease scoring and admitted publicly that he did that. The league today is an easier league to produce in. SGA career high is 44 and Luka just spent an entire post season including a Finals run where he didn't score 40 or more points a single time after scoring 73 points in a game against the Hawks BEFORE Adam Silver instructed the refs to swallow the whistle.

LOL bagging on Luka this postseason when Stockton has like 15+ seasons healthy with prime Malone, good defenders, even other stars at times, and nothing to show for it.

Luka Doncic, who:
- lead the Mavs as series underdogs in every single playoff series en route to the finals this season.
- has a perfect record as the series favorite. Stockton by my count has 5 playoff upsets as series favorites.
- already has as much series wins as underdogs (4) as Stockton as a starter despite playing in a quarter of the series.
- Led both teams in scoring, assists, and rebounds at the ripe old age of 22

For fancy box score records and efficiency, sure, take Stockton, some of us want to win things in the playoffs.

And for the record the the 'easier to play game' doesn't nearly apply to guards as much. In 1990 guards leaguewide averaged a c. 53.1% TS, and 54.2% TS in 1995. Guards in 2022 averaged... 54.9% TS and even now is only c. 56% TS. The actual leaguewide improvement in offensive efficiency has far more to do with forwards and centers taking a significant leap.. Suffice it to say Stockton is not a forward or a center.

[cupcakesnake]

I think he's referring to best TRUE PG...as in, pass first and running the offense, rather than score-first and reacting to the defense. CP3, Jason Kidd, Rondo, Steve Nash fit this mold.

'Pass-first' PGs as an archetype are obsolete in 2024 lol. In good teams there are often other playmakers who can do the job of scoring and playmaking at the same time. PGs that can't apply good scoring pressure in volume (and that's not Stockton and his career 13 ppg playoffs) just don't get to dominate the ball in a way that is necessary to rack up assist counts like they used to. The closest one is Haliburton and he's still a significantly more aggressive scorer, especially pre-injury.

I just don't think they are irrelevant. Mike Conley, Chris Paul, and Kyle Lowry have held on for a long, long time by being players of this archetype. That they are still relevant at their ages suggests that it still has value to teams - there just aren't many players of this archetype coming into the league. I would, however, agree with you if a guy is basically Eric Snow - someone with no offensive skill whatsoever.

It used to be more the expectation for point guards to focus on setting the table, and only use scoring as a counter. Stockton was basically the greatest ever version of this, and the archetype stayed prevalent until the late 2000s. I think it finally ended with Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. The former was a pure playmaker who finally leaned into leveraging his shooting/driving, and the latter was a pure gunner who leaned into the fine art of floor general-ing. At the same time they were doing this, Rajon Rondo was about to go out of style (guys who's primary offensive value came from facilitation only and had no scoring pressure).

Scoring aggression has become part of the point guard's role. Stockton would have to play a different way because it's harder to create playmaking opportunities without scaring the defense into scoring. Fortunately for Stockton, he was a wicked shooter so he easily has the tools to force defenses to chase him over screens, force him into driving situations, where he can dime people up.

If anything, I think passing point guards are rarer and more valuable now. Besides Haliburton and Luka (and Lamelo if he can get healthy and figure some things out), all the passing point guards are old (you mentioned them). But these kinds of guys increasingly boost offenses insanely more than scoring guards can.

[Nate505]

He'd easily be top 5.

He's not a load managing puss, so he has availability on his side. He is up there with having the best basketball IQ in NBA history. He makes the correct pass and shoots well. He's also a great defender.

But perhaps what others are missing is just how gritty he is. He'll go down and put a punishing pick on a guy, and do it over and over even if he gets clobbered. Actually that might make him a liability in this wuss ass league today.